2004 Presidential Election.

[Unknown_Enemy]

I just hope Bush will get thrown out as his father so I'll be able to keep saying "I love USA" without getting a bashing.

**running the hell out of the thread before the flamewar***

[Shane Watson]

Everything you need to know to make up your mind about the election is here:
http://www.jibjab.com/default.asp

Cheers,
~S

[Renegade 13]

Gozra said:
IT has been made abundantly clear that there are people/organizations that intend to destroy The US and Freedom.

Two points:

1. It isn't really the US that those people/organizations are attacking, its the entire western philosophy and civilization. The US is only attacked more than other western countries due to its increased influence, and the fact that it is the epitome of what those anti-Western people hate. There are in fact other countries threatened by terrorists, such as Britain, Canada, and any other western country.

2. You mentioned "The US and Freedom" as though they were inseparable concepts, as though the US is the only "free" country. It is not, and Freedom could exist without the US, and the US could exist without freedom. They are not mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact, with some of the laws that have been enacted in the US, such as the Patriot Act (that's what its called isn't it?), I'd say that Canada is much more a "free" country than the US is now.

I'm not intending to step on any toes here, or offend anyone, I just felt I had to state my opinion. Note that it is NOT anti-US. Thanks.

[Phoenix-D]

FLX said:
I'm starting to think that you really deserve watherver happens to you. Think before voting, that's all. You live in a war/fear-of-war based economy, doing what you want, not signing any treaty that could make this a little fairer (i.e. the nuclear dissarming, the Kyoto protocols, etc...). Not Kerry nor Bush will improve this situation, i'm sure. Keeping growing hate amongst everybody else is dangerous. An old spanish proverb says: Breed crows and they will rip your eyes.

The Kyoto protocol was fatally flawed. To whit- it claimed to be purely about the enviroment, but it didn't tie the hands of everyone equally. Pollution is pollution, the place of origin makes little difference..

Several other treaties are the same way; they have more to do with "[censored] the US" then their stated goals. Not unlike the bills in congress that have one title and some action on that, then 50 completely unrelated sections; the unrelated bits are stuffed in because they would never pass on their own -and- if your opponent votes against them you can say he voted against, say, cracking down on child exploitation.

[csebal]

Well, i hate to discuss politics, as it mostly leads to flame wars, but i got something on the topic a few months ago from a friend, i tought it may be worth sharing

GEORGE W. BUSH

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
202-456-1111

president@whitehouse.gov

LAW ENFORCEMENT:
I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been lost and is not available.

MILITARY:
I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard I avoided combat duty in Vietnam.

COLLEGE:
I graduated from Yale University with a C- average. I was an active cheerleader.

PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:
I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. Therefore, I began a career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in 1975. I bought an oil company, but found no oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt just after I sold all my stock. I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal which acquired land using taxpayer money. With campaign help from my father and donations from our right-wing friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:
I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America. I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas Treasury by billions in borrowed money. I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.

With assistance from my brother, governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing the election by possibly 500,000 votes.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:
I am the first President in US history to enter office with a criminal record. I spent the US surplus and successfully bankrupted the U.S.Treasury. I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S.history. I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month
period. I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period. In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continued every month throughout my Presidency to date.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her. I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. President. I am the all-time US and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations. My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S.History,Enron. My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during the election decision of 2000. I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating any one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed. I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history. I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in U.S. history. I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States Government.

I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history. I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission. I withdrew the U.S.from the World Court of Law. I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention

I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any President since the advent of television. I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history. I
garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history. I have set the
all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest main public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

I have invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost to taxpayers of over one billion dollars per week. I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, preemptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation (under the guise of searching for Weapons of Mass Destruction). I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. Citizens, and the world community. In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq, then blamed the
lies on our British friends. I am now supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD. This is to fulfill my so far failed pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to justice.

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in war time. I am also the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%)
view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view. All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All records or minutes
from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

PLEASE CONSIDER ME WHEN VOTING IN 2004.

I'm not from the US, so i cant confirm the details about internal politics and stuff written in that email snippet, but i can tell you, that this one is painfully true:
"I am also the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security."

