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Old November 11th, 2010, 09:15 AM
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Default Staghounds

Apart from the Dingo, this is the only AFV I’d made a note to look into, so I doubt I’ll bother you with any more this year.
If you can use this info, then great.

Over 3000 Staghounds were built by the USA, but all were sold to the British Commonwealth and a couple of other nations. The two most common versions were:

T17E1: Armoured Car......37mm M6 gun



T17E2: Anti-Aircraft.....Twin .50cal with open top turret



In SP there’s a few errors, or inconsistencies, with the Staghounds:

T17E1: Armoured Car with 37mm gun
Canadian………unit 50……(1, 4)
Canadian AOP..unit 111… (1, 4)
British…………unit 50……. (1, 4)
British AOP…..unit 111…… (1, 4, 6, 7)
ANZAC………unit 50……... (1)
ANZAC AOP…unit 111.……(1)
Indian…………unit 50…….. (1)
Indian AOP……unit 111……(1)
Polish…………unit 45………(1, 4)

T17E2: Anti-Aircraft with twin .50cal and open top turret
Polish AA……unit 184……..(1, 2, 3, 8)
Canadian AA. .unit 144…….(1, 2, 3, 8)

British AA……unit 163……..(1, 2, 5, 8)
Indian AA…….unit 163……..(1, 2, 5, 8)

1. Needs armour correction
2. Needs icon that shows open turret for AA version (most have red numbers)
3. Needs armour changed to show open top turret (red numbers instead of yellow)
4. Needs gun changed from M5 37mm to M6 37mm
5. Needs crew changed from 4 to 3
6. Needs crew changed from 4 to 5 (unless all AOPs should have crew 4)
7. Needs .30 cal BMG (The other three AOPs have 3 MG not 2, or give all AOPs 2 MG)
8. Available date for the AA version may warrant adjusting


1. Armour
Current SP armour for AC and AA version:
Front 3/5 (hull/turret)
Side 1/1 (hull/turret)
Rear 1/1 (hull/turret)

I found three sources (I referenced two of them below) that show the hull armour should be 2cm for the side and rear; and turret armour should be 3cm for the side and rear.

The front hull is a bit harder to determine, apparently two thirds of it was 25mm and one third 14mm with 30deg slope; so it could be left at 3cm.

The front turret of the AA version could be left at 5cm, as it has a 32mm shield at a 45deg slope.

The AC front turret was 45mm at 45deg, and sources say it also has a 25mm mantlet, which could give you 99mm. But photos show early versions had no mantlet, later versions do have a small mantlet.

Hull (both types)
Front 14-25mm plus 30deg slope = 16-29mm
Side 19mm
Rear 14-16mm plus 30deg slope = 17mm

AC Turret
Front 45mm at 45deg = 64mm (if add 25mm mantlet at 45deg slope = 99mm)
Side 32mm
Rear 32mm

AA Turret
Front 32mm plus 45deg slope = 45mm
Side 32mm
Rear 32mm

Possible armour:
Front 3/5-10 (hull/turret) AA turret: 5cm; AC turret: 6-10cm
Side 2/3 (hull/turret)
Rear 2/3 (hull/turret)

2. Open Turret for AA Version
The icon shows a closed turret.


It should have an open turret:


...


Here’s an icon I made that you are free to use as is, or adjust to your liking, I'll attach the BMPs to this post.


Icon0020.25 (hull) and Icon0020.26 (turret)

I can be a bit OCD, so I removed the BMG from the hull icon.

Humber AA Mk I (unit 388)
The British Humber AA Mk I uses the same Icon as the Staghound. I think the Humber should instead share an icon with the Guy AA Mk I (unit 377). The Humber design was based on the Guy, and I believe they had virtually the same hull, and both had Quad BESA MGs. AFAIK, other nations don’t have the Humber or Guy AA.

4. 37mm M6 Gun
In SP about half of the armoured cars have a 37mm M5 gun, the other half a 37mm M6. All the sources I have seen say the gun should be a M6.

