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  #1  
Old April 16th, 2009, 12:55 AM

Trumanator Trumanator is offline
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Default Tips for Vanheim

The title says it all. I'm looking for any and all thoughts, hints, tips, strategies, etc. regarding playing Vanheim.

I realize that a double bless is the obvious thing at first, but I am mainly concerned with where to go from there. Vanheim has less than stellar research, without the ability to forge skull mentors ala Helheim. Also, what would be the best bless? F9W9 is obviously best for the troops, but its somewhat less than stellar for the commanders. Is an E9W9 bless feasible?

Any assistance would be appreciated.
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  #2  
Old April 16th, 2009, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

You can squeeze N4W9S9 out of a monolith with
O3
S3
C3
D1
Misfortune2
Magic1

I'm not sure how the twist fate interacts with the glamour. If it works properly then, I think, you should basically get "two" twist fates. One for the glamour hit, and one for the twist fate hit. The quickness + dual wielding means they'll hit their targets after closing the distance with glamor and twist fate to protect them from archers. 16 defense isn't a lot, though, and these units are probably going to fatigue pretty quickly.

I wish this nation had the fountain as a pretender choice. It makes astral blesses a lot cheaper.

Jazzepi
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Old April 16th, 2009, 01:47 AM

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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

CBM or non Cbm?

Also, vanheim gets ready access to dwarven hammers. Air quills are much sneered at. They shouldn't be.
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  #4  
Old April 16th, 2009, 02:01 AM

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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

Its CBM, and I was sneering at quills. How worth it are they? Also, I'm pretty leery of taking both death and misfortune, is d1 mis2 not that bad?
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  #5  
Old April 16th, 2009, 03:14 AM

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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

EA Vanheim?

Take EA Helheim, throw away the Helkarls/Valkyries and Death Magic access, replace the capital-only mages with one having one less magic path (A3B1? vs. A2D3?, E3? vs. E2D2?). What you get in exchange is extra Supplies in dominion (Fey Boar) and a dual-wielding berserking infantry that is also cap-only.
At least you have guaranteed E3/E4 access which is not bad for the buffs.
You could use most of the tactics described in the Helheim guide as you have the same access to air and Earth magic (and more to the latter). Your blood access is marginally better (B2 randoms) and you have guaranteed A3 with A4 (and lucky A5) randoms for Thunderstrike spam - the same air access as Caelum.

Mind you, the +5 berserking gets you to 18 attack skill and 24/25 damage but 7 or so defense without bless, you don't really need fire weapons unless facing ethereal troops, and they'd deal enough damage to pop Mistform. So they'd get hit and would be much less durable.

What about an imprisoned Dom6 Enchantress with say O2S3C3D2L1M0, A1E9S9N4. Your Vanhere's protection would be 16 (20 with legions of Steel) you automatically ignore two hits and you encumbrance is reduced to 3 (5 in Cold-3), and Twist Fate remains longer in melee. Get one scale for Dom-5.
Monolith would give you one better scale with above bless at Dom-6.

The E9 bless would also help your Vanadrotts and Vanjarls with fatigue.

All this CBM.
In CBM quills are lvl 0, you might need them.
You have Dwarven Elder multiheroes too, with some big research bonus and more magic, IIRC.

Last edited by P3D; April 16th, 2009 at 03:29 AM..
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  #6  
Old April 16th, 2009, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumanator View Post
Its CBM, and I was sneering at quills. How worth it are they?
I don't want to threadjack, but I suppose this is on topic. Owl quills are just plain bad in almost all situations. I'm speaking in general here, not just about Vanheim. Consider that the gap they're trying to fill is very early research which means also that you're very gem constrained. This means not only for the quills, but for dwarven hammers. If you've got a hammer, you're unlikely to have 2, and you're likely to have other things you'd like to use it on. This means, generally, the cost of the quill is often 5A (not 3) and you've not had time to build up a stockpile or income of them. For 5A you're probably getting a research boost less than one more cheap research mage (3RP +1 for a magic scale)....but you've used up a mage-turn forging (another if you insist you managed a hammer) and possibly many more if you're out manually site searching to try and get some early A gems for quills. All this to do the work of (generally) one extra castle spitting out research mages.

Compare this to my suggestion in my Helheim guide where 3 castles are doing the research output of 10 while picking up points being in a drain-2 environment - it's a completely different scale. Obviously it's an apples to oranges comparison, but my point is why it works for the strategy I suggest is because of the point of the game you're at (you've got gems to use) the fact you can have sufficient hammers (because you've got gems to use and need less hammers to process gems into research points) and because of the research concentration (you don't need many forgers or research mages for impressive results). Owl quills are too little bang for the buck, and too hard to output at the point of the game they fit because of your constraints.
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  #7  
Old April 16th, 2009, 04:17 PM
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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

I'm putting quills to good use in one of my games. I have a good air gem income, and air gems, to be honest, aren't really useful for gearing up SCs. Generally you want earth, fire, water, and nature gems for that, with some astral thrown in for MR amulets, and starshin skullcaps.

With that in mind, what /do/ you use air gems for?

1. Battle magic (fog warriors, etc)
2. Summoning air queens
3. Forging items like staff of storms

Outside of the above three applications, I don't see a ton of use for air gems. That said, 3 can be extremely expensive. Air boosters are 25 a pop, and a staff of storms will run you the same amount. Though, generally you only need two air boosters, and maybe one or two staves.

With that in mind, I'm having great success using quills to push my research up and above by forging them with hammers. They're upkeep free, and you'll have them until the end of the game, which is really nice.

I really think air quills could use a research boost to 4 instead of 3. That would bring them closer to lightless lanterns, but TBH, air magic is already really good. I don't think it needs to be able to forge great researching items as well.

Jazzepi
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Old April 17th, 2009, 01:33 AM

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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baalz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumanator View Post
Its CBM, and I was sneering at quills. How worth it are they?
I don't want to threadjack, but I suppose this is on topic. Owl quills are just plain bad in almost all situations. I'm speaking in general here, not just about Vanheim. Consider that the gap they're trying to fill is very early research which means also that you're very gem constrained. This means not only for the quills, but for dwarven hammers. If you've got a hammer, you're unlikely to have 2, and you're likely to have other things you'd like to use it on. This means, generally, the cost of the quill is often 5A (not 3) and you've not had time to build up a stockpile or income of them. For 5A you're probably getting a research boost less than one more cheap research mage (3RP +1 for a magic scale)....but you've used up a mage-turn forging (another if you insist you managed a hammer) and possibly many more if you're out manually site searching to try and get some early A gems for quills. All this to do the work of (generally) one extra castle spitting out research mages.

Compare this to my suggestion in my Helheim guide where 3 castles are doing the research output of 10 while picking up points being in a drain-2 environment - it's a completely different scale. Obviously it's an apples to oranges comparison, but my point is why it works for the strategy I suggest is because of the point of the game you're at (you've got gems to use) the fact you can have sufficient hammers (because you've got gems to use and need less hammers to process gems into research points) and because of the research concentration (you don't need many forgers or research mages for impressive results). Owl quills are too little bang for the buck, and too hard to output at the point of the game they fit because of your constraints.

Vanheim starts with an a1 mage that can be profitably turned to filling in and making Owl quills as necessary.

Its gem income is 3e and 3 air. Vanheim is capable of researching Con-2 by turn 5, even without a researching pretender. And on turn 5 he will have precisely the gems needed to build the hammer - and unless he has had luck - no other gems *but* air.

It isn't a question of building a 3rd research castle. At this point in the game you are presumably building a *2nd* research castle. Just like all the other nations.... and like them you will also build a 3rd castle.

The question is getting the maximum return on every investment you make in the game.

Building a dwarf hammer on turn 5 will save you 2 gems (or more) every turn - its equivalent to increasing your gem income by 2 (almost).

Early in the game, you have no better use for your air gems. Getting 180 rp for a 3 gem investment, over a 65 turn game is a pretty good investment.

Buying 1 quill per turn over 5 turns is equivalent to *one* additional research level. Over 10 turns.. its 165 rp, or two additional research levels.

I doubt there is a better return on investment than investing in construction early as vanheim.

15 turns of constant one dwarf per turn yeilds you 420 research points. It gets you to cloud trapeze, and one level of research.

15 turns of constant dwarf plus 10 turns of owl quills gets you 585 research points. Ie., it gets you Con-2 plus ench-4 plus *two* levels of research.

And this ignores that you will likely be making a second hammer before turn 15.

In other words, taking construction and building owl quills *pays for itself* before turn 15.
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  #9  
Old April 17th, 2009, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

I took a closer look at this nation today and came to this conclusion:

Dual bless vanheres are an awful trap. Because of your weak magic diversity, and the availability of other nations with cheaper / better blesses than yours, there's no reason to try to bless out this nation.

If you ignore the idea of going double bless, then there's a couple of possibilities left.

1. Single bless relying on Vanhere's as a good starting point.
2. Rainbow pretender w/ good scales
3. Awake pretender

I really think that it's easy enough to expand with the Hirdman troops. They're /excellent/. When's the last time you've seen heavy infantry with 17 defense, 12 morale, and 12 attack skill? Oh, and they have glamor which is like getting twist fate for free!

Since we're going to go with an awake/sleeping rainbow pretender and you already have access to great earth and air I would probably focus on what you /don't/ have great access to when picking magic paths.

Fire - I really hate fire on pretenders like this unless you're doing one of two things with it. Forging rune smashers / summoning the fire kings. You shouldn't be doing either with Vanheim. So no fire.

Air - No need. You'll easily have air 4, even 5. Throw in air 1 if you've got points left over.

Water - You've really got no way to use this besides diversifying into water off of mage sites. You can summon up Naiads and clam horde which is a good enough reason for me to recommend water 3.

Earth - I'd probably put 1 on a rainbow mage. Give the mage earth boots, then have them forge crystal coins if you need extra astral boosting.

Astral - I always throw this on my rainbow mages. Astral pearls are easy to convert into other types since they're each worth .5 of any other gem. It also helps forging great boosters for when you inevitably find an astral 1 mage site. Being able to forge starshine skullcaps, and crystal coins, makes leveraging them a lot easier. You also want access to rings of wizardy and sorcery, a ladder that you can climb easily with S3.

Death - Death 3 is a must here. It's a great late game investment that gives you access to tartarians late in the game. It's not an easy ladder to climb, but mound fiends + skull staffs + +1 death masks + rings can get you there. Just being able to summon mound fiends at least allows you to get an undead factory going.

Nature - Nature 3 is definitely a great pick for a pretender. It gives you easy access to mother oak through nature +1 stick + moonvine bracelet. You can also spend the gems to summon other nature mages early on that can turn your gems into an army of vine ogres, or simply cast mass protection for your troops.

I would probably pick an awake enchantress with these paths.
F0
A1
W3
E1
S3
D3
N3

Scales
Dom 6
O3
S1
C2
G2
Misfortune 2
Magic 1

You can easily go with a dormant enchantress and pickup 151 points which translates into better scales, but I think the awake research + extra gems is worth more.

Jazzepi
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  #10  
Old April 17th, 2009, 02:16 PM

P3D P3D is offline
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Default Re: Tips for Vanheim

I'd put Fire 1 on the Rainbow, that'd give you access Flaming skull. You can forge the AE Elemental Staff easiest by an E3A1 Dwarf+2 air Boosters+ring or EA3 Vanadrott + Bloodstone + Boots + RoW (or Robe for that matter). Now you have F4 on your F random Dwarves.

I made some experiments with ES-dual bless, but the Vanheres are still more fragile than ideal. I also realized that the Strength of Steel path is not the best for expansion - it requires a Dwarf and a Vanhere to lead. So go with a Rainbow and EN(W?) minor bless for thugs/spellcasters and let her sleep.
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