Defending Rushes, a primer on avoiding the awake SC pretender

[Squirrelloid]

A number of people seem to look at a nation which has weak troops and immediately thinks 'awake SC'. They might justify it as necessary for expansion (its not in 99% of cases). They might justify it as necessary to fend off a rush (the fallacy we'll deal with here). Many times these nations are also the ones that benefit a lot from strong scales, a rainbow, or some other pretender type which is built for the long game rather than the short game. Taking an awake SC is condemning yourself to mediocrity in the long haul in most cases, and since nations which people will argue need the help aren't going to win in the short haul then you really do need to start planning for the long haul before the game begins.

A central premise here is that the goal of playing a strategy game is to (1) have fun and (2) win. Mediocrity is not fun. Extended survival with no hope of victory leads to boredom, stales, and frustration, and generally makes you less pleasant to play against. So we're going to build pretenders who will let us win the game and then figure out how we live long enough to do so, not build a pretender which will let us live longer and get bored 60 turns in. So, stat out that scale monster, sleeping RB, or whatever else your nation really needs long term. Now lets figure out how to survive.

Which brings us to defending rushes.

When defending rushes you shouldn't plan on a pretender being involved at all. Your pretender can only be so many places, and a rush will often involve multiple smaller armies of sacreds that coalesce towards your capital. Your pretender is going to make little difference against a good rush. Indeed, awake pretenders are expensive - unless you're getting a massive benefit by taking the pretender awake, put him to sleep, imprison him. But make this decision based on long-term strategic goals.

If you absolutely must take an awake SC, take one who will remain useful all game. Most pretender SCs are retired to the lab by mid year 2, early year 3 at the latest. Its simply too easy to kill a single valuable unit like a pretender by mid-game to risk him on the front lines. I've killed a lot of kitted SC pretenders with soul slay, mind hunt, vengeance of the dead, and so on. Who cares if he has MR30 - throw enough soul slays at him and he only has to blow one MR roll. Don't put your pretender in a situation where he'll take that kind of abuse, and don't take pretenders whose value is in risking that long term.

The first defense against a rush is aggressive diplomacy. Talk to your neighbors as soon as you meet them. Make pacts, get him to attack someone else, convince him you're an unappealing target now or someone else will be an even less appealing target than you later but is equally easy now. Leak key information like research you've done which lets you own their killer sacreds (but don't lie too much, they may call your bluff. Its best not to have been bluffing if they do try). If you aren't conducting diplomacy early and often, you're setting yourself up to lose. But sometimes diplomacy fails...

Your second defense against a rush is planning ahead. After everyone has chosen their nation, look over the list of nations carefully. Some of them will be your neighbors. Flag the 2-3 nations you think could be the most difficult for you to deal with early on. Figure out what research you need to beat them. Figure out how long it will take you to get that research done. Do that research first, even before you know they're your neighbors or not. Oftentimes, what research you want is pretty similar for countering a lot of nations (earth magic loves Alt 2, for example). Having the research done before you need it means you only have to move the mages into position with your armies, not frantically scramble for counters. If you get rushed, its too late to start critical research.

Your third defense against a rush is strategic. Make your first expansion force or two move in straight lines away from your capital, leaving naught but a single path back. While it leads him right to your capital, it also means you can predict exactly what route he's going to take. This lets you fight those decisive battles in predictable locations away from your capital if you so choose. Knowing how your opponent is going to move is a major advantage.

Worst case scenario, make sure your attacker goes down with you. Host a Waterloo. Get the other neighbors up in arms against the aggressor, and since you're going to take a lot of stuffing out of your attacker, he should be pretty easy prey for your 'concerned' neighbors. The next game you're in with that opponent, he may not be so keen to rush you. Nor might other players who watched what happened. Rushers want to choose easy pickings, not hard nuts to crack. Be a hard nut and people will stop rushing you.

[fantasma]

Set up a secondary castle (or two) early.

[WingedDog]

I’m not 100% sure, but I think if rusher did make some planning as well and didn’t select you as a target counting “eenie meenie miney mo” diplomacy would’t help you much.

Your third defense against a rush is strategic. Make your first expansion force or two move in straight lines away from your capital, leaving naught but a single path back. While it leads him right to your capital, it also means you can predict exactly what route he's going to take. This lets you fight those decisive battles in predictable locations away from your capital if you so choose. Knowing how your opponent is going to move is a major advantage.

Wouldn’t attacker then just fight your main forces with his army and cut out your only retreat route with flying pretender or stealth forces for example? Wouldn’t he think you are too bold to start expansion close to his capital while you have lots of indy provinces around yours?

