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Old October 19th, 2018, 03:50 PM

RC4 RC4 is offline
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Default Pakistan ORBAT

This forum is dead, I will unleash some violence!

All Pakistanis and their most “Enemy” can join the debate!

I will try to improve the Pakistan ORBAT

Regarding armour:

Stuart Hybrid Mk.IV (US M3A1) 8/1947-12/1966, initially equipped a Light Armoured Regiment, last used in the 1965 war by a Independent Armoured Squadron in Kashmir, there is a map at the Pak Army Museum showing operation Grand Slam with it. Date of availability is wrong at 12/1954.

Churchill Mk.VI 8/1947-12/1954, initially equipped a Heavy Armoured Regiment. Not mentioned in the game, must be introduced, it was like Unit34 of UK Obat07.

M3 Lee 8/1947-12/1966, turretless Tank Destroyer with 17 Pounder in the hull. Not mentioned in the game, must be introduced, it was like Unit10 of Brazil Obat48 without the small turret with the 37mm gun and Browning CMG.

Sherman Mk.V (US M4A4) 8/1947-12/1966, initially equipped three Medium Armoured Regiments. There were also the Crab and Duplex Drive (Amphibious) engineer versions. Not mentioned in the game, must be introduced, it was like Unit9 of UK Obat07. The right Photo is 8427. Corrections to all Sherman Mk.V (Indian and other Commonwealth users), they had a stabilized gun, factor 1 should be introduced in all, speed was 11 (weak engine), and survivability was 3 level. It should be noted that all had a US M3 75mm gun with 10 accuracy, they had not a British Mk.VIII gun with a factor 9 accuracy as appeared in Unit9 of UK Obat07. It had no smoke dischargers outside the turret but had an opening on the turret roof for a smoke mortar, so it should have at least 1 smoke discharger factor.

M4A1E6 Sherman 1/1955-12/1971. All OK, there was also Dozer version shown as Unit-180, but its data is not right, it was a straight M4A1E6 with a dozer blade, it had the same armour and the gun was not stabilised.

M32B1/B2/A1B3 Sherman ARV 1/1955-12/1971, supporting M4A1E6 fleet

M74 Sherman ARV 1/1955-12/2002, supporting M47 fleet

M4A3E8 Sherman (Unit008) never used, the examples present in Pak museums were captured from India. It should be removed.

M24 Chaffee 1/1955-12/1971. The gun was stabilized, factor 1 should be introduced.

Type63, ZTS-63 & ZTS-63(-) (Units 004/005/006) never used. It should be removed.

PT76 1/1970-12/1971, not mentioned in the game, must be introduced, it was like Unit7 of Indonesia Obat71, reports of captured vehicles from India or bought from Indonesia. Used in East Pakistan during 1971 War.

M36E9 & M36B2E9 Jackson 1958-12/1971, with turret roof armour cover. Both similar Unit211
M36B2 didn’t had Browning BMG, this was present at M36B1 not used by Pakistan.

M47 Patton 1/1955-12/1978, they were all modified to M47M in Iran and delivered before the revolution in 1979, so end date should be 12/1978 and not 12/1980. From 1/1974 the first M47M were introduced, they were not called M47MP. From 7/1987 they received a new 90mm APFSDS-T from Mecar, this is referred in game as M36-85, this was from 7/1987 and not 1990. Its end date should be 12/2002 and not 2005. The photo shows a regular M47, the M47M had a new engine in a higher back profile (see photos).

M48 Patton 1/1961-12/1990, introduction date is 1961 not 1960, they were delivered in 1961-64. From 2/1982 a batch of 100 M48A5 were delivered from the US, not 1985. In 1987-1991 there was a program from General Dynamics to upgrade the remaining M48 to M48A5, but with sanctions the program was not completed and by 12/1990 the non-upgraded tanks were scrapped. The remaining M48A5 were kept in reserve until 12/2002, not 2010. As for ammo, the 90mm M48 had the M41-53 gun from induction and only received the new ammo M41-65 from 1/1974, using it until 12/1990. The 105mm first M48A5 deal came with 10000 rounds of M68-78 type ammo (M735), not M68-Pa85 this didn’t exist. This was used until the Pakistan Army introduced Chinese T59/T69 tanks armed with Chinese T81 (L7 copy) in 1/1993. From then on Pak started using two types of AP ammo. One should be referred as AP and the other as SABOT. They are UK L64A4 as AP and the H6/60 as SABOT, in the game it should be referred as the M68-Pak93, picking the M68-Is90 and entering the AP penetration to 50, the rest remaining the same. The ammo type distribution on the vehicle should be changed to 19 HE+15 AP+5 SABOT+15 HEAT. The AAMG is a T54 12.7mm (DShK) made under licence in Pakistan from 1986, replacing the M2HB.

