Fixes for the iraqi OOB

[Pibwl]

150 Su-7BMK - earliest date of delivery found in Internet is 1968 (now 1/67), however according to a Polish monograph article on Su-7 [nTW 2/1997], first were delivered in 1972. It could carry 4 x500 kg bombs (now 4x250 kg). Better icon is 2158 - Iraqi Su-7 wore a camouflage (pictures http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww3/a/271/19/0 )

151 Su-7BMK - usage from 1968 (or 1972) and icon - see above.

152 Su-17MK-4 - should be named Su-22M4 (export version of Soviet Su-17M4). In addition to guided missiles, it can carry 2-4 bombs 250 kg.

154, 155 Su-20 - better picture of Su-20 (although Polish) is 29126 - current one 11152 are later Su-17(22)M3/4, with a "hump" behind a cab.

156 Su-22M-4 - now available from 1/74 - it should be in fact earlier model Su-22M (production of Su-22M-4 started in 1983). I don't know when Iraq received Su-22M, but they were produced and exported from 1979, so 1/79 should be earliest date. In addition to missiles it could carry eg. 2x250kg bombs.

Iraq could also use Su-22M with 1 Kh-28 ARM (weapon #209 in Russian oob), used from some 1984 to some 1997.

Su-20s have radio RF, Su-22s - laser RF

251 L-29 Delfin - it's very doubtful, if it could carry 250 kg bombs - according to Czech page http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/6443 , 2x100 kg.

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

154, 155 Su-20 - better picture of Su-20 (although Polish) is 29126 - current one 11152 are later Su-17(22)M3/4, with a "hump" behind a cab.

Two things

1/ IDK which version of the Iraqi OOB you using because units 154 and 155 use PIC 11119 and have NEVER used PIC 11152. I think you're looking at Polish OOB unit 154. That uses 11152 ( see 2/ )

2/ I have already replaced 1/10th of the photos in the game so comments about a "better picture" generally do not apply ESPECIALLY if the photo is poor quality or looks like it dates back to SP2. In this case 11152 and about 600 others have already been replaced.


Don

[Pibwl]

...I recall wanted to write "current one AND 11152" :-)

Michal

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

150 Su-7BMK - earliest date of delivery found in Internet is 1968 (now 1/67), however according to a Polish monograph article on Su-7 [nTW 2/1997], first were delivered in 1972. It could carry 4 x500 kg bombs (now 4x250 kg). Better icon is 2158 - Iraqi Su-7 wore a camouflage (pictures http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww3/a/271/19/0 )

Perhaps it could carry that much but 4 x 250 is more sensible, as there is question of under what loadout configuration and operational range such 4 x 500 load was possible. If they had to give up the underbelly fuel tanks then it was a non start for most practical applications. Were the outer wing hardpoints rated for 500kg bombs? I vaguely recall this not being the case but I will have to check.

152 Su-17MK-4 - should be named Su-22M4 (export version of Soviet Su-17M4). In addition to guided missiles, it can carry 2-4 bombs 250 kg.

As far as I have read bombs were probably not carried together with Kh-29. The actual load was something like one kh-29, an ECM pod, a drop tank and UB-32 rocket pod used as counterweight of sort.

156 Su-22M-4 - now available from 1/74 - it should be in fact earlier model Su-22M (production of Su-22M-4 started in 1983). I don't know when Iraq received Su-22M, but they were produced and exported from 1979, so 1/79 should be earliest date. In addition to missiles it could carry eg. 2x250kg bombs

Same as above except that the missile in question was used operationally very few times, perhaps just once.

Iraq could also use Su-22M with 1 Kh-28 ARM (weapon #209 in Russian oob), used from some 1984 to some 1997.

This would in fact be the most correct decision as the Kh-28 was pretty much the only ARM used by the iraqi air force for dedicated SEAD missions, even if some others types were on stock. It is however a bit more complicated than that, because of the shortage of weapon slots. I would suggest something along the lines of this:

1) Weapon n. 217 ARMAT ARM overwritten with weapon n. 216 Kh-28 ARM from Russian OOB

2) Unit 167 MIrage F-1EQ overwritten with a clone of unit 156 SU-22M-4 suitably reclassed as class 214 SEAD Aircraft and armed with one Kh-28. It could be renamed SU-22M3 and have vision reduced to zero.

3)Formation 139 SEAD Plane
To be deleted as it currently uses a F-16 armed ARMAT.
The US has been willing to sell Iraq only a fairly limited range of air to ground ordnance: only Maverick missiles, Paveway LGBs, Mk 82 and Mk 84 bombs have been offered/sold. It is a good bet that SEAD weapons are not probably going to be in the cards before 2020

Formation n. 138 is available from 1/1979 to 4/2003. This might warrant some tweaking in the future but it should be good enough for the time being, unless someone has better info.

[Suhiir]

I recall reading once that an F-4 could get off the ground carrying 24 x 500# bombs. And as long as the target was at the far end of the runway it had the operational range with that load to bomb it.

For the most part aircraft carry about half what they are capable of getting off the ground with because they need fuel to get to the target and loiter till they're called in. And getting home after is always nice too.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Perhaps it could carry that much but 4 x 250 is more sensible, as there is question of under what loadout configuration and operational range such 4 x 500 load was possible. If they had to give up the underbelly fuel tanks then it was a non start for most practical applications. Were the outer wing hardpoints rated for 500kg bombs? I vaguely recall this not being the case but I will have to check.

