"non penetrating hit" ?

[runequester]

What is the difference between a hit that does not penetrate armour (lets say it penetrates 5 but the tanks armour is 7) and a hit that the message at the bottom of the screen states is a "non-penetrating hit" ?

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

A parcially penetrating hit (5 on armour 7)has penetrated but not enough, a non penetrating hit may mean that the shell broke up, hit sloped armor and ricocheted, or hit armour sooo strong that the shell did no harm

[RERomine]

I'm not sure, but when you get a "non-penetrating hit" message, it may still cause damage. Tanks, for instance, have lots of things that can be damaged without having to have a round penetrate the armor. Gun barrels and exposed machine guns come to mind.

Keep in mind, when you get messages after a hit like "Pen 8 Arm 9 @ 0 degrees", you know you've been hit and not penetrated. It doesn't say "non-penetrating hit", however, so one would think the "non-penetrating hit" message means something more. There are lots of times I see that message and have no damage, but there are also lots of times, specifically with artillery, I have tanks stripped of main guns and machine guns that haven't been penetrated either. I usually listen to the sounds. The "twang" of ricochets and "tink" of shrapnel don't bother me. It's the dreaded "thunk" that makes me start checking for damage when I can.

[Charles22]

I may be wrong about this, but this is how I have always handled it. The sounds make no difference, but that isn't so if you are correct, as I have always chosen to ignore them, but it does seem accurate to say that the unit doesn't receieve damage from anything but a thunk, but I also cannot verify that all thunks are indicative of damage.

The only way I have found to truly know whether there has been damage or not, despite any sounds there may had been, was whether the report mentions any asterisks. More asterisks would be indicative of more severe damage. No asterisks would be no damage.

This is a little more tricky when we are talking about the reports which state "extra penetration" occurred. I think it still sticks to the aforesaid rule of asterisks, but it's more difficult to verify that simply because there's much more data to read at that point and even at maximum message delay I cannot read it all in time. I have also not determined whether you will ever see an "extra penetration" message if the original round hasn't actually done any gamewise damage or not. I also cannot tell you whether these sort of messages are always accompanied by asterisks or not, but I can tell you that usually the original penetration isn't sufficient to cause damage, but "often" the "extra penetration" is.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Just tested it a bit, non penetrating hits can cause mobility kill, but crew or system damage didnt happened to me, is it possible?

[Cross]

Regarding damage sounds.

ReRomine is right that the 'thunk' sound (22.wav) is more likely to indicate damage. But that is not always true.

cheers,
Cross

[Charles22]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

Just tested it a bit, non penetrating hits can cause mobility kill, but crew or system damage didnt happened to me, is it possible?

Well yes, mobility damage is are normal under any type of hit, but I think even there you will have, should you have time to see it or not, that there is an asterisk damage indicator that goes up. I don't know, I haven't seen one in a while, but if the asterisks number indicates the level of damage, then you would think that all mobility kills would register only one asterisk. I could swear I have seen mobility damaged as with a wholoe slew of asterisks, but something tells me those asterisks, are not wrote out the same way as another part of the unit (for example, using three empty spaces before stating the asterisks instead of one space) being damaged. Also, whomever decided the asterisk amount may had decided that losing mobility on a tank is far more crucial than I would, therefore such a thing would seem to go against the grain that more asterisks is worse damage.

As far as the crew or system damage coming about due to non-penetrating hits, this is either entirely the case, or very nearly the case. As far as I have seen, it's VERY rare to lose crew on mobility losses, though IRL it may be more possible than ingame, that is, if you have the vehicle unbuttoned. As far as system damage goes, my guess would be that such a thing is normal, as I normally don't bother looking, but when I think harder about it, it seems to me that mobility losses should be also reflected with some sort of system loss. Perhaps the mobility isn't considered part of the system gamewise, which is a bit strange if I am correct about the asterisks assigned to an immobility and that they may value such hits a lot more critically than I would.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Actually the * represent damage done to the vehicle, that can be crew dead & wounded or weapons damage, but recently i had an uncommon thing, a ju87 strafed 1 of my shermans with its 37mm and top hit it, resulting in a mobility kill, weird isnt it?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

Actually the * represent damage done to the vehicle, that can be crew dead & wounded or weapons damage, but recently i had an uncommon thing, a ju87 strafed 1 of my shermans with its 37mm and top hit it, resulting in a mobility kill, weird isnt it?

Well then consider what a 37mm round through the rear deck would do to the overall health of the engine.....

Don

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

Actually the * represent damage done to the vehicle, that can be crew dead & wounded or weapons damage, but recently i had an uncommon thing, a ju87 strafed 1 of my shermans with its 37mm and top hit it, resulting in a mobility kill, weird isnt it?

Nope - totally in the game's design from the 90s onwards.

Side and rear hits as well as top hits that penetrate are more likely to cause engine kills.

Non-penetrating hits on the side can cause track damage hits. AP more likely than HE, and bigger WH size more likely than small - a 5cm popgun mortar can do it, but a 15cm SiG is better for track disassembly !.

It is the primary way to kill Char Bs, Matildas etc with 37mm ATG - go for a lot of side hits till track is broken, and if morale is low (usually is after 10-20 or so hits!) and esp if own troops are known nearby (5 or 6 hexes) then the crew is likely to bail in the reaction phase eventually.

My standard tactic for Char-bs is a hail of fire on an isolated individual from 10 or less hexes from the entire 5 tank platoon into his flanks from ambush. If he runs away next turn - shoot him up the kilt. Demoralised retreaters with a track hit result usually will insta-bail.

Heavy infantry sections with 50/60mm mortars can do this too, especially to lighter AFV.

(An immobilised vehicle is an easier infantry assault target, BTW)


Andy