The only thing I’m agree with is planning your early game would help you to survive. I’ve seen people planning their game like: “Oh, well, here’s my pretender. Good astral magic for forging rings of sorcery and spamming wishes, lots of death magic to summon tartarians… And since he’s too expensive and useless without research I’ll make him imprisoned, so when he’s awake he’ll be able to cast some great spells. All I need is to do now is start searching for magic sites with my mages for the first year, so he had enough gems when he breaks free. Voila!” And when jaguar warriors come knocking on the their door they say: “Oh, feck!” and are gone in 5 turns, because their army isn’t strong enough for jags, they have no research and they have no pretender to protect them.

Another extremism – players researching in the labs to the death. If you can’t repel enemy by rough force – get your mages out of the lab for the god sake! You can’t take research in the grave with you, even low level spells could break the combat.

People often underestimate the value of researcher pretenders while they are very good for nations with weak troops, but strong mages. Would your neighbour dare to strike at you if you have mages unbound to the lab capable of spaming spells like: numbness, lesser elementals, earth meld, farstrike, skellspam and such on turn 4, and even more dangerous spells later on?

[Squirrelloid]

Winged Dog:
Most rushers I've seen don't have an awake pretender. They're rushing with blessed sacreds, and their pretender is some imprisoned monstrosity which fuels the bless. So getting cut off by a flying pretender isn't as much of an issue.

In my mind, a real rush starts year 1. Year 2 is when indies start disappearing, so its not really a rush anymore. I find it extremely unlikely your opponent has enough scouts in position to know where to pop a flying pretender to cut you off that early.

Also, ideally you move your army to intercept the rusher in a province, so he doesn't see the battle coming. Hard to cut off an army you didn't know you'd be fighting.

Stealth forces are also slower to move into position than otherwise. A rush needs to be fast. If he's dicking around with a stealth army he has to spend turns moving it ahead of his rampaging main army, which means his rampaging main army isn't really rampaging anymore.

(The real key here is that there exists a bottleneck where you can predict the enemy's attack on some turn. So its plausible to have more than one retreat province. A line of provinces simply gives you the luxury of having multiple choices for how soon to engage.)

Also, I somewhat agree on getting researching mages out of the lab. OTOH, sometimes you need a little extra time to research up something special, and if you figure you're dead anyway, turtling to finish that critical research so you can deal the attacker a defeat or at least make him accept a pyrrhic victory makes some sense.

[horza]

Squirrelloid, as a relative noob I find these guides most useful with a few examples that I can iterate from. Could you (or indeed any vet) provide some personal experiences of a rush you successfully defended against?

[Squirrelloid]

I think examining the thought process is more valuable than actual game evidence, assuming you know what will work. But demonstrating something that works is also valuable. So two examples, the first takes us through the process, the second is a bit hazier, but it involves a really early rush I actually defended with markata and mage backup.

Example 1:
Mooseknight. I'm playing Marveni in a game that includes Mictlan, Niefl, Fomoria, and Sauromatia. I know I'm going to have two neighbors based on the map layout, and that first contact will probably happens somewhere in the turn 4-6 range. You may have noticed from my mentioning them that those are the nations I'm most worried about being next to.

Pretender:
In accordance with the OP, I've taken a pretender for my long game. A sleeping FoB A2D4B4 with dom 8 and great scales. This gets me access to most of the magic I didn't have, some blood slave income, good dominion for blood sacrifice, and the cash to crank out those druids that I'm going to live or die by. (I also thought he could cloud trapeze - incorrectly - so S2 might have been better in retrospect)

So, what do we know about those nations? Likely threat analysis:
Niefl - sacred giants/niefl jarls, skinshifters, likely E9N4+ bless if a bless. (Skinshifters aren't sacred)
Fomoria - sacred giants, likely E9N4+ bless
Mictlan - Jags. Likely 3x9 bless or close to it, probably including F9W9
Sauromatia - bugged poisoned arrow archers.

Ok, the best counter to E9 is to make the armor go away, because then the defense bonus goes away. (And they typically have fairly decent armor to begin with.) Also a way to increase damage output is a good call.

Recommended spell options:
Anti-armor: Rusting Mist (Evo 2), Armor of Achilles (Alt 2), Destruction (Alt 4)
Damage Output Enhancement: Strength of Giants (Ench 3), Earth Might (Alt 2), Earth Meld (for more hits, Alt 2)

Mictlan is a bit more of a tough pickle. Those jags have multiple attacks and will act twice/trn every other turn. The best solution is to kill them fast and take ample troops.
Immobilization: Earth Meld (Alt 2)
Damage: Blade Wind (Evo 4), Earth Might (Alt 2)

Sauromatia's archers can be archer decoyed, but the poison will get past shields, so i either need a poison counter or just accept i need enough archer decoys for them to die in droves. They're pretty weak to return fire, and I can buy slingers at almost 2:1. Also, Bladewind.
Early: Sacrifice troops to arrows
less early: N1 mages with a big shield (black steel, perhaps) casting Poison Resistance (Alt 1)

Ok, Alteration has most of my key early spells, so we'll grab Alt 2 first, maybe push to Alt 4 if I see a threat (I should know by then), or Evo 4 if that seems more useful.