M88A1 Hercules ARV 1/1984-present, not mentioned in the game, must be introduced, it is like Unit18 of Portugal Obat73. The AAMG is a T54 12.7mm (DShK) made under licence in Pakistan.

T34/85 1/1966-12/1971 They were Russian built (not Type-58), but had Chinese instructions, so were delivered by China. Ammo should be changed to 24 HE/25 AP/6 HEAT, as used by the Type-58 in Chinese service. There was also a lone SPK5 ARV 1/1966-12/1971 supporting the fleet. They were employed in the 1971 war and then replaced.

T59 (in Pakistan they called it T59 not Type-59) 1/1966-12/2002, it stayed in reserve until 12/2002 like M48A5, M47M & T55A. The basic vehicle is correct, the Photo is bad should be 14262, they had smoke grenade dischargers from the beginning (smoke value 2). They didn’t have Type-59-Ib or Type-59-II. Originally 1300 received, some were lost during 1971 war, from 1/1993 some 500 were upgraded to T59M status, from 1/1998 some 300 were upgraded to T59MII status. As for ammo, the 100mm T59 had the T59 gun (Russian D10T) from induction. In 1/1970 with the arrival of the Russian T55A tanks from Russia, came Russian Ammo like the HVAPDS-T UBM6 (later build in Pakistan by POF) and so gun improved to T59-60 (like D10TG-60). After 1/1986 they received the Chinese Type-73 APFSDS-T (SABOT) and upgraded the gun to T59-Ch86 already in the game as Pak weapon77 (100mm D10T-Ch86). The AAMG is a T54 12.7mm (DShK) made under licence in Pakistan.

The T59M (Phase I upgrade) was the same as Type-59-II, but with 28 improvements, including a 105mm T81 gun (L7 copy), UK GEC-Marconi Centaur computerised FCS from the Vickers Mk.3 (25 value, not 10), ATCOP GNS1 Image intensification sights (30 value, not 20), ATCOP TR2/3 LRF (laser rangefinder) (OK 22 value), and two axis stabilizations (2 value, not 1). The 7.62 BMG was deleted, and ammo storage increased to 44 rounds. This version had the same engine, so speed is the same 16 value.

The T59MII (Phase II upgrade) was the same as T59M, but with Thales Catherine TIS (Thermal Imaging Sight) (40 value) instead of Image intensification sights. It has a reinforced armor bit heavier and more advanced than a Chinese Type 59-II, floor armor was also increased (HF 20 value for HEAT like Chinese Type 69-II). This version has a new engine, enabling speed of 18 value.
As for ammo the 105mm T59M & T59MII had from 1/1993 on two types of ammo like the M48A5. One should be referred as AP and the other as SABOT. They are UK L64A4 as AP and the H6/60 as SABOT, in the game it should be referred as the T81-Pak93, picking the T81-Is90 and entering the AP penetration to 50, the rest remaining the same. It carries 44 rounds and ammo type distribution on the vehicle should be changed to 19 HE+9 AP+4 SABOT+12 HEAT.

The Al-Zarrar (Phase III upgrade) from 2/2004-present. Series 2 with Aorak MK.1 ERA from 2/2004 and Series 3 without ERA from 1/2007. It is manually loaded so the crew is 4, not 3. The AAMG is a T54 12.7mm (DShK) made under licence in Pakistan. The coaxial MG is the same T57T from the T59 tank, not T67T. Italian Ares FCS computerised FCS from the Ariete (30 value right), LRF right, Italian Thetis TIS (Thermal Imaging Sight) (40 value right). Gun is a Pakistani made HMC (Heavy Mechanical Complex) 125mm derived from the Ukrainian KBA3. It has a Pakistani made ATCOP LTS-1 laser threat warning system, this lets the crew know if they are being targeted by laser designators and automatically fires smoke grenades to block the laser designation beam. The Al-Zarrar Series 2 used a large amount of Aorak MK.1 ERA appliqué armor, but this was replaced in Series 3 with a modular armor suite, including composite armor on the glacis and turret front and spaced armor on the hull and turret sides. The floor armor has been dramatically increased as well. Lugs for ERA are found on the glacis, hull sides, turret front, turret sides, and the forward part of the turret roof. Application of antitank mine-roller. The real appearance of the Series 2 is image 23696, in bad Al-Khalid section.

