Cost efficient blood hunting

[VedalkenBear]

CP: Actually, regarding the information we have on 0-Blood hunters using SDR, I tend to agree with Archaeolept. We can't say that it hurts the chances of gaining Blood Slaves. I think we can say that it doesn't help.

I'll look into collecting my own data and give some results, with analysis. I'll look at both SDR usage and also the effect of the magic site frequency of the game. (I believe that this also affects the gems you get from random events.)

[Tmoe]

Originally Posted by Huzurdaddi

Just for comparison consider two blood hunters:

Mitclan Priest (upkeep 2.66) average blood ~7
Jotun Skratti (upkeep 16.66) average blood ~8

It seems like the Mitclan Priest is far superior. Indeed from the chart above you are