.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Air Assault Task Force- Save $8.00
winSPMBT: Main Battle Tank- Save $6.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPWW2
Notices


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 3rd, 2018, 06:14 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 87
Thanks: 5
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Kiwikkiwik is on a distinguished road
Default Map scale

There is an elephant in this room, here it is exposed.

If a stuart light tank is moving down the road at top speed, 58 kph, this translates into 966m/minute or 19 hexes/minute. This is how far the vehicle can travel in one turn suggesting that a game turn is one minute.
It takes me about 2 minutes to jog 300m in just runners, so Infantry can run at about 150m/min or 3 hexes/minute.
As infantry can move 6 hexes a turn then this suggests that a game turn is about two minutes.
So using distance travelled as the measure of turn length then turns are around 1-2 minutes long
The 1-2 minute turn time is very conservative. Probably the tank is never going to move at top speed and the infantry man is weighed down with equipment.

A typical WW2 75mm AT or tank gun tank has a rate of fire (ROF) of 10 shots or better PER MINUTE
So the 75mm AT or tank gun should get at least 10 shots at the stuart as it traverses its 19 hexes during a turn of one minute. But it only gets 3 shots. Out by a factor of 3. Missing 7 of the shots it should get in the turn of 1 minute.
Using 75mm AT or tank gun ROF as the measure of turn length then each turn is around 20 seconds.
The same AT or tank gun firing HE at the infantry should get 20 shots as the infantry moves its 6 hexes in 2 minutes. It only gets 3.
So using 75mm gun ROF against infantry as the measure of turn length then each turn is around 10 seconds.

This is using 1-2 minute turns, if the turns are actually longer then the ROF/Movement discrepancy is much much greater, if a turn is meant to be 4 minutes then the Stuart should be shot at by the AT gun 40 times, not 3, as it moves its 19 hexes.

Because distance travelled and ROF are inconsistent across units there are other examples that give worse or better results but most show this same order of discrepancy, massive.

So moving units are attracting only a small fraction of the fire they should be exposed too for the distance travelled.
Movement is greatly favoured at the expense of fire. Fire and movement should be equal for a realistic game.

I think most people would agree that the map and icon scales don't match, if the icons were shrunk to match the map scale they would be tiny dots, so not much fun. But the map scale can be changed to match the Icons scale.
The Icons, units, houses, trees etc are about the size they would be in a 10m hex. So change the map scale from 50m to 10m hexes.

This change of map scale not only shows the actual correct distance between units on the Icon scale BUT ALSO FIXES THE ROF VS DISTANCE TRAVELLED DISCREPANCY.

I have simulated the effect of changing the 50m hexes to 10m hexes by multiplying weapons range by 5. I find that you can leave everything else virtually as is, and the game plays MUCH BETTER.
Because.
ROF now corresponds to turn time.
The ability to cross massive swathes of beaten ground without being shot at disappears from the game.
You can still soak off a units shots to advance unshotat but for example with infantry on 10m hexes, after advancing your 300m allocated that turn you now still have 25 hexes to travel to the target whereas before you are on top of your target straight away that turn. So teleporting forward no longer an option.
Units that had to be stacked in one hex how have 20 or so to choose from but are still covering exactly the same frontage. So a lot less staking is required, this largely removes the necessary but unrealistic penalty of shared suppression from being fired at when stacked in the same hex.
Short range weapons, light mortars, Some HEAT weapons etc now make more sense, they no longer get overrun after a one or two turns.
Suppress and swarm style is much harder to play, the game becomes much more tactical to play.

Scales within the game would need to be changed by a factor of 5.
for example
Map height changes could be 1m instead of 5m.
The scale on WW2_APCalc.exe needs to be factors of 10 not 50
Rally range changes from 5 to 25 or maybe 20
Speed and ROF stay as they are, Fire control, Range finder and Accuracy Probably need to be tweeked but they played OK in my test games.
Spotting to me seems OK as is.

Some other advantages of the change would be
Eases the exaggerated suppression overflow effect of the blast circles into neighbouring hexes as units are more spread out.
With 10m hexes short range weapons, grenades SMGs panzerfausts and so on can be ranged right.
Visibility lowers from 5 kilometers to 1 k, but might be factored up to 3 k maybe, a more practical battle range, especially for identifying friend from foe.
When Icon and map scale match, firepower is no longer underestimated.