T55A 1/1970-12/2002. it is like Unit11 of Russia Obat11, but with the AAMG. As for ammo it used D10TG-60 from 1970 with the Russian supplying the HVAPDS-T UBM-6 (from then on built in Pakistan by POF). After 1/1986 they received the Chinese Type-73 APFSDS-T (SABOT) and upgraded the gun to D10TG-Ch86 already in the game as Pak weapon77 (100mm D10T-Ch86). There is no evidence of the use of the T54A (Unit 30), mistaken with T55A. There was no Unit 181 (dozer blade). There are two special engineer vehicles developed from the T55A in 1/2003. The Dragon EMP and the Troll TAM.

T69IIMP 1/1993-present, was the same as Type-69-II but with improvements, including a 105mm T81 gun (L7 copy) and UK GEC-Marconi Centaur computerised FCS from the Vickers Mk.3 (25 value, not 10), smoke dischargers on the turret side (value 2). It carries 44 rounds and ammo type distribution on the vehicle should be changed to 19 HE+9 AP+4 SABOT+12 HEAT. Photo should be changed. The AAMG is a T54 12.7mm (DShK) made under licence in Pakistan. They didn’t have Type-69 or Type-69-II.
From 1/1998 some T69IIMP+ with Thales Catherine TIS (Thermal Imaging Sight) (40 value) instead of Image intensification sights.
From 1/2008 some T69IIMP-COIN for Frontier Corps, with a reintroduced 100mm T59-Ch86 denoting the AP100-II APFSDS-T (SABOT) and extra protection (cage) around the turret against RPG7. This has armour protection for the AAMG operator.

W653 & W653A ARV 1/1995-present. The AAMG is a T54 12.7mm (DShK) made under licence in Pakistan.

T85IIAP 7/1992-12/2000, values OK. The 7.62 CMG is the same 57T like T59/69 tanks, not 67T. The AAMG is a T54 12.7mm (DShK) made under licence in Pakistan. Application of antitank mine-plough, not dozer blade as unit-182. It had 40 rounds only and ammo type distribution on the vehicle should be changed to 16 HE+12 SABOT+12 HEAT. T85IIAP+ 1/2001-present, same as earlier, more; it has a Chinese ISFCS212 (Image-stabilised Fire control system), same as Chinese Type-85-III (28 value, not 25). It had a second-generation image intensification night vision (35 value, not 30). Thales Catherine TIS (Thermal Imaging Sight) (40 value) instead of Image intensification sights. Application of antitank mine-plough, not dozer blade as unit-182.

T80UD 2/1997-present & T80UD/T84 6/1997-present. There are two types, none is called T80UDP, the original T80UDs delivered to the Pakistanis were in fact standard Russian made T-80UDs. The remaining T80UDs, however, were not standard, were T80UD/T84 Hybrid. The Ukrainians used the hulls and hull components of the T80UD, but the turrets of these vehicles were the same as those installed on the T84. In addition, the ERA lugs were modular and could take both Russian Kontakt-5 & Ukraine Nozh ERA (improved Kontakt-5), these have 15 value on turret like Unit-56 T84(R) of Orbat-79 Ukraine. Image should be changed to 52668. The original T80UD had a value-35 FCS from the Russian T80U, the T80UD/T84 came with a value-45 FCS from the Ukrainian T84. The commander AAMG is housed in an integrated cupola system that allows the KT 12.7mm (NSVT made in Ukraine) to be aimed and fired from inside the turret using its own auxiliary sights and LRF and is stabilized in the vertical plane. The CMG is a KT 7.62mm (PKT made in Ukraine). Ammo type distribution on the vehicle should be changed to 15 HE+12 SABOT+12 HEAT to both types. There are some equipped with the KMT6 mine roller.

