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Old August 12th, 2017, 01:40 PM

Warnevada Warnevada is offline
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Default Nationalist Chinese Engineers

I can find no engineer troops to buy for the Nationalist Chinese in 1937. Is this a historical fact or perhaps an oversight?
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Old August 12th, 2017, 03:44 PM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: Nationalist Chinese Engineers

Moved to the TO&E forum since its an OOB question.

The engineers are in the "Pioneer pl", available on page 2 of the infantry formations.

"Pioneer" is another word for engineer, and if you click on the formation, you will find that these troops are of the "engineer" unit class.

Also, Mobhack has a facility called "database check" which allows easy searches.

- Open Mobhack, and then click on your OOB to load it - Nationalist China here
- Click File then "database check utilities" and a new window opens for the search tool
- click on the "unit checks" tab, as you are looking for units
- enter "eng" in the search box to find any unit classes such as "engineer" or "Engineer tank", "pio" for any pioneer U/C
- Click on the unit name listed on the RHS pane of the search result and the units page will take you directly to it on the main mobhack window.

Also, if you click on the formations tab, you can do the same search for any formations that contain such units.

In addition, if you open the units tab of mobhack, there is a search box where you can search for unit names - again partial strings work fine. However the database search works on English unit class names and the unit names in an OOB may be in "National Language" for say whatever the Hungarians call their engineers. Which is "Utasz Raj" - so unless you know Hungarian, probably best as I say, to use the database search on unit class name.

Using this simple database search tool saves posting queries on the forums.

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Old September 2nd, 2017, 08:01 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Nationalist Chinese Engineers

I'm not going to add you much work this season, but I'll dare to refresh some of previous suggestions:

2 T-26 - photos of Chinese tanks are at http://dlyakota.ru/61544-tanki-t-26-v-kitae.html , and I'll also attach one.

7 Type 95 Ha-Go - one of MGs should be #245 TMG, like in Japanese unit (although it could not be used at the same time, as a cannon)

9 M5A1 Stuart - basic wartime model surely was M3A3 (which is on the photo). According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Stuart , M5A1 were used after the war. Also Zaloga's "Tank battles of the Pacific war 1941-1945" and this exhaustive article http://www.cbi-theater.com/1ptg/1ptg.html mention only M3A3 in the 1st Provisional Tank Group (besides, it would be unreasonable to deliver tanks with different engines). So, I believe, that M5A1 should be available no sooner, then mid-1945.

A (post-war?) photo of Chinese M5A1: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PLAHuaihai.jpg

84 Frigate - it should be renamed Cruiser, which it was.

266 Armrd Truck /MG - here is a photo of an armoured truck used in China (now it's French unarmoured Laffly): http://www.warwheels.net/ArmoredTruc...provINDEX.html

Maybe a better name would be just "Armoured Truck"? Cannon-armed ones were rather exceptions..

There at the bottom are interesting twin-turret armoured cars:
(there's a perfect icon 2717).

There should be also added Citroen-Kegresse armoured car, of unknown model, used by Wu-Peifu warlord (since 1/30? for several years). I assume, that the armament was 37mm Puteaux gun or MG. Polish unit 663 wz.28 AC could serve as a direct pattern. It should look similar to the French car on the page http://derela.republika.pl/wz28.htm - or photo 29505 or 29508 could serve.

282-284 L3/35 - L3 were later Italian Army designations, the Chinese would rather use original name CV-35

285 T-26a - Russian sources don't mention, that China got twin-turret T-26 - only single-turret ones (besides, the Russians generally didn't export obsolete twin-turret T-26)

287, 300 VCL M1931/T-37 - name should be just VCL M1931 (it's not Soviet T-37). (I'd call it VCL M1931 Amph or something like that)
Armament should rather be Vickers, not DT.

288 Vickers 6-Ton - users of Vickers 6-ton are well known, and China had no twin-turret Vickers for sure.

289 MHarrington 4TA
- "Reportedly China also ordered a quantity; it is not probable that any of these were delivered" (previously from http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ma...gton/tank.html).
Also T. Basarabowicz and this Russian article http://tankfront.ru/allies/china/history.html say they weren't delivered.