If you want to treat the plane as if it had underbelly fuel tanks, than you're right - outer hardpoints for 6-hardpoint variant could carry 250 kg or so (that would make maximum 2x500 kg and 2x250kg). However, since the aircraft are little effective, they could carry bigger load possible IMHO.

Originally Posted by Marcello

As far as I have read bombs were probably not carried together with Kh-29. The actual load was something like one kh-29, an ECM pod, a drop tank and UB-32 rocket pod used as counterweight of sort.

Official Polish chart allows for a configuration 2x Kh-29 and 4 bombs 250-500 kg or 2 bombs and 2 drop tanks.

Originally Posted by Marcello

Same as above except that the missile in question was used operationally very few times, perhaps just once.

These missiles (Kh-23) were even lighter, than Kh-29. I don't know however what the practice of arranging armament of Su-22 in Iraq looked like. I only write, that these planes were capable of such load (even not a maximum one) and it's a bit waste to send them with only two missiles. Besides, I probably keep in mind photos of Polish Su-22s carrying missiles and rocket launchers or bombs.

Regards,

Michal

[DRG]

Garbage in........garbage out.

I hope the rest of the info I've been putting in is better than this. I shall remain hopeful but it partially explains why this goes on and on and on and on....

Michal


Iraq could also use Su-22M with 1 Kh-28 ARM (weapon #209 in Russian oob), used from some 1984 to some 1997.

Marcello
This would in fact be the most correct decision as the Kh-28 was pretty much the only ARM used by the Iraqi air force for dedicated SEAD missions, even if some others types were on stock. It is however a bit more complicated than that, because of the shortage of weapon slots. I would suggest something along the lines of this:

1) Weapon n. 217 ARMAT ARM overwritten with weapon n. 216 Kh-28 ARM from Russian OOB

Anybody else see the problem ??

I've been told to choose 1 Kh-28 ARM (weapon #209 in Russian oob) and choose 216 Kh-28 ARM from Russian OOB

Russian weapon #209 is the Kh-27 ARM ....NOT the Kh-28 ARM . Marcello has the correct number ASSUMING were are all talking about the same missile ( which I assume is the Kh-28 and NOT #209 the Kh-27 ARM

And yes, I'm getting just a WEE bit cranky because I've worked though 140 PAGES of "error reports" so far and I'm still not done and I would appreciate CLEAR, checked, not rushed info because I do not want to do this again next year.

OK everyone ???

IS it the Kh-28 ARM from Russian Weapon slot #216 than needs to go into the Iraqi OOB

Yes or No ?

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Formation n. 138 is available from 1/1979 to 4/2003. This might warrant some tweaking in the future but it should be good enough for the time being, unless someone has better info.

No, it's not "good enough" becasue as Michal wrote...

Iraq could also use Su-22M with 1 Kh-28 ARM .........used from some 1984 to some 1997.

Given there is only one SEAD aircraft left in the Iraqi OOB after you had me delete or overwrite the rest and it runs 1984 - 1997 then the formation needs to run that as well unless you know of other aircraft the Iraqi used as SEAD that fills the existing formation start and end dates, otherwise that formation has been changed to match the "SU-22M3" 1/84-12/97 unless you have info that the missile was in Iraqi hands to match those previous dates


Don

[Marcello]

IS it the Kh-28 ARM from Russian Weapon slot #216 than needs to go into the Iraqi OOB

Yes or No ?

Yes, the Kh-28 was the ARM of choice

Given there is only one SEAD aircraft left in the Iraqi OOB after you had me delete or overwrite the rest and it runs 1984 - 1997 then the formation needs to run that as well unless you know of other aircraft the Iraqi used as SEAD that fills the existing formation start and end dates, otherwise that formation has been changed to match the "SU-22M3" 1/84-12/97 unless you have info that the missile was in Iraqi hands to match those previous dates

I was not planning to raise this issue for this patch as in fact I am not entirely sure about initial availability date. 1984 does not sound too bad but it might have been earlier, like 1982-1983. SIPRI for example lists 1983 for delivery. I have read claims on forums about it being used operationally already in 1982. Hence my comment about leaving the initial formation availability date alone. I was planning to get a book on the iraqi air force which might have the answer but it isn't going to happen very soon.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

If you want to treat the plane as if it had underbelly fuel tanks, than you're right - outer hardpoints for 6-hardpoint variant could carry 250 kg or so (that would make maximum 2x500 kg and 2x250kg). However, since the aircraft are little effective, they could carry bigger load possible IMHO.

That's the reasonthey switched to the Su-17. Actually more often than not aircraft of this vintage (Mig-21/Su-7) would go in combat with a couple of UB-16 rocket pods, which were as effective in reality as they are in the game: very little.
Many of the comments I found about the 57mm rockets could not be reported in polite company. Yet they were used for lack of anything better.

Official Polish chart allows for a configuration 2x Kh-29 and 4 bombs 250-500 kg or 2 bombs and 2 drop tanks

Actually iraqi configuration was as follows:



Depiction of Su-22 armed with Kh-28 can be founf here but no mention of initial availability date:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_208.shtml