As a programmer I would say that the change is straightforward, tedious and doable. No algorithms need changing, just scaling and variables. If it appears too difficult I can help. It is a relatively simple change to make for an absolutely massive benefit.
Alternately the hexes could be reduced by a factor of 2 to 25m, or by 3/10 to 15m etc. But a 10m hex brings the ROF up to a level which matchs about a 4 minute turn which seems to be about as long as a turn should be.

Please do not dismiss this post out of hand. Please try a test game with ranges multiplied by 5 first.
  #2  
Old July 3rd, 2018, 10:53 AM
Imp's Avatar

Imp Imp is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Uk
Posts: 2,878
Thanks: 65
Thanked 356 Times in 291 Posts
Imp is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Map scale

I am a bit confused changing the hex scale will not stop change the number of shots a unit takes against a moving target so it will still move the same number of hexes for the same number of fires. Makes no diffrence to the game really apart from time and now a map does not cover much area.
Are you sure about vehicle move speeds I worked out some years back and they are close, certainly way closer than the competition.

Regarding ROF it is affected by experience, 3 for an ATG is low.
Unsuppressed firer
ROF for infantry seems fine to me they can normally shoot at another infantry unit in every hex it enters.
Vehicles is fine to within the confines of the game. That ATG will get a ROF probably of between 3 & 6 depending on the units experience in the game.
6 aimed shots a minute I would think is very good for a gun by modern day standards vs a moving target.
To me the current setup feels right normally I can handle things but sometimes my guns get overwhelmed.
The big issue with changing hex scale to 10m is accuracy a WWll tank should be pretty accurate out to 30 hexes let’s not even think about modern stuff. Spotting will be all wrong infantry will often be under 100m before seen.
__________________
John
  #3  
Old July 3rd, 2018, 02:14 PM
scorpio_rocks's Avatar

scorpio_rocks scorpio_rocks is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 836
Thanks: 181
Thanked 295 Times in 228 Posts
scorpio_rocks is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Map scale

I think your ROF data may be off... Whilst the theoretical rate of fire may be in the order of magnitude of 10 or 20 - the practical aimed combat RoF at a moving target is MUCH less!


For example the Sherman tank had a "book" ROF of 20 rounds per minute - yet only carried 6 "ready" rounds in the turret after that the loader had to open the floor and reach down into the magazine for the next 30 ish after that he had to crawl to access the magazine behind the hull gunner (not done in combat). ADD to that they still have to lay the gun on a fast moving target (even with the Sherman's good turret traverse speed of around 24 degrees per second), and work in a cramped space with cordite smoke and spent casings hampering them! There are accounts from Italy where the Sherman was used in a sustained fire role (no constant laying of gun, all hatches open, not moving or in combat, etc) where people marvelled that they consistently managed a rate of fire approaching ONE round per minute!


I think the game allows plenty enough firing opportunities.
__________________

"Gentlemen, when the enemy is committed to a mistake - we must not interrupt him too soon."
Horatio Nelson.
Updated 2017 SPMBT Roundel Objectives Mod
Updated SPMBT Small ID Flags Mod
  #4  
Old July 3rd, 2018, 09:38 PM

jivemi jivemi is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Philippines
Posts: 424
Thanks: 280
Thanked 99 Times in 79 Posts
jivemi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Map scale

OK, so unit speeds are overstated (mine are in mph) given the time frame. Infantry moving 6 hexes in 3 minutes (reported at 6 mph) are actually going somewhat less than 4 mph, varying on whether you're using yards or meters. Roughly splitting the difference it's about 3.6 mph. So dividing that by 6 means a unit moving only 1 hex per turn is going less than two-thirds of a mph, not the 2 mph displayed. Therefore a Stuart traveling along a road at full MP (19) is going at only about 11-12 mph, not 35 or so (converting from 58 kph). Like hit chances one should take in-game speed figures with a grain of salt.

As for shots per minute it seems that SP gives firing opportunities which are consistent with game scale and parameters (like hitting or target toughness), not practice range figures or actual combat results (an overwhelming majority of rounds missed their targets in WW II). This allows for a relatively consistent model of combined-arms combat to be played sequentially in a reasonable amount of real time.

Bottom line is SP is a wargame not a simulation. Don and Andy have stated that numerous times in the forums. Cheers and have fun!