295, 296, 298 M4A1, M4A3, M4A4 - M4A4 was surely a main model, and apparently the only Sherman of the 1st PTG, used from 4/44 (http://www.cbi-theater.com/1ptg/1ptg.html ). AFAIK, the 1st PTG was the only active Chinese armoured unit at that time. Zaloga nor other publications don't mention other M4 variants to be used by the Chinese, especially as early, as 1942/43. The photo used here for M4A3 is also described by Zaloga as M4A4.

376 Type 97B Te-Ke - photo is MG-armed, gun-armed is 4019 or 3736

It's all about the armour, I think.
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Old September 3rd, 2017, 07:30 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Nationalist Chinese Engineers

Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
295, 296, 298 M4A1, M4A3, M4A4 - M4A4 was surely a main model, and apparently the only Sherman of the 1st PTG, used from 4/44...
It might be reasonable to delete unit 298 and replace 295 or 296 (or both) with M4A4, since these units were available earlier and there's a chance that somebody used them in a custom scenario (on the other hand, leaving a deleted unit in place with changed nationality should solve a problem with compatibility).

297 M3 - there's no info on using M3 medium tank by the Chinese, especially by the 1st PTG.

(primary source: "A History of Chinese Aviation - Encyclopedia of Aircraft and Aviation in China until 1949")

396 Kwangsi 3 - only one Kwangsi Type 3 was built, and only in 1937 (now 1930) - it was obsolete in a beginning. The photo isn't Kwangsi Type 3 anyway.
To be removed IMO. Same for unit 440.

If we don't want to waste an icon, it could be replaced as the earliest aircraft with Waco 240A fighter, reportedly capable even of taking two 100 lb bombs http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/1245/267/0#1

397 Douglas O-2MC - first delivered in 6/30 (now 6/32). Alternative heavier bomb load 2 x 120lb described in action (book p.115). Used also after Japanese attack in 6/37, until some 1939.

398 Breda Ba.27 - delivered in early 1935 (now 6/36). Already in 1937 withdrawn for training.

399,400 V-92C Corsair - in fact V-92C were delivered only in mid-34 (now 6/32). Similar V-65C were delivered from the end of 1933, both were known as "New Corsairs". However, there was also O2U-1D "Old Corsair" used from 1930, with weaker engine (425 vs 600 hp) (text attached). I don't know what was a practical difference, so it might be just made one aircraft, named eg. Vought Corsair, from 1/30. Maybe old Corsair should carry only light bombs - while New Corsair could carry in action 2 x 120lb, as described in a book (unit 400 now has only 1x110 lb).

I'll attach a photo, and here's another http://celticowboy.com/corsair_china.jpg (now it has clear Siamese markings).

Old Corsair could be easily the earliest aircraft, after removal of wrong 396 Kwangsi 3. Or there could be added Breguet 14, which was the most typical light bomber of different Chinese air forces until the end of 1920s (eg. Thai unit 302 with icon 837 of O-2MC). Typical WW1 era bomb load of Bre 14 was 32 x 8kg or 16 x 20kg or 16(8?) x 40kg, I don't know about heavier bombs.

Old Corsair could be also used as an AOP aircraft from 1/30, instead of 440 Kwangsi 3

402 Type 97 Ki-27 - it is unlikely, that the Chinese captured a significant number of newest Japanese fighters, and in 1937. One is "thought to have been captured and tested by the Chinese in 1942": http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/1017/10/0 , but A History of Chinese Aviation doesn't mention any.
The photo seems something else (a two-seater rather).

It might have been confused with obsolete Nakajima Type 91, bought in 1935: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakaji...ype_91_Fighter

It's worthy to be replaced eg. with Curtiss Hawk 75M, used from late 38. Icon 847 looks good for Hawk 75 as well.
Armament was probably four 7.62mm MGs and possibly bombs.
Photos: http://worldofwarplanes.ru/dcont/fb/...FIX=/dcont/fb/ or the same http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hkEP181-77...monstrator.png

403 Fiat Cr.32 - weren't listed as operational by 10/40 (now 7/41)

404 Boeing P-26 - precisely, Boeing 281 (export model).

405 Heinkel He 66CH - it seems, that it didn't exist: "Twelve were allegedly ordered in July 1934, but not delivered." Information, that a second order for 12 was fulfilled by sending ex-Lufwaffe He 50 "is pure fiction". (text attached)

406 Polikarpv I-15 - correct designation of this variant is "I-15 bis".

407,415 A-12 Shrike - known just as Curtiss Shrike (Model 60). A cool photo http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls...p3pqo1_500.jpg - possibly American, but the rudder looks very Chinese-like as well

