2 inch mortar - small comment

[TDR]

From the Information comment re 2 inch mortars in the OOBs:
“The British 2-inch Mortar was principally a pyrotechnic weapon, commonly utilizing smoke and flare shells and rarely being issued HE shells. The 2 inch Mortar is included to allow for the availability and use of smoke at the company level, and for those rare times HE was issued.”

A couple of points on this:
Firstly I was under the very strong impression the 2 inch mortar was organic to the infantry platoon not the company.
Second, the Company was allocated mortars, from the mortar platoon, the 3 inch mortars, based on its operational needs and that allocation came from the Battalion Commander.

A reasonable TO&E for the British Infantry Battalion, June 1944 - Rifle Company is provided at:
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/...le_company.htm

As for the Australian TO&E for the Infantry Platoon – 1944:
A platoon has 1 x 2 inch Mortar with a crew of 3
Also this TO&E says the ammunition layout for the 2 inch Mortar is 12 HE and 18 Smoke. The direct implication is that HE was about as common as Smoke. Further in this particular Manual it indicates a smoke round will generate a smoke cloud normally lasting about 2 and half minutes.
Australian Reference: INFANTRY TRAINING part VIII – FIELD CRAFT, BATTLE DRILL, SECTION AND PLATOON TACTICS, 1944.

In general I believe that the 2 inch mortar should be part of the infantry platoons as they come under that control not company.
This would mean a direct re structure of the current Platoon formation in the various OOBs.

The mortar can not become a weapon in a section weapon slot as that would nullify its functionality.

Also with respect to HW use in the 2 inch mortar prior to the battle of Milne Bay, 1942, Brigadier Fields, Commander 9 Brigade, placed an ammunition/stores indent in which there was a high proportion of 2 inch HE rounds for these mortars.
When I can re-find that list I can post it as reference if so needed. It’s buried in a pile of reference papers and books some where in my office.

With respect to Australian troops many of the AMF infantry units, platoons and companies, in PNG initially were not issued with the 2 inch mortars. The AIF were. This lack of 2 inch mortars was evident in the early days of the Kokoda Track battles.
AMF Battalions were issued with the 3 inch mortars.

[Mobhack]

where was that stated? - it needs changing to platoon-level.

As a TA rifleman in the 70's - we had the silly things, supposed to be issued 1 per platoon. They stayed locked in the armoury though as considered a waste of 2 men who could be more use doing other things. (Shermuly flares did the starshell task, just as well, HE was never issued for it, and smoke grenades did OK for the task - if more was needed the Bn 81mm mortars could be tasked.)

Only ever brought out for the annual recruits training course - so they could be shown the thing. "Here is the 2 inch mortar. Here is a smoke round. loaded so. fired so, and it may even come down in the intended county if lucky. The water bowser fitted to the land Rover behind you is for putting out the grass fires, and you will find beaters in the back as well."

At least the new 51mm mortar actually has sights on it as opposed to a white line painted on the side of the tube!

You will find it in the UK/Commonwealth OOBs used as a "grenade launcher". My original OOBs omitted it as there are no flares in SP, and the smoke round cannot be issued for weapons, plus the HE round was rarely issued. But somewhere someone in the OOB design team went hog-wild with the daft little thing .

In reality if you want to hurt someone with the thing it is best to whack him round the head with the tube - though a 2in mortar (with the rarely issued HE ammo) killed the first King Tiger the Allies met in Normandy. It either flew down the turret hatch or set off ammo in the truck parked alongside it

Cheers
Andy

[TDR]

That quote from the OObs in the UK, ANZAC and at least one other.

As for this little tube's use in the 70s, well a serious bit doubtful. That time line I am not even considering.

As for its use in 1942 in the enjoyable surounds of the PNG Jungle it was more functional.

[JohnHale]

Andy,

"In reality if you want to hurt someone with the thing it is best to whack him round the head with the tube"


I remember reading a book about British equipment in WWII: apparently Monty thought the 2in Mortar was the most useless piece of junk ever issued to British forces. He was also dismissive of its smoke capability, but grudgingly accepted that it did have a (limited) use in that regard. Your opinion was shared by people in high places!

[TDR]

My point of raising the question r the 2 inch mortar is that it was a part of the weapon establishment of a standard platoon.
The question about its effectiveness in the European and North African theatres is not what I had questioned. Personally I would suspect its limited range and HE smoke effect would be a bit dubious in these theatres of operations.

As with any weapon, they all have their operating environments where they are more appropriate.
I was looking more at the SWPA where such a weapon has more potential either in terms of its kill or demoralizing effects.
As an example of the greater use of HE rounds for the 2 inch mortar in PNG on 17 July Brig J. Field, 7 Brigade, Milne Force, had an indent placed for the 2 inch mortars as: 2,800 HE and 1,400 Smoke.
This was an initial indent by Milne Force, Milne Bay. I don’t have details of continuing requests after this. 24 August the Japanese landed in Milne Bay.

Also I have attached a picture from the Buna area, as an example of the 2 inch mortar in use with the fighting there.