Actual gameplay:
Niefl is one of my neighbors, I immediately talk with him about the situation. He's got TC on his other side. I convince him TC is far more threatening to let live and he goes to war with TC instead. (Diplomacy works!)

Later, Kailasa (my other neighbor) sends an envoy asking for help against incursions by Mictlan. Evo 4 was on my to do list, so I proceed to clean Mictlan's clock with Bladewinding Druids.

Game is ongoing. I am very much alive, and Mictlan's capital has been mine for half the game. Niefl and I have still not fought a war.

-----
Random Team Blitz, My BL vs. someone's Jotunheim. (There were two other players in the game - one allied with each of us - but we got stuck in our own pocket war). Our capitals were 3 provinces away from each other.

I can't remember my pretender, but I do remember the first Rishi I pulled was E2. You'll recall all that juicy Alt 2 earth magic? Yep, rush ordered that. His blessed woodsmen bounced off my *markata*. It was a painful and drawn out back-and-forth battle at the border, but as I recall I was slowly getting the upper hand. (Outresearching him badly while we more-or-less stalemated militarily). Earth meld made the woodsmen easy pickings, and earth might let my markata do some serious damage.

[chrispedersen]

Not a bad example of a thought process Squirrell but let me make some observations of my own.

If I take a nation with abysmal troops, (EA agartha, LA bogarus)
These are instances where I *do not* beeline. (ie, expand in straight lines).

This might also be true if I take a nation that has high resource requirements (ulm).


I will (generally expand in the direction of my weakest neighbor.
Scouts and intelligence become very important of course.

As a weak military nation- I don't want to try to defend against a stronger opponent. Fighting at all is a losing battle - and fighting on territories you ahve conquered even worse.

But you definitely need a plan to deal with your opponents. And you use the time to define it and achieve it.

[WingedDog]

Squirrelloid
I'm sorry, but your example 1, doesn't sound like rush protection strategy, but rather story of rush that never happened. And still your actions seem more like a gamble then a strategy to me. What *if* diplomacy wouldn't work, as I see only 3 explanation of Neifel's actions:
1) Many of his neighbors had dormant pretenders and he had a choice whom to atack;
2) He never opened scoregraphs to notice you have no awake pretender;
3) He never wanted to attack anyone that early.

But *if* he wouldn't byte your bait... with strategy you have suggested you are totally defenseless untill turn 7-8 at least, right? And if he really attacked you on turn 4-5 we probabely have:

Worst case scenario, make sure your attacker goes down with you. Host a Waterloo. Get the other neighbors up in arms against the aggressor, and since you're going to take a lot of stuffing out of your attacker, he should be pretty easy prey for your 'concerned' neighbors. The next game you're in with that opponent, he may not be so keen to rush you. Nor might other players who watched what happened. Rushers want to choose easy pickings, not hard nuts to crack. Be a hard nut and people will stop rushing you.

While I personally would prefer to defeat the attacker and to stay alive to enjoy my victory.

[TheDemon]

There is another side to the argument as well: most awake SC pretenders aren't strong enough to handle a very early (turn 5/6) rush. A F9 W9 mictlan will tear apart a PoD or a Wyrm and will give a Cyclops trouble. A bless niefel rush will also kill most SCs, the high str and decent atk does them in even if you give them a cold immune ring. If you take a lesser SC like a Dragon they hardly scratch elite troops. The immortal SCs (Risen Oracle, Phoenix, Vamp Queen, Lich) can attrit the enemy early, but they are much weaker in combat than the non-immortals. And dare I mention a Sphinx with high dom patrolling in the cap.

Anyway my point is a SC won't stop a real rush, it'll be a speedbump on the turn it dies and no more. I think squirrel is right in that a rush is beat by hitting clear defensive research goals early. Awake SC as a rusher's tool on the other hand is very useful since they are great at raiding.

[WingedDog]

Originally Posted by TheDemon

I think squirrel is right in that a rush is beat by hitting clear defensive research goals early. Awake SC as a rusher's tool on the other hand is very useful since they are great at raiding.

So isn't it better have an awake pretender who can help you to achieve defensive research goal as soon as possible rather then SC or sleeping fountain of blood?