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  #11  
Old January 23rd, 2018, 09:19 PM

Weasel Weasel is offline
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

That will solve that problem, thanks. I wasn't complaining but it didn't make sense, and since you guys are the keeper of the grail now it fell into your lap. If SSI or GG was still around I would have asked them, you can't fault me for asking and trying to clarify it; I would think appreciation for pointing out an error on something that can confuse players.

Anyway, it is corrected now and all is sunshine (except for the rain here in BC).
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  #12  
Old January 23rd, 2018, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

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Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
If you can try loading the mortar, it doesn't work for me.
Simple...... the Dakota isn't set up to load guns......that mortar unit is a normal arty class and therefore will not load into it.......that is the MAIN reason why we introduced DF mortars so players could get mortar support into aircraft but not load AT guns and arty into things like a Dakota

That DW unit was created about a decade ago and this is the first report I have received that it's a problem....it's not a problem in later years as the larger transports have the ability to load guns..... I will look into correcting it tomorrow
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  #13  
Old January 23rd, 2018, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

I will need to spend tomorrow morning going over all of this again..... the reason the US OOB may have been set up as it was because there were no aircraft gun capable.....so the opposite of why the Candian formation failed to load and by setting up a new formation with regular mortars I might be setting myself up for a new complaint next year
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  #14  
Old January 23rd, 2018, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

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Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
That will solve that problem, thanks. I wasn't complaining but it didn't make sense, and since you guys are the keeper of the grail now it fell into your lap. If SSI or GG was still around I would have asked them,
one big difference is WE answer questions, SSI never did
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  #15  
Old January 23rd, 2018, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

Yep........ I was right and should have clued in right away..... the reason the US formation uses those mortars in its para formations is there is NO aircraft with gun lift capability during those years so disregard the comments about any new formation that gives regular mortars to [A] formations that don't have gun lift capability
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  #16  
Old January 23rd, 2018, 10:09 PM

Weasel Weasel is offline
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

But SSI did refund my money when I bought one of their games, the WW2 ship combat one, and it was so boring; aim at target, hit space bar to shoot, aim at target, hit space bar. I called and told them it was boring and they refunded me my money...cool.

***BTW - that mortar that won't load is a DF mortar***

Last edited by Weasel; January 23rd, 2018 at 11:35 PM..
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  #17  
Old January 24th, 2018, 03:46 AM
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

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Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
But SSI did refund my money when I bought one of their games, the WW2 ship combat one, and it was so boring; aim at target, hit space bar to shoot, aim at target, hit space bar. I called and told them it was boring and they refunded me my money...cool.

***BTW - that mortar that won't load is a DF mortar***

What game was that? The only recent SSI game with ships that I can think of (Just woke up) is Fighting Steel, and that was not boring.
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  #18  
Old January 24th, 2018, 07:01 AM
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

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Originally Posted by Weasel View Post

***BTW - that mortar that won't load is a DF mortar***
No it is not.

If it shows a mortar Icon it's a "gun" if it shows just the "crew" as infantry it's a DF.

The formation it is in is Para Pl DW[A].....DW indicated it's set up as " detached weapons"...ie a formation that has it support weapons outside the platoon instead of integrated into it.
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  #19  
Old January 24th, 2018, 08:52 AM
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Exclamation Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

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Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
I would be interested in seeing what TO&E was used to determine direct fire 81mm mortars as support; I have never heard of such a thing so a reference would be fantastic. I cannot find anything on it, but I can on indirect fire. My point really on those para btn support unit is that the mortars are not listed as DF (I guess the next patch will be so?) unlike the 60mm mortars that have DF with them. I bought them thinking they were indirect, I shouldn't have to read the manual for each unit before buying it (nor should my opponent).
No but we at least HOPE people will read the game manual before playing to understand the game mechanics ( and that includes the MOBHack help that details things like this )

OK......lets go straight to GAME BASICS which is what I should have done last night but I was distracted by other issues and this is something I thought was settled and understood over a decade ago. I forget sometimes that not everyone does understand instinctively how the game works.