Al-Khalid 7/2001-present & Al-Khalid-I 12/2014-present. Image shown is bad, from the Al-Zarrar. The FCS is value-45 for Al-Khalid from the French Leclerc, and value-50 Indigenous FCS for Al-Khalid-I. The smoke dischargers should be changed to value-2. The AAMG is a Chinese W85 12.7mm, not M85, different performance. Al-Khalid have 39 rounds only and ammo type distribution on the vehicle should be changed to 15 HE+12 SABOT+12 HEAT. The Al-Khalid-I have 49 rounds (19 HE+15 SABOT+15 HEAT). The ERA armour type of Al-Khalid is right, its Pakistani Aorak MK.1 ERA (value-4), on the Al-Khalid-I there is new armour in front and sides Pakistani Aorak MK.2 ERA (value-15) derived from the Ukraine Nozh. In the Al-Khalid-I, Stabilizer should be value-5 and survivability value-6. There were prototypes with Varta APS, but it was not fitted to series armor. There are some equipped Argo mine ploughs from 6/2007.

125mm Guns; The T85IIAP came with the T83, a D81 clone made by the Chinese. The first batch of T80UD came with Russian made 2A46M (D81), but the follow T80UD/T84 came with the KBA3, a D81 clone made by Ukraine. The Al-Khalid & Al-Zarrar came with the HMC (Heavy Mechanical Complex), a D81 clone made by Pakistan.

125mm Ammo; The T85IIAP came with the 125mm D81-PRC92 (Chinese T-125-I APFSDS-T). In 2/1997 the Pakistan Army received the T80UD, and both the T85IIAP and the T80UD started using the D81-PRC95 (Chinese T-125-II APFSDS-T also built under licence in Pakistan as the Naiza P1 APFSDS-T). There are no 125mm D81-Pak97 or Pak00. From 7/2001, Al-Khalid was introduced and used D81-PRC95. In 2002 the Chinese developed the T-125-IIM, this was received by Pakistan Army in 1/2003 and made under licence in Pakistan as the Naiza P2 APFSDS-T. The performance is the same as Chinese PRC02 and was used as the D81-PRC02 in T85IIAP, T80UD, Al-Khalid & Al-Zarrar. There was not D81T-86 round in the T80UD, they never had Ukrainian Ammo, it used Chinese ammo from the start, and although reported there was never been any clear evidence of the use by Pakistan of the 9M119 Invar bought from Belarus in 1997. The Al-Khalid-I have reported a new APFSDS-T, must be the D81-PRC05 (Chinese T-125-III).

Humber Mk.III 8/1947-12/1958

T17E1 Staghound 8/1947-12/1974
T17E2 Staghound 8/1947-12/1974, this is AA version with 2x12.7mm

Ferret 1/1975-12/2002, came from Iran to equip the Army 1st Armoured Car Sqn, in 1982 transferred to Rangers for IS.

Mohafiz 11/2000-present

I will also post some pictures.

Thanks

Last edited by RC4; October 20th, 2018 at 03:56 AM..
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  #2  
Old October 19th, 2018, 04:01 PM

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Default Re: Pakistan ORBAT

M3 Lee TD
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Old October 19th, 2018, 04:03 PM

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Default Re: Pakistan ORBAT

Churchill Mk.VI
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  #4  
Old October 19th, 2018, 04:05 PM

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Default Re: Pakistan ORBAT

Al Zarrar Srs.3
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Old October 20th, 2018, 11:11 AM

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Default Re: Pakistan ORBAT

Regarding armour TO&E:

At the beginning the Armoured Regiments (Light Stuart-Humber-Staghound / Medium Sherman / Heavy Churchill) had 75 machines each:
Regimental Headquarters Troop (3 Tanks)
4x Armoured Squadrons (18 Tanks each)

Armoured Squadron
Squadron Headquarters Troop (3 Tanks)
5x Armoured Troops (3 Tanks each)

From 1/1955, the Armoured Regiments were reorganized, they dropped the Light/Medium/Heavy Regiments, there remained Independent Light Armoured Squadrons (14 Tanks each), Independent Armoured Car Squadrons (14 Armoured Cars each), no Heavy Tanks and the rest of the Tanks were Medium, just called Armoured, each Regiment having 44 machines:
Regimental Headquarters Troop (2 Tanks)
Reconnaissance & support Troop (7 Jeeps, see below)
3x Armoured Squadrons (14 Tanks each)

Armoured Squadron
Squadron Headquarters Troop (2 Tanks)
4x Armoured Troops (3 Tanks each)

Also, from 1/1955 the Pakistan Army started organizing Independent Armoured Reconnaissance Squadrons:
Squadron Headquarters Troop (2 Light Tanks or Armoured Cars or Tank Destroyers)
2x Armoured Troops (3 Light Tanks or Armoured Cars or Tank Destroyers each)
2x Reconnaissance & support Troops (7 Jeeps each)

Reconnaissance & support Troop
Troop Headquarters (1 Willys)
3x Reconnaissance & support Sections (1 Willys w/M1919 MMG+ 1 Willys w/M40 106mm RCL+ 3 men scout team each)

After the 1971 war the Pakistan Army started employing Armoured Reconnaissance Squadrons with full MBTs (8 in each Sqn), and from 1/1983 with M113 replacing the Jeeps, so:
Squadron Headquarters Troop (2 Tanks)
2x Armoured Troops (3 Tanks each)
2x Armoured Reconnaissance Troops (7 M113 each)

Armoured Reconnaissance Troop
Troop Headquarters (1 M113)
3x Armoured Reconnaissance Sections (1 M113+ 1 M901 or M113 w/TOW ATGM+ 3 men scout team each)

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Old October 20th, 2018, 01:58 PM
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Confused Re: Pakistan ORBAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by RC4 View Post
This forum is dead, I will unleash some violence!
it's not dead it's resting..... just like a Norwegian Blue



Quote:
Originally Posted by RC4 View Post
M3 Lee 8/1947-12/1966, turretless Tank Destroyer with 17 Pounder in the hull. Not mentioned in the game, must be introduced, it was like Unit10 of Brazil Obat48 without the small turret with the 37mm gun and Browning CMG.

I got this far and stopped. Yes there is a photo....there is nothing to indicate where the photo was taken and ALLEGEDLY there was a "M3 Lancer Tank Destroyer-----Experimental Tank Destroyer built on an M3 Grant Hull" but so far the only info I can find on it is from a modeling site

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/amer...-td-t1603.html

and that photo you posted when checked through google reports "No other sizes of this image found.".....but I did see it reposted on Japanese or Korean websites so you need to cite your source for information on this vehicle because as interesting as it is....it seems more a phantom than something real. The battle that "lancer" is supposed to have participated in occurred 5 months before the initial batch of 17 pounders using 25 pounder carriages were introduced so just how did the Pakistanis get ahold of this thing ?
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Old October 20th, 2018, 02:29 PM
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Default Re: Pakistan ORBAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by RC4 View Post
Al Zarrar Srs.3


Al Zarrar OR Al-Khalid ?
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Old October 20th, 2018, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: Pakistan ORBAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by RC4 View Post

T34/85 1/1966-12/1971 They were Russian built (not Type-58), but had Chinese instructions, so were delivered by China. Ammo should be changed to 24 HE/25 AP/6 HEAT, as used by the Type-58 in Chinese service. There was also a lone SPK5 ARV 1/1966-12/1971 supporting the fleet. They were employed in the 1971 war and then replaced.
Which OOB are you looking at ? There are neither Type-58 nor T34/85 in this OOB so IDK how I can change the ammo load of something that does not exist
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Old October 21st, 2018, 04:41 AM

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Default Re: Pakistan ORBAT

I
The M3 Lee is on the Lahore Army Museum. The markings are from 1st Armoured Division
There is other Photo below, there is a plate in front of the vehicle, but only a local can go and read it.
You can check at page 4 of:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Lee_Grant.pdf

It was no "Lancer", it was a local modification of M3 chassis.

In 1971 it was not in service, because I have seen Army reports of the fighting, and they talked that "the remaining old 17 Pounder towed guns" were at the West.

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Old October 21st, 2018, 06:34 AM

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Default Re: Pakistan ORBAT

I
Al Zarrar is an upgrade of the Chinese Type-59 tank.
Al Khalid is a new tank developed of the Chinese Type-90 tank.
If you can’t tell the difference between them, just look at the wheels, AZ has 5 like Tp59, AK has 6 like Tp90.

There were several prototypes of both, you can see it at the files bellow from “Janes Armor & Artillery”.

In production there was only:
AZ srs.2 – Its your Game 23696 photo. It belongs to the first production vehicles delivered. From then on production switched to the srs.3 without ERA armour, like the photo I posted.
AK and AK-I (Improved) look the same, they are like photo below.

Game 23673 photo is an AZ prototype
Game 23695 photo is Chinese Type-85-III prototype (during test in Pakistan)
Game 23672 photo is the real Pakistan T85IIAP
Game 23703 photo is Chinese Type-59 with 120mm gun prototype

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File Type: zip AK.zip (214.3 KB, 9 views)
File Type: zip Armour A-D.zip (2.29 MB, 9 views)
File Type: zip T90IIM AK.zip (593.8 KB, 8 views)
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