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  #31  
Old October 19th, 2005, 07:30 AM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

You should have seen my face that time a weatherman mentioned a low-athmospheric pressure approaching from west, over the glacier of Jotunheim... I live in Finland, and the fact that the myths inspiring both Vanheim and Jotunheim have been born very close has always intrigued me. I've gathered tips and bits of information, and enjoyed it a lot. I think Jotunheim has much deeper roots in mythology than, say, Ulm in history.

I agree in that C'tis could be more clearly Egypt-inspired, I still wouldn't change them into humans. The fact that they thrive in warm, not hot, conditions but are severely handicapped in cold is interesting. The Life-Death cycle isn't really visible in Dominions simply because there isn't much healing. Maybe Dominions III will bring us another reason for the C'tissians standing for the nation of unchanging perfection. Have you ever noticed C'tis AI casting Burden of Time seemingly more often than other AIs?
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  #32  
Old October 19th, 2005, 10:37 AM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

Quote:
Endoperez said:Well, imagine an independent army twice that big, with inquisitors and witch hunters in the lead, one of them seemingly prophet, Knights of the Chalice holding the read, all this under the name of Inquisition, attacking unexpectedly? Can you see it? What about the Four Riders?
Oh man, I loved the Inquistion and the Four Riders in CoE.
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  #33  
Old October 19th, 2005, 12:11 PM

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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

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Nerfix said:
Quote:
Endoperez said:Well, imagine an independent army twice that big, with inquisitors and witch hunters in the lead, one of them seemingly prophet, Knights of the Chalice holding the read, all this under the name of Inquisition, attacking unexpectedly? Can you see it? What about the Four Riders?
Oh man, I loved the Inquistion and the Four Riders in CoE.
NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition !
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  #34  
Old October 19th, 2005, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

Or the Marignonian inquisition
Well, OK, maybe everybody expects them nowadays...
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  #35  
Old October 19th, 2005, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

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Reverend Zombie said:

The Norse had Elves, too (and I recall reading that the Norse idea of Elf inspired Tolkien.)


I was under the impression that Tolkien's elves came from a Finnish background and his love of The Kalevala. You can certainly see it's influence on The Silmarillion, which in turn set the foundation for his classic trilogy. Though I'm sure he drew from many places and wouldn't be a bit suprised if Norse myths entered into it, too. If you get a chance to read his letters (as well as The Kalevala and Silmarillion), they are truly facinating. Admitedly "dry" reads, but very rich stories.

As for the debate regarding the inclusion of "Tolkien-esque" races, I say why not? If they are presented as one of the nation options and not the central theme of the game, I would think they simply become one more choice available and present the chance to appeal to an even wider audience.

I agree that it would be a travesty to turn Dom3 into a purely Tolkien setting, but why not have a single army that appeals to those that enjoy such characters and could then become more familiar with some of the other mythos involved.
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  #36  
Old October 19th, 2005, 05:48 PM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

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daesthai said:
Quote:
Reverend Zombie said:

The Norse had Elves, too (and I recall reading that the Norse idea of Elf inspired Tolkien.)


I was under the impression that Tolkien's elves came from a Finnish background and his love of The Kalevala.
From what I know, the Kalevala (& Tolkien's learning Finnish in order to read it) was certainly the inspiration for the language of the elves, and the stories in it served as inspiration for Tolkien's stories (just as Beowulf and various other sources did).

But I do not know if there are actually elves in the Kalevala. Their absence from it would preclude it as source of inspiration for the idea of elves as such.
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  #37  
Old October 19th, 2005, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

I don't think Tolkien took Elves from Finnish mythology. I'm not very knowledgeable about the subject myself (), but I think Finnish myths mainly tell of shapeshifting trolls that and tiny gnomes/elves as local spirits that will reward good deeds (and food left for them) with good luck.

However, there is one story in Silmarillion that is clearly inspired by Kalevala. The story of Turin has similarities with the story of Kullervo, the hapless. Song of Hiawatha, by American poet Longfellow, is written in English but using the style and rhythmh of Kalevala. It might represent the style better than the translated Kalevala.

EDIT: I'd rather have Middle-Earth total conversion instead of few out-of-place nations. And I think a tutorial would help much more than familiar-seeming nations.
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  #38  
Old October 19th, 2005, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

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Endoperez said:
EDIT: I'd rather have Middle-Earth total conversion instead of few out-of-place nations. And I think a tutorial would help much more than familiar-seeming nations.
Yeah, let somebody mod it if they really want it!
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  #39  
Old October 19th, 2005, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

Quote:
Reverend Zombie said:
Quote:
Endoperez said:
EDIT: I'd rather have Middle-Earth total conversion instead of few out-of-place nations. And I think a tutorial would help much more than familiar-seeming nations.
Yeah, let somebody mod it if they really want it!
Points taken. Especially the tutorial reference. Though I find the out-of-place reference interesting. Though the current nations have their mythological similarities, they come from a variety of mythos. So why not one more? I do agree that we've been recently re-inundated with Tolkien and it seems cliche, but is that possibly because it is a young mythos, historically speaking, and one that is very familiar and currently popular?

I guess the question comes down to - Do you feel Tolkien's Middle Earth qualifies as a mythos - and one on par with the others represented? Obviously it is a beautiful narrative and has created a complete history for itself and the cultures within it. But is there something lacking? I guess my stance in the debate reveals my personal thought here. But I'm curious what others think.

If I offer the previously stated thought that its current popularity (along with some truly obsesive fans) is at least partially to blame for its supposed trite-ness, and that when Tolkien created it, it was not cliche, but fresh... Given that, does Tolkien's middle earth qualify as a mythos on a level with those already in the game?
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  #40  
Old October 19th, 2005, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A

shoot if we want tolkiens world in here, why not have Zelazneys Amber worked in somehow. How about harry potter's wizard culture?

to much?

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