Vehicle / aircraft have three carry capacity ratings all built around the one byte code limit of 255

a unit that shows a carry capacity up to 99 can carry foot passengers ONLY

....so if it has a capacity rating of 34 it can load up to 34 troops ( but NOT "guns" and NOT vehicles )

if it has a three digit carry capacity starting with a 1 then it can carry guns....so anything 1xx can carry men and guns up to the limit of xx so a unit with a 134 carry capacity can carry men AND guns (including mortars) up to the limit of 34...if it had a rating of 174 then it can carry up to 74 "weight points" including guns/mortars

if it has a carry capacity rating starting with a 2 UP TO 255 ( the largest number that can be entered) then it can carry vehicles, guns and men up to a limit of 255 "weight points"

because mortars are "guns" and we didn't want people loading and para dropping howitzers from things like Dakotas but wanted to allow some type of mortar support we created these direct fire only mortar units....that have NOTHING to do with any "official" TO&E.....it's what we had to do to allow mortar support loading into aircraft but keep players from loading things into said aircraft that they shouldn't.....so the ENTIRE reason we went to all the trouble of adding and coding DF mortars into the game was to avoid having to give transport aircraft a 1xx carry capacity then have players decide a 105mm howitzer will fit so they load it in....which would generated complaints from PBEM opponents that we were allowing players to "cheat".

THAT is why there are DF mortars in the game. It was much simpler in SPWW2 where there were gliders to carry the mortars and guns but in MBT there are larger transport aircraft that can carry guns and vehicles which "complicates" the issue ......as well not everyone understands if you para drop a normal mortar unit the game splits it into two parts when it gets kicked out the door and the player is expected to find the appropriate crew and mate it back with the appropriate mortar...integrating them was much simpler for players....it meant you could not indirect fire them but it at least gave players the ability to project fire beyond normal rifle range...so a compromise between reality and game mechanics.....again NOTHING to do with an RL "official" TO&E. Once Helicopter got large enough to carry guns they kinda/ sorta took the place of the gliders for moving indirect capable arty onto the game map.


That said I will admit that the game guide explanation of all this is a bit too brief not detailed enough and I have now expanded the explanation in the guide considerably.

Quote:
Carry Capacity

An indication of how much this unit can carry. XX means it can only carry troops, 1XX means it can carry a crewed weapon ( guns, mortars etc ), 2XX a vehicle.

Here is a more detailed explanation:

Vehicles and aircraft ( including landing craft and barges ) have three carry capacity ratings all built around the one byte code limit of 255

1/ A unit that shows a carry capacity up to 99 can carry foot passengers ONLY. If that vehicle / aircraft / barge has a "load cost" capacity rating of 34 it can load up to 34 troops ( but NOT crewed guns and NOT vehicles )

2/ If that vehicle / aircraft / barge has a three digit carry capacity starting with a 1 then it can carry crewed guns and troops ( but NOT vehicles)....so anything 1xx can carry men and guns up to the limit of xx. For example-- a unit with a 134 carry capacity can carry men AND guns (including mortars) up to the limit of 34 "load cost"...if it had a rating of 174 then it can carry up to 74 "load cost" including guns and mortars

3/ If it has a carry capacity rating starting with a 2 UP TO 255 ( the largest number that can be entered) then it can carry vehicles, guns and men up to a limit of 255 "load cost" so to use the previous examples if a vehicle / aircraft / barge has a capacity rating of 234 then it can carry troops, guns AND vehicles up to the "load cost" limit of 34
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Last edited by DRG; January 24th, 2018 at 09:47 AM..
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  #20  
Old January 24th, 2018, 05:50 PM

Weasel Weasel is offline
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Default Re: Error in Abn mtr unit?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel View Post

***BTW - that mortar that won't load is a DF mortar***
No it is not.

If it shows a mortar Icon it's a "gun" if it shows just the "crew" as infantry it's a DF.

The formation it is in is Para Pl DW[A].....DW indicated it's set up as " detached weapons"...ie a formation that has it support weapons outside the platoon instead of integrated into it.
When opening the unit and looking at the details it is listed as: 60mm DF mortar and indeed only fires direct, cannot be called in by a FOO. The DF stands for direct fire doesn't it? If there are two classes of direct fire (gun class vs crew class) only then they will have to be distinguished somehow.

Thanks for the explanation about carrying, I did know that already but very helpful to anyone else who may be following this thread.
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