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  #11  
Old January 31st, 2016, 06:09 PM

Firestorm Firestorm is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

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Originally Posted by Imp View Post
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You probably won't have much mobility in a situation like that, if fact your units will be "pinned" even before their first casualties and will stay that way until the shooting's over, and the geography often makes flanking difficult, so the only option left is to bury your enemy under volley after volley of bullets.
Not the only option the better option is to use artillery, then your MGs to cover any holes, maybe if needs be the odd squad.
As arty & MGs cover multiple hexes you get more bang for your points & a higher chance of killing something to.
Use 50-81mm mortars as they have a high rate of fire if suppression is what your after.
Now your squads can actually take aimed shots & kill something
I actually am a fan of creeping barrages when I have enough tubes on hand to do them. Problem there, though, is that if you do close-range fights in really thick stuff (jungle, forest) you can usually expect to suppress or kill your own men about as badly as you do the enemy. Which is realistic; something like 10% of artillery shells fired in WWI ended up hitting friendly units, so you can't expect much better in the 1930's.

Last edited by Firestorm; January 31st, 2016 at 06:20 PM..
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  #12  
Old January 31st, 2016, 07:01 PM
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DRG DRG is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

...'cause the troops knew if they "leaned into the barrage" and took a few casualties it was a cheaper price than giving the other side 10 minutes to get their MG's set up and operative again

Last edited by DRG; February 2nd, 2016 at 09:50 AM..
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  #13  
Old February 2nd, 2016, 01:07 AM
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Imp Imp is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

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I actually am a fan of creeping barrages when I have enough tubes on hand to do them. Problem there, though, is that if you do close-range fights in really thick stuff (jungle, forest) you can usually expect to suppress or kill your own men about as badly as you do the enemy. Which is realistic; something like 10% of artillery shells fired in WWI ended up hitting friendly units, so you can't expect much better in the 1930's.
Which is one of the reasons why you use small calibre arty in woods jungles.

Small arty has a high ROF so still causes reasonable suppression when adjusted.
Causes higher suppression & fewer kills than the big stuff so you just pin your own men.
Doesn't leave craters in what is slow going terrain already.
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  #14  
Old February 2nd, 2016, 08:14 PM

SFTOM@1 SFTOM@1 is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

There was a mention in an earlier post of 'house rules' for 'Z' fire. Does anyone have a list of preferred rules? In my games against the AI, my own rule is no 'Z'fire -too much of an advantage for the human (me) player.
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  #15  
Old February 3rd, 2016, 05:38 AM

zastava128 zastava128 is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

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Originally Posted by SFTOM@1 View Post
There was a mention in an earlier post of 'house rules' for 'Z' fire. Does anyone have a list of preferred rules? In my games against the AI, my own rule is no 'Z'fire -too much of an advantage for the human (me) player.
I use the same rule against the AI, for the same reason.
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  #16  
Old May 27th, 2019, 05:06 PM

Anton Anton is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

It seems from the discussion that area fire is unrealistic and so efficient that it upsets the game balance. Area fire from artillery must have an effect identical with that of a regular bombardment from the same unit. Area fire from non-artillery guns should be calculated using the same rules and algorithms as that from artillery, but MGs and rifles can be processed otherwise.

How easy it is for a HMG team to inflict casualties to an unseen 10-men rifle section in three minutes if all they know is that the enemy is hiding within a hexagonal area of 2165 square meters, compared to the same situation when the enemy is visible?

In reality, I believe, HMG's were considerably less efficient than artillery as area weapon, for two reasons:
  1. HE shells have a higher chance of getting through or around cover
  2. A gun firing HE shells covers a wider surface than an HMG. For example, the casualty radius of a ZIS-3 HE shell is 15 meters, which is quarter of a hex area.
These factors are amplified when the enemy is unseen. When the enemy is in cover the fire is more focused but its effect is alleviated. Imagine an unexposed¹ soldier lying on the bottom of a trench or behind a building wall without a direct-fire line by which a bullet could find its prey except by a lucky ricochet or secondary splinters.

It seems, therefore, that balance and realism can be improved by decreasing the area-fire efficiency of HMG and rifles, the latter by a higher factor than the former, while keeping the effects of HE the same, e.g.:

Code:
Weapon Area-fire efficiency modifier
HE     1.0
HMG    0.7
Rifle  0.5
These numbers are only for illustration, because these factors require careful balancing and testing.
¹How to model the unexposed/exposed states of a unit in cover is stand-alone question worthy of a separate discussion.
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  #17  
Old May 27th, 2019, 06:41 PM

Isto Isto is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

Artillery barrage in my experience have always done more damage than Z fire from the same unit and somehow i think it should be like that.

It is quite easy to supress normal morale infantry with small arms fire and it can definetely be used from some strange angles. I personally restrict sometimes from firing Z fire if it seems too unrealistic.
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  #18  
Old May 28th, 2019, 04:27 PM

Anton Anton is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

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Originally Posted by Isto View Post
Artillery barrage in my experience have always done more damage than Z fire from the same unit and somehow i think it should be like that.
And I see no reason for that.
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It is quite easy to supress normal morale infantry with small arms fire and it can definetely be used from some strange angles. I personally restrict sometimes from firing Z fire if it seems too unrealistic.
Well, if the majority of experienced players limit the use of this feature, or agree totally to avoid it, there must be something wrong with it. It is literally a game changer, so I propose simply to make it less efficient. A dedicated setting like Arty effectiveness might do the trick.
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  #19  
Old May 28th, 2019, 07:34 PM

Isto Isto is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

Its probably the angle of the shot. For infantry thats lying low or behind a cover there is more to hit when the shell drops on them from above and for vehicles its more likely to hit top armor.

I think its always good to give room for customization as those who do not want it may leave them as they are. Editing the preference choises might be a lot of work though. Probably could create some other problems too. Maybe some advanced off game tool that gives acces to extra preferences such as that.

What other kind of house rules have you encountered ?

Last edited by Isto; May 28th, 2019 at 07:46 PM..
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  #20  
Old May 29th, 2019, 12:18 PM

Anton Anton is offline
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Default Re: Z Fire

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Originally Posted by Isto View Post
Its probably the angle of the shot. For infantry thats lying low or behind a cover there is more to hit when the shell drops on them from above and for vehicles its more likely to hit top armor.
Excluding an unlikely direct hit, an HE shell typically lands on the ground within its blast radius of the target, so the splinters hit its side.
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I think its always good to give room for customization as those who do not want it may leave them as they are.
Yes, for it encourages the modding community.
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Originally Posted by Isto View Post
Editing the preference choises might be a lot of work though. Probably could create some other problems too. Maybe some advanced off game tool that gives acces to extra preferences such as that.
Area-fire efficiency is not much different from Artillery efficiency, so I see no reason to set them via different programs.
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What other kind of house rules have you encountered ?
Prohibit all area fire, allow area fire only for definding/delaying HMGs.
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