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  #1  
Old April 9th, 2018, 08:10 PM

Weasel Weasel is offline
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Default Question on infantry SAMs

Hey all; So play testing one of the WW2 to MBT conversions I did and have noticed that the blowpipe...blows? Just kidding; in 3 play tests my opponent and I have noted that the BP very rarely fires, and if it does it is normally when the jet is near the edge of the map while flying away. So I set up a test in 1979, UK vs Russia, wide open flat map 100x50. I purchased 4 blowpipes, 2 regular and 2 with vision 15, plus 4x non-radar bofor and then set out 8 tanks as targets.

The jets were set to come in from all different directions and I did this over many turns, plotting new each turn, yet no matter how far or close they were I noted that the SAMs rarely fired, maybe 1 in 8 jets, while the tanks fired at ranges as far away as 800m, and the regular bofors from as far away as 1450m. The SAMs were set up 14 hexes behind the tanks, their minimum range being 10. I then moved the SAMs to the side and below the tanks so they had side shots, again about 15 hexes away and still they just watched the air show while the AAA did most of the work.

So now to my question: is there a trigger event for SAMs? The jets had EW2, will this stop the SAMs from firing? I then purchased some Redeyes and they fired maybe 1 in 6, better, but still.

I have the scenario file is anyone wants to try it, but to me it seems the minimum range 10 isn't working (200:10)as they don't launch until very far away.

I then switched out the blowpipes for M42 dusters and against 4 jets they fired 5 times and that was with the AI moving them during the turn in the conversion scenario (not the SAM test).

Anyway, any information on how these work is appreciated. I checked the manual, did not see anything on this except for the part saying that them not engaging incoming aircraft had been fixed, was this fixed for the newest patch?
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  #2  
Old April 9th, 2018, 08:49 PM
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Suhiir Suhiir is offline
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Default Re: Question on infantry SAMs

Might want to look at the Experience and Morale ratings as they're the primary determining factor when it comes to opportunity fire (which is what all AA fire is).
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  #3  
Old April 10th, 2018, 12:46 AM

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Default Re: Question on infantry SAMs

Might do better checking the combat record of Blowpipes in real life. They were not very effective with a minimum range of .5Km (10 hexes in game) and a MCLOS guidance system.
The Falklands War saw 95 missiles fired by the British. A later report determined that only two kills could be attributed to Blowpipe: A British Harrier attacked by the Argentine Army and an Argentine Aermacchi.

The Blowpipe was found to be particularly ineffective when used to engage a crossing target or to chase a target moving rapidly away from the operator.
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Old April 10th, 2018, 02:19 AM
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shahadi shahadi is offline
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Post Re: Question on infantry SAMs

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp10 View Post
Might do better checking the combat record of Blowpipes in real life. They were not very effective with a minimum range of .5Km (10 hexes in game) and a MCLOS guidance system.
The Falklands War saw 95 missiles fired by the British. A later report determined that only two kills could be attributed to Blowpipe: A British Harrier attacked by the Argentine Army and an Argentine Aermacchi.

The Blowpipe was found to be particularly ineffective when used to engage a crossing target or to chase a target moving rapidly away from the operator.
Interesting.

I compared the accuracy of the Blowpipe to the FIN-92 Stinger, the Starstreak, and the Javelin SAM, although only the Blowpipe was available in 1979, I wonder if the accuracy rating of the Blowpipe is resulting in it's poor performance as well as the short range (weapon range is 70).


Accuracy
070 Blowpipe
100 FIN-92 Stinger
120 Starstreak
120 Javelin SAM

So, given jp10's reporting and the accuracy value within the game, the Blowpipe should perform poorly. Maybe, if the target was flying directly at the Blowpipe team, the hit percentage may increase, otherwise, it is a poor weapon system in the game as it was in real life.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Blowpipe_OOB.JPG (82.4 KB, 192 views)
File Type: jpg FIM-92_Stinger.JPG (96.8 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg Javelin-SAM.JPG (93.8 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Starstreak-SAM.JPG (65.4 KB, 36 views)
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  #5  
Old April 10th, 2018, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: Question on infantry SAMs

Its only advantage over early Heat-seekers was its ability to engage incoming targets before weapon release as early heat seeker MANPADS were tail chasers so really only could "revenge" attack a departing plane. Also it was not affected by chaff and flares (EW) as it was manually directed.

However the game does not cover that technical detail, so all heat seekers are all-aspect capable in the game. In addition, EW is just a generic value in the game that applies to all AA systems, not being split into radar or HEAT or laser spoofing.

Perhaps Blowpipe might be allowed a few points of EW more to reflect the fact, but its low accuracy would remain. It was not a particularly effective system, but it was better than nothing in the early 70s.
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Old April 10th, 2018, 03:48 PM

Weasel Weasel is offline
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Default Re: Question on infantry SAMs

Thanks for all the replies but my question is not in regards to accuracy my question is in regards to them never firing. All told I would say 80 air sorties both in the scenario and the test have been flown, with perhaps 6 to 8 launches to meet them. The XP/MOR of the units are both in the 80 figures.

So whether or not it hits it would be nice to see it at least fire to buck up the boys.

***I just took another look at the blowpipe, I wonder if it is an EW thing, the BP has an EW of 1, while the jets had 2. Just guessing***
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Old April 10th, 2018, 04:37 PM

Weasel Weasel is offline
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Default Re: Question on infantry SAMs

Redid the test and used spotter planes and light helos instead, the BP fired at maximum range using all their shots in the turn, so it must be the EW stopping them from shooting.
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Old April 10th, 2018, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Question on infantry SAMs

SAM will only fire if they think there is a chance of a hit - and the EW balance is part of the calculation for hit chance.

My Blowpipes regularly fire in 1970s campaigns against Soviet planes and helos, but then they do not get EW till later on IIRC.
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Old April 10th, 2018, 06:03 PM

Weasel Weasel is offline
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Default Re: Question on infantry SAMs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack View Post
SAM will only fire if they think there is a chance of a hit - and the EW balance is part of the calculation for hit chance.

My Blowpipes regularly fire in 1970s campaigns against Soviet planes and helos, but then they do not get EW till later on IIRC.
You are correct, did another test, EW1 vs EW1 and the BP fired often. I also noted that against very fast jets they have a much reduced chance of firing too, makes sense. I will see if I can find some EW1 aircraft for the scenario.

**So I checked the scenario, the jets are EW0 that I am using, so it must be the terrain, but not sure as the BP has a pretty long LOS**
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Old April 10th, 2018, 09:48 PM
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shahadi shahadi is offline
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Post Re: Question on infantry SAMs

[quote=Weasel;841723]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobhack View Post
SAM will only fire if they think there is a chance of a hit - and the EW balance is part of the calculation for hit chance.

I will see if I can find some EW1 aircraft for the scenario.
Weasel, in the Editor, as you may know, the EW of the Blowpipe is adjustable. So you could set it equal or greater to the EW of the opposing aircraft in your scenario. Or, reduce the EW of the opposing aircraft.


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