Last edited by jivemi; July 4th, 2018 at 07:16 AM..
  #5  
Old July 4th, 2018, 08:38 AM
Mobhack's Avatar

Mobhack Mobhack is offline
National Security Advisor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dundee
Posts: 5,202
Thanks: 44
Thanked 1,197 Times in 835 Posts
Mobhack is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Map scale

We do not give a specific time for a game turn - I don't think SSI ever did either.

We just state "several minutes". Part of that time will be "dead time" that in reality had nothing going on, which happens in real life but not in the minds of folks who think warfare is simply a mechanical function of saying that infantry march X paces per minute at the quick step, so in 2 minutes they cover Y distance. In real warfare the effects of friction are felt, everyone is much more careful than in training in peacetime, and things take longer.

Hit chances are based on battlefield achievable, not the firing range.
  #6  
Old July 4th, 2018, 08:50 AM
Imp's Avatar

Imp Imp is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Uk
Posts: 2,878
Thanks: 65
Thanked 356 Times in 291 Posts
Imp is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Map scale

You want to increase the ROF game may already be to lethal

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-28580666.html

In fact despite the modern doctrine of heavy suppressive fire I think that figure is quite good. Fairly sure in WWll the figure was over a million bullets per casualty, that did include all machine guns both tank & plane and probably did not allow for “lost bullets” Think it was bullets bought manufactured versus people killed.
__________________
John
  #7  
Old July 11th, 2018, 06:34 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 87
Thanks: 5
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Kiwikkiwik is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Map scale

Hello
Yes Imp you are correct the game plays EXACTLY the same, except the hex size change means that all weapons can reach out 5 times further a SMG will now shoot 15 hexes. Im sure about the vehicle speeds, and accuracy and spotting can easily be adjusted.
A change to 10m hexes means infantry still moves 6 hexes per move but will only cover 60m instead of 300m per turn. And will attract the same amount of fire for those 6 hexes travelled.
Scorpio_rocks. OK true ROF falls off for a tank over time but nowhere near as low as what it is in the game. What about a 75mm AT gun? here's another example.
The stock standard German 75mm AT gun in 1944 gets just 3 shots. and I am working on a turn being 3 minutes.
The German 75mm AT gun is stationary has a full crew and a stockpile of shells. It is facing down the autobahn, it is good visibility. He spots the Stuart 1 kilometer away.
At 19 hexes a turn it takes the Stuart just one turn to travel one KILOMETER. So working on a 3 minute turn the AT gun at book value ROF of 10 should get 30 shots at the Stuart as it travels along the road. It gets just 3 shots!!! that is 90% downtime, 90% is way too much Downtime.
The stuart can overrun the AT position from 1 kilometer away and only attracts 3 shots!!!! Thats teleporting, Its a mismatch of giant proportions.
This is easy to miss though because the icons are on the 10m hex size scale, a Stuart 19 hexes away dos’nt look a Kilometer away it looks about 190m away. But nevertheless it has travelled a kilometer.
So changing the map scale to 10m hexes means the AT gun gets 15 shots at the Stuart as it travels the 1 kilometer, because it now takes 5 turns to travel that kilometer. ROF and Movement match much better on a 10m Hex map.
ROF is not the same as hit chances. Hit chance is determined by accuracy, rangefinder, fire control etc. ROF tells how many opportunities there are to calculate the hit chance.
I say again, go to Mobhack increase some units weapons ranges by 5 and play a test game its a way better game, swarming is replaced by tactics. And the game LOOKS right and is better to play, the little men who can only dribble there grenades down at their feet, with 10m hexes they can throw them 5 hexes away!
Hi
  #8  
Old July 11th, 2018, 08:25 AM
DRG's Avatar

DRG DRG is offline
National Security Advisor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: GWN
Posts: 9,491
Thanks: 1,679
Thanked 2,512 Times in 1,337 Posts
DRG will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Map scale

This nonsense has gone on long enough.....



1. In case any other players were worried we might take this seriously do not be concerned -------the game scale is NOT going to change

2. "men who can only dribble there grenades down at their feet, with 10m hexes they can throw them 5 hexes away".......that is only one flaw in your logic...up until recently to pass qualification the US army required a recruit to throw 25 meters. The stats for the M67 fragmentation grenade says "can be thrown 40 meters by the average soldier" .......NOT 50 meters.

The scale of the infantry Icon and the vehicle icons and the aircraft icon do not and never have matched....that is the way SP was built and accepted since day one and we are not going to change it. The game works as is for 99.9% of the players.....and us.... and will stay that way
__________________
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to DRG For This Useful Post:
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2018, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.