Helicopter armor

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by paulo

Its my understanding that helos are only supposed to be used at a distance beyond small arms fire and RPGs. Look up videos on youtube re American helos engaging insurgents- its always at a great distance. Helos buzzing and strafing ground troops at close range is Hollywood stuff

While it's 100% correct that helos "are suppose to be used at a distance beyond small arms fire and RPGs" unfortunately reality, and the extraordinary dedication of Medivac pilots often means this isn't the case.

The infamous helo attack from "Apocalypse Now" is an excellent example of what real helos in action looks like.
Some attacks are from range, some are in-your-face.

[Firestorm]

I don't use helos very often, but when I do I tend to use them the same way I use horse cavalry in WinSPWW2: fast, potent but fragile offensive force. You use them as a mobile reserve to deal with enemy breakthroughs and other trouble spots, you send them behind the lines to bash the enemy's artillery park, or you use them at the end to corral and finish off a broken force.

I just thought it was natural for them to die quickly when a still-potent force starts shooting at them. I guess not.

[DRG]

Well, that's what some people belive

[sabresandy]

I'd generally agree, up to a point. If my armored helis start coming under fire from Iglas and Shilkas (or Stingers and Vulcans), I'd expect them to die off; less so for rifle-caliber AAMGs.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Things not talked about...
1. Using helos like tanks you need to terrain mask them where you can. I'm willing to bet a 1/3 of the players go charging in. The assault aspect is more Cold War then anything where NATO had a distinct disadvantage in numbers. More finesse is needed in the modern battlefield.

2. Like on map arty, don't hover or stay in the same area more then a couple of turns. If you do you deserve what you get...shot down or damaged normally. And to follow through, your arty will come under fire normally by mortars first and the big guns next for the same reason. AI hates on map arty.

3. To the main topic as started...Lookdown TI/GSR is much more effective than "look at" TI/GSR. Height of eye is a huge advantage. In my world if I'm moving my helo in a "search mode" (Segments of say 6-10 hexes.) where I suspect enemy are, and it comes upon the enemy unit(s), especially if moving, the helo should have the advantage. It is after all actively seeking contact and the "finger is on the trigger". If you fly across the battlefield then as is in the game your both in that "ah poop" mode as is now.

4. Helos for about the last 20yrs. or so have more redundent systems on board, also more recently within the last maybe ten years your seeing these systems protected by armor as well. Mi-35is protected against 35mm or 37mm rounds the AH-1Z is protected against 23mm rounds. Transport helos have add on armor plating added when operating in combat zones (Belly area.) plus what I've already noted above.

5. Defensively...They are quieter, faster and more manuverable, have as much EW as a jet in many cases with full defensive suites to include chaff and flares such as "Angel Fire" this includes transports. Don't believe me, I'll provide all the pics you want upon request of course.

6. I'm not asking to see my helo going spinning around the screen, but crew survibility has always been an issue with me here. All helo pilots learn to auto-rotate their birds and generally can safely land them. In urban or mountianous terrian the odds go down significantly however, this is better then the zero chance they have now for crews and passengers, though not helos the point can still be made, a bridge in France comes to mind right now known as "Pegasus" if you'd read the history it would support my point here. This is to my mind a major issue, truth is many crews live to fly another day and troops survive to fight. The crew issue goes to exprience level of crews directly not unlike tank crews in general.

7. Attack Helos: Save slots and alot them as in real life. I can think of at least 10-15 countries this can be applied. You want them playing the "big boys" then you should pay for them as the real "big boys" use them-in pairs. Developed countries since Vietnam have flown attack helos in pairs to be mutual supporting for overwatch and targeting purposes. What's to be gained besides saving some slots? Well maybe the player will take better care of them if it costs more to use them. And for the player (And AI.) well after they pay for them they can still use them how ever they want. Not much downside if you think about it. But if you pay attention to the AI's general use of Attack Helos, it tends to keep them paired and mutually supporting each, based on my years of playing against th AI.

8. RTB part of the game. Some minor tweeking before they do it maybe. Just "freezing" and running due to suppression not so sure. I think from what I've read and just in general as a thought better to go home with empty (Or near empty.) weapons racks. As the game operates now though it seems more exprienced crews don't RTB as soon as less exprienced crews. Is this a faultly observation on my part?

9. Finally they are not invincible. A hit to the tail rotor that causes damage to it, you won't be in the air long, and it will be harder to auto-rotate down. It is for instance felt that the crew of "Super Six" could've survived the RPG hit they took but what killed them was the crash site in a narrow alley and wall they ended up hitting.

Autorotation can be accomplished at altitude ref. provided on techique and video shows a S-92 Mil. transport at max. payload wieght doing it.
http://helicopterflight.net/autorotation.htm
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...7400CD7C6DFA5E



My thoughts for what their worth.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

1 & 2) Just like SP-ATGs/SP-ATGMs helos are a "shoot-n-scoot" weapon system.
Myself I move at low altitude to a firing point and the following turn execute a pop-up and fire my missiles.
Of course the pop-up immediately attracts the fire of every AA weapon the opposition possesses. But you can get around this to an extent by having either scout helos or another attack helo (they usually come in pairs) skim along popping up and down (low to high altitude) at the extreme range of opposition AA capability to draw fire before your intended firing unit pokes it nose out.

3) For my part I've been rather disappointed at the "lookdown" capability of helos in general and TI/GSR equipped ones in specific. They very rarely spot opposition infantry until they move right next to it triggering an opportunity fire which very frequently damages the helo (even if its only small arms fire vs an armored helo).

[sabresandy]

Yeah, terrain masking is incredibly important; swarm of MANPADS are terrible, terrible things to see. 8 or 10 Strela-2Ms rising from the trees are a horrible if familiar sight before I learned the importance of ridges.

[shahadi]

While researching US Army Attack Helicopter doctrine, I found several interesting reads on the battle that seemingly has changed the role of attack helicopters from deep-strike missions to CAS. The article, "Renaissance of the Attack Helicopter in the Close Fight," gives several accounts of the battle that occurred on March 23, 2003 involving the 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment with a discussion of asymmetric warfare and the emerging role of attack helicopters.

[iln82]

Originally Posted by Firestorm

I just thought it was natural for them to die quickly when a still-potent force starts shooting at them. I guess not.

So it's natural that an Apache or Hind that are protected from heavy caliber gun fire, should retreat when they suffer damage (1) from rifle fire. What's the point of having an armored helicopter then??? A tank or IFV does not retreat when it's damaged; why should an attack helicopter? (Note that I am talking about damage up to (2) and armored helos only; obviously a transport would retreat even with minimum damage...)
PS: I have no problem with helos taking evasive maneuvers when being fired on; however I though they would fly away from enemy fire rather than towards it (as it unfortunately happens now in the game...)

[shahadi]

I'm currently authoring a scenario using attack helos, CAS with an interdiction mission as well. What I'm researching is how the Vipers react given higher EW numbers. The higher numbers seem to enable the Vipers to stick and fight whereas at their stated EW of 9 they would bug out. Also, I have significantly increased the EW of Venoms with satisfactory results too. While I've modified EW numbers, the armor ratings remain unchanged.