5. Crew for AA version
The AA version is reported with a crew of 3, 4 and 5. It seems certain that the crew of 5 is wrong, and most sources (and the more trustworthy) say the crew was 3. The only weapon on the AA version was the twin .50cal.

6. Crew for Armoured Car
Almost all sources agree that the armoured car should have a crew of 5. But I’m not sure if that was true for the AOP. In the game, only the British AOP has crew of 4.

7. Extra MG
The British AOP only has 2 MGs, other AOPs have 3 MGs. The Staghound was quite roomy inside which is why it was used as a command vehicle, so I’m not sure if they removed the BMG or CMG.
If you decide to give the AOPs only 2 MGs, one option is to remove the AAMG which was an ‘optional’ MG that was often, but not always, seen on Staghounds.

8. AA Version Available Date
The AA version doesn’t become available until August 1944 in the game. It’s tough to nail down a deployment date, but there’s some evidence that may point to an earlier date, perhaps D-Day:

Accounts of the Belgian Armoured Car Squadron and their own printed history, tell us that the Belgians did get Staghound AA cars just before landing in Europe.
http://www.warwheels.net/BritACsInEurope44_45BROWN.html

T17E2 (AA version)
Production of this vehicle ended in April 1944, with 211 vehicles accepted in 1943 and a total of 789 vehicles accepted [789 vehicles accepted in 1944 plus the 211 in 1943 for a total production run of 1,000
http://www.warwheels.net/USAArmoredC...HMediumAC.html

Contract No. W-374-ORD-1315 was for 2,000 vehicles. 1,500 were delivered in 1943 and 500 T17E2 in late 1943 (211) and 1944 (289).
http://www.staghounds.org.uk/production.aspx

When the contracts say “delivered” or “accepted” they could mean on the dock in New York for all I know… We do know the first T17E2 were produced in Oct 43 and production was ended in April 44; so it would seem odd if they weren’t deployed in time for D-Day. If anyone has any info on the deployment of the Staghound AA, I would love to hear it.

The site below lists AA Staghounds in the 21st Army group OOB in Nov 1943. But this may have only been on paper, in preparation for D-Day?
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/armour/...naissance.html

Sources for AA crew 3:
http://www.warwheels.net/StaghoundAAIndex.html

http://airlandseaweapons.devhub.com/...7e1-staghound/

Armour and M6 gun sources
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/armored-cars/t-17.asp

http://ww2armor.jexiste.fr/Files/All...Data/T17E2.htm


Cross
Attached Images
File Type: bmp Staghound AA Hull icon0020.25.bmp (23.3 KB, 85 views)
File Type: bmp Staghound AA Turret icon0020.26.bmp (23.3 KB, 79 views)

Last edited by Cross; November 11th, 2010 at 09:31 AM..
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  #2  
Old November 11th, 2010, 11:11 AM
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Default

Done, as well as the Italian and Dutch ones

Don

Last edited by DRG; November 11th, 2010 at 11:20 AM..
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Old November 11th, 2010, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Staghounds

You did your research and provided an icon as well,

Well done.

Bravo!Simon
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Old November 12th, 2010, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: Staghounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by gila View Post
You did your research and provided an icon as well,

Well done.

Bravo!Simon
Thanks Gila.

Like most WW2 wargamers I have a fascination with WW2 history, and especially for the weapons, vehicles and equipment; so researching this sort of thing is far more fun than a crossword or soduko

And despite my limited artistic ablility, I love an excuse to start up Paint.net and make a few icons.


Cross
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Old November 12th, 2010, 09:44 AM
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Default Re: Staghounds

FYI, I rebuilt the existing Icon

Don
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Old November 12th, 2010, 10:17 AM
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Default Re: Staghounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post
FYI, I rebuilt the existing Icon

Don
That's fine...I was actually hoping you would. You're a better artist than me.


Cross
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Old December 4th, 2011, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Staghounds

Looks awesome Cross!
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