Picture caption is:
GIROPA POINT, PAPUA. 1943-01-02. AUSTRALIAN MANNED GENERAL STUART M3 TANKS ATTACK JAPANESE PILLBOXES IN THE FINAL ASSAULT ON BUNA. AMID SHELL TORN COCONUT TREES, A MORTAR CREW FROM D COMPANY, 2/12TH BATTALION, CROUCHES BESIDE A TANK AND FIRES ON JAPANESE TROOPS 150 YARDS AWAY WHO ARE FLEEING FROM A SMASHED PILLBOX. THEY ARE SERGEANT J. CONDON (LEFT) AND LANCE CORPORAL J. TINSLEY, WITH A 2 INCH MORTAR. THIS PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN DURING THE ACTUAL FIGHTING AND HAS THE TANK NUMBER, 7, OBLITERATED BY THE CENSOR.
(AWM)
The tank number seems to have been put back somewhere along the way.

There are other pictures where the 2 inch Mortar is being used by various platoons during the various battles in PNG.

Hence with the game I see a need to have these mortars included as part of the platoon structure not as an added extra buy on. It could be a case of an extra set of platoon structures for this theatre if it is consider irrelevant of other theatres of operations.

[Mobhack]

well - whoever did the ANZAC OOB decided not to have any 2in mortars - or more likely - whoever added all those 2in mortars to the UK and Empire forces (my original UK and Empire OOBS ignored the beastie as totally irellevant), forgot the ANZACS. The ANZAC rifle platoons (Including the Euro theatre one which is presumably for those with PIATS etc instead of Boyes) is unlike the rest.

Standard British org is
heavy inf HQ section (AT weapon and 2 inch (as option in some heavy sections for those who want it as a G/L))
3 rifle sections (LMG and rifles)

ANZAC
Heavy section as HQ
2 rifle sections
1 patrol

Here - the platoon HQ seems to be "folded" into the rifle sections, and a patrol is tacked on, perhaps to represent a detached set of scouts?. (As I did not design the OOB, I have no idea why this one differs from UK standards).

It seems the best idea for ANZAC is to make sure it has UK org in line with all the other Imperial forces, and to throw in a few heavy inf platoon HQs with the 2 inch mortar in its optional GL mode for those who want the things, while dropping the compulsory patrol element and having 3 rifle sections.

I will put that on my to-do list.

Cheers
Andy

[TDR]

I was going to question the current ANZAC Pl structure as it’s a bit strange. Anyway this seems to have solved that question alos.


With respect to the Australian platoon it would look like the following
1944 (Tropical)
PL HQ ‘section’ – 7/9 men as:
P Comd – revolver/ Owen/Austen SMG/Rifle – depended on the location and local SOPs.
Pl Sgt – Rifle
Mortar Comd – Rifle
Mortar No 1 – Owen/Austen SMG & 2 inch Mor
Mortar No 2 – Rifle
Runner – Rifle
Radio/batman – Rifle & radio (38 set)
If allocated
PIAT No1 – PIAT
PIAT No 2 - Rifle

3 x sections – 10 men each
Sect Comd – Owen/Austen SMG
NO 1 - 6 Rifleman – Rifle
Sect 2IC – Rifle
No 1 Bren – Bren
No 2 Bren – Rifle

Above as per Australian Reference: INFANTRY TRAINING part VIII – FIELD CRAFT, BATTLE DRILL, SECTION AND PLATOON TACTICS, 1944.


Now 1941 version is slightly different

PL HQ ‘section’ – 7/9 men as:
P Comd – revolver/Rifle – depended on the location and local SOPs.
Pl Sgt – Rifle
Mortar Comd – Rifle
Mortar No 1 – ? & 2 inch Mor – I suspect an SMG of sorts
Mortar No 2 – Rifle
Runner – Rifle
Radio/batman – Rifle & radio (38 set)
If allocated
ATR No1 – ATR
ATR No 2 - Rifle

3 x sections – 10 men each
Sect Comd – SMG/Rifle depends on local allocation
NO 1 - 6 Rifleman – Rifle
Sect 2IC – Rifle
No 1 Bren – Bren
No 2 Bren – Rifle


How that equates to the KIWIs in North Africa, Syria and Europe is another question. I suspect somewhat similar.

Now how all that fits into your game structure is another thing.

My personal preference is to separate the Mor and AT weapons and make them individual gprs, but that is my personal pref and I doubt that suits the game engine and other players. Too many small groups.

So how it’s all glued together is your decision.

[TDR]

Small note the 1941 version does not ahve a 3 man mortar team it was only 2 men.

The 1944 revision formally introduced the concept of the 3 man team.
So the 41 version should be:
PL HQ ‘section’ – 7/9 men as:
P Comd – revolver/Rifle – depended on the location and local SOPs.
Pl Sgt – Rifle
Mortar No 1 – ? & 2 inch Mor – I suspect an SMG of sorts
Mortar No 2 – Rifle
Runner – Rifle
Radio/batman – Rifle & radio (38 set)
If allocated
ATR No1 – ATR
ATR No 2 - Rifle

3 x sections – 10 men each
Sect Comd – SMG/Rifle depends on local allocation
NO 1 - 6 Rifleman – Rifle
Sect 2IC – Rifle
No 1 Bren – Bren
No 2 Bren – Rifle

Also in many cases in PNG Pl Comds carried rifles and all Offrs and NCOs removed their badges of rank. This was to make every one look the same so Officres and NCOs would not be picked out by Japanese snipers.