408, 410 Type 10 I-16, Type 24 I-16 - names should be "I-16 Type..." (original Soviet variant designation, not Japanese "Type").
Chinese markings photo:

According to a Polish article on fighters in China, first there were used I-16 Type 5 with only 2 MGs (11/37 might be).
I-16 Type 10 with 4 MGs arrived only in spring of 1938, and I-16 with 20mm guns (type 17 and 24) - only from late 1939 (8/39?) (now 11/37)

409 Henschel Hs-123
- were available only from 4/38 (now 4/36 - text attached)

414 P-51 Mustang - delivered from 12/44 (now 3/44 - text attached)

418, 419 P-38 Lightning - in fact they were only reconnaissance unarmed Lockheed F-5s, and used only from 7/43 according to A History of Chinese Aviation..
Photo: http://wpalette.com/en/pictures/56780

To be removed IMO.
American P-38 Lightnings appeared into China-Burma theatre in 9/43 only.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Chinese_aircraft.zip (1.99 MB, 54 views)
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Old September 4th, 2017, 09:06 AM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Nationalist Chinese Engineers


412 Type 97 Ki-30 - the book doesn't even mention any Ki-30 to be captured and used by the Chinese. On the other hand, the icon 845 would be ideal for Vultee V-11 (http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/aww2/a19/a19-1.gif) - 30 were ordered and operational from 1/38, being one of typical Chinese modern bombers. Used until around 1940.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vultee_V-11 it carried 1080 lbs of bombs, had a crew of 3 and max speed 370 km/h (although Chinese ones had 1000 hp instead of 1200 hp engine). It isn't clear, if they had the same armament of 4 MGs.

Same for 429 Type 97 Ki-30 level bomber.

Also, a cool monoplane bomber, which could use the same icon, was Northrop 2E Gamma - 49 delivered in a course of 1934
upper view http://www.skytamer.com/1.2/Northrop...C-Vol1p216.jpg
I have no exact specs, but according to Russian page http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aww2/a17.html , Chinese 2E had 725 kg of bombs, 4 MGs ("or according to other sources 2") and 710 HP engine. A close model 2C (XA-16) with 925 hp engine carried 500kg of bombs developed 341 km/h http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aww2/a13.html

An important aircraft, used since 1933, was Hawk I (usually referred to as Hawk II, but A History of Chinese Aircraft claims, that the correct name was Hawk I)
Info: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/hawk_china.htm and sub-pages (two 7.62mm MGs, two bombs around 120 lb).
Photo: http://hartmann.valka.cz/panzergener...id=146&lang=en

First delivered around 5/33 and used until around 1940. Icon 844 fits quite well (He 66/Hs 123), or here is an upper view: http://rsmodels.cz/galerie/produkty/...avd2_large.jpg and line drawing http://www.aviapress.com/magaz/avv/avv200704_2.jpg

There was also Hawk III, with retracting undercarriage, but it was not much different from Hawk I, while available from late 1936.

Level bombers:

428 Fiat Br.3 - available only from late 1932 (now 1/30). It could take a heavier variant of 6 x 250lb or 2 x 500lb bombs (confirmed in a book). They ceased to be operational by 6/37 (now 12/40 - it could stay until advent of 435 Martin 139 in mid-37, or there could be added Northrop Gamma as level bomber as well).

The earliest level bomber could be Breguet 14.

431 Fiat Br.20 - only one is known to have been captured

432 SB-2 - photo has clearly Spanish markings, I'm attaching Chinese ones.

433 B-25b Mitchell
- there were used only D,H,J models, operational from 1943 (now 6/42) (text attached)

434 DB-3 - delivered already in 6/39 (now 1/40). Weren't operational by 11/41.

435 Martin 139W - delivered already in mid-37 (now 6/38)

436 Heinkel 111B-2 - a designation was He 111K (export version of 111A). Arrived already in 8/36 (now 7/37).

437 Douglas A-20
- they were to be delivered under lend-lease, but these plans were cancelled.

It could be replaced with A29 Hudson, used from 8/42, but it had quite lousy bomb load (340 kg according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Hudson) - the icon could do.

Right after the war in 1945 B-24M bombers were received. Also, after the war there were used a number of Japanese Ki-48.

That's all from my side.
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