OT: Noob vs Newbie, etc

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

A basic tenant of anything diplomatic or customer service related is that only those that the term is applied to can say whether or not its offensive. It never really works for people outside of that group to say "you should not be offended by this term". Particularly when the argument is "its just a derivative of" Pick any term for any group thru history if you need examples. Better yet if its one that applies to you. A person can choose to laugh at PC (politically correct) but there is a reason that such thinking exists and gets used. Either choose to honor the request, or dont. But finding it hilarious isnt going to achieve the purpose desired here.

Of course there is always a situation where a person or group proudly takes on a term. But even they usually admit that they have taken a term usually used or taken harshly and owned it. I can think of at least 3 that apply to me in that category.

Considering this is a label that everyone has at one point and later doesn't have, its really a community standard thing more than something that gets permanently applied to some subset of the community. Eventually all n00bs cease being n00bs (at least in theory) or leave the community.

Its like being a freshman. Everyone was one once, so the current freshmen can't really justifiably complain about the term.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think that "you are a newbie" is different than "you are a n00b".
I cant think of a similar example using the word "freshman".

In fact the most PC action by the OP would probably be "new player"

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

I think that "you are a newbie" is different than "you are a n00b".

And I happen to think you're wrong, so we're back to a language debate.

I cant think of a similar example using the word "freshman".

The parallel for what you think the distinction is would be 'frosh'. However, that is actually a different word rather than a different spelling, and I can't think of a different spelling of the word 'freshman' in english.

(not that I have any problems with 'frosh', having been one once upon a time. The people who used the term derogatively would have used any other term with the same vocal tones to imply denegration).

[KissBlade]

Blackguard is actually right. Newb and noob have different connotations in most online gaming worlds. However, I don't think that was the intention of rdonj. In fact, oone can clearly tell, he had no difference in mind from nature of post so I think it's better to just move on rather than eat up three pages on that discussion alone.

[lch]

w3rd

[Ink]

only newbies can use the word n00b, everyone else has to use the word newbie.

[13lackGu4rd]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

First of all, you might want to try actually giving a true example. The 'N word' might be derived from latin 'niger', but its not the same word. Even if it were, you're now talking about a word in english and a word in a different language. n00b is not from a different language, its an alternate spelling of a word in the same language. It'd be like saying 'gray' is offensive but 'grey' is not.

first of all the N word is the same word as the 1 in Latin. second of all the English language has its roots within Latin, so saying it's a different language isn't entirely correct. third of all the "invention" of the N word came from the Latin language, like many other English words, so I really don't understand why you claim it's a "bad example".

Second, how is your understanding of the word any better than mine? I've seen its use in a multitude of communities over 19 years, and its varied from being an insult to just a general descriptor of skill/familiarity (as has 'newbie' and other spellings, I can't actually think of a community I've been part of that has thought 'newbie' was anything other than an alternate spelling).

how is it better you ask? well, lets see... there is a second meaning, that's a fact. you haven't come across it, and you decide that this meaning doesn't exist. it reminds me of the cliche that you don't believe anything you don't see with your own eyes, and I hope I don't need to tell you how foolish and unrealistic that cliche is... so why is my definition better? because I'm not ignoring the context in which the term is used, unlike what you seem to be doing... but hey, I don't blame you, too many people seem to be unaware of this differentiation thus think it doesn't exist, while the people those terms are used on do feel insulted by the wrong usage of the term, just like blacks are offended by the N word despite it simply meaning the color black...

Originally Posted by KissBlade

Blackguard is actually right. Newb and noob have different connotations in most online gaming worlds. However, I don't think that was the intention of rdonj. In fact, oone can clearly tell, he had no difference in mind from nature of post so I think it's better to just move on rather than eat up three pages on that discussion alone.

I never said, and I'm sorry if it came out like that, that rdonj meant to use the term noob in its offensive manner. I think that just like Squirrelloid, he was unaware of it, which is why I wanted to correct him in this thread, so he can refrain from using offensive term without meaning to use it that way.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

first of all the N word is the same word as the 1 in Latin. second of all the English language has its roots within Latin, so saying it's a different language isn't entirely correct. third of all the "invention" of the N word came from the Latin language, like many other English words, so I really don't understand why you claim it's a "bad example".

1) Its not the same word. The spelling is different to start with, and the meanings are different. It does not simply mean 'black' in english, as in the color. The english slang word is certainly derived from the latin word, but one word arising from another in etymology is different from them being the same thing.
2) Latin is a different language than english. It has different rules on grammar. It has a different vocabulary. This isn't even disputable.
3) Just because a number of words came to English from Latin does not make them the same language. Otherwise English would also be the same language as German, Swedish, Spanish, French, various Native American tongues, and so on. Which would make all those languages the same language (law of identity). As this is clearly false, so is your claim.
4) My point has been and still is that 'Newbie' and 'N00b' are alternate spellings of the same exact word. Not derived from the same word - they are the same word. 'Newbie' also gets spelled as 'Newbee' - it doesn't have a well-defined spelling, because its a slang term. When spoken they are pronounced identically, the spellings are merely different renderings of the same phonemes by people rendering a slang term in text. Different spellings do not make them different words. Its like the alternate renderings Beijing and Peking for the Chinese city - they're the same word, just different spellings based on different romanizations (alphabet-sound associations) of the chinese characters.

how is it better you ask? well, lets see... there is a second meaning, that's a fact. you haven't come across it, and you decide that this meaning doesn't exist. it reminds me of the cliche that you don't believe anything you don't see with your own eyes, and I hope I don't need to tell you how foolish and unrealistic that cliche is... so why is my definition better? because I'm not ignoring the context in which the term is used, unlike what you seem to be doing... but hey, I don't blame you, too many people seem to be unaware of this differentiation thus think it doesn't exist, while the people those terms are used on do feel insulted by the wrong usage of the term, just like blacks are offended by the N word despite it simply meaning the color black...

[/quote]

The N word has never meant the color black in english. This is why your example was and continues to be bad.

You are ignoring the historical context in which the spelling developed on the internet, possibly because you were not online anywhere near the time (most people weren't). You are ignoring the context in which both spellings are used derogatorily. (I'd post some data, but my google search terms would be censored by the forums... Needless to say 'newbie' seems to get as much venomous treatment as 'n00b'). And you are ignoring the context of this community in which neither spelling is thrown around in a derogatory manner generally, nor was it used so in the OP.

Some communities may have arbitrarily assigned different meanings to one spelling or another. This is not those communities. There exist other communities where both or neither are considered derogatory. The point still stands they are the same word, and that neither has particularly derogatory connotations in this community.

[slMagnvox]

Gandalf already said it best,

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

A basic tenant of anything diplomatic or customer service related is that only those that the term is applied to can say whether or not its offensive. It never really works for people outside of that group to say "you should not be offended by this term".

Also Squirrel, they are clearly two separate words. Ask anyone to speak the two words aloud and I would happily wager the vast majority will make noob a monosyllable. Even prime time (American) television has uttered the word noob, as a single syllable, and in a context more derogatory than complimentary. Whether or not they used to be synonyms or which spawned the other is only anachronism. Their modern usage and meaning have evolved well beyond their 1990s origins.

[Ink]

KILL ALL THE PWNER PEOPLE

*then we be free*

KILL ALL THE PWNER PEOPLE

*then we be free*

BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY

*word*