From the outside, Bush seems like a bullying jackass, who pays no attention to international laws or treaties, so basically doesnt gives sh*t about international politics. For him, there seem to be two sides: with me, or against me..

Considering the ammount of 'anti-planet' bombs he has at hand, this is more than scary.

That kind of politics will one day break the bond between the EU and the USA, and im not sure we wanna live trough that, no matter which continent we live on.

Take the current war for example: it has nothing to do with terrorism, that may have been the causus belli, the reason for the war, but i think the 'evidence' the whole war was based on was already proved wrong.

What happened? The Intelligence Agency apologized for the mistake, and the war went on.

The only reason Bush has a chance is, that its not the world that has to elect the new US president, but the people living there. I just hope they make the right choice.

The above post is not intended to offend anyone: my only problem with the USA to date is its president, which can - and hopefully will - change soon.

[Mephisto]

*Moderator mode /on*
Hi all!
As most of us know, all of this has been beaten to death already in other threads and I really see no connection to SEIV here. I will move the thread to the general discussion area where it belongs and leave a shadow here. And, please, remember, keep it civil, different people have different views on the world.
*Moderator mode /off*

[Atrocities]

Bush's tax cuts are what stalled the lay offs in my area. My old company has even stated that if not for the tax cuts they would have closed their doors. And here comes Kerry with his TAX increases and people think he is the greatest thing to walk on water since GOD.

He is a liar, a backstabbing MF, and to top it all off, he VOTED to cut the funding of the CIA, FBI, and NSA following the first attack on the trade center. And now he says what happened on 9-11 was all Bushes fault? Please.

He blames the economy in the US on Bush, when it was Bush who inheritied Clintons economy which started to go down hill in 97 after he opened the flood gates for free trade with China. A note to all you kiddies, China makes things a lot cheaper than we can here in the US, and they flooded our markets with their inferior products and swamped many business right out of business. And then we still have the NAFT problem that Clinton signed in.

No, I think it is best that we keep BUSH for another four yeats in order to KEEP what little jobs we do have and grow more.

[Phoenix-D]

If you wanted to get anal about it, we could have gone after Iraq at any time; they never really fullfilled the conditions of the 1991 cease-fire.

By the time we knew for sure no significant WMDs would be found the war was over; and even if not, going in shooting things up and leaving is NOT an option.

[Atrocities]

csebal - That article is not at all accurate and it is designed to be as inflamatory as possible. You should have read the one about Clinton, and Gore a few years ago. And the one about Kerry is a lot better read than this one about Bush, and is backed up by facts and not some liberal democrates imagination.

[Fyron]

With assistance from my brother, governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing the election by possibly 500,000 votes.

Don't you just love the sheer ignorance of the US political system that causes people to say such things? The total, national popular vote is NOT a factor in the election of the President of the US. It never has been. This is completely irrelevant to Bush having won the election.

What causes a person to win the Presidential election is winning a majority of votes in the electoral college, which is NOT based on population directly. It is based on 2 votes per state + X votes based on population. Thus, 100 of the votes have nothing to do with population, but with geography. Many of them come from relatively very low population states. Further befuddling the issue is the fact that many states give their _entire_ electoral vote count to the candidate that wins the election in that state.

These things are what allows discrepencies between total popular vote and winner of the election to occur. Usually, the two go to the same person. But a few times (I think Bush Jr. was the 3rd), it has happened that the national popular vote and the electoral vote do not end up going to the same person. There is nothing illegal or fishy about this, at all. It is how the Presidential election system in the US works. Now, you be of the opinion that it is silly, and the election should be based entirely on the popular vote. You may or may not be right. But, saying that Bush did something wrong in 2000 just because he did not win the popular vote is wrong.

Now, whether Bush did something shady to win the vote in Florida is an entirely separate issue. It should NOT be confused with overall popular vote, which is, again, not related to who wins the US Presidential election. The whole issue was a big mess. Who knows what really happened. Gore did voluntarily cede the election to Bush at the end, so regardless of whether he legitimately won the Florida election, he did win the overall election, due to Gore ceding it to him. There is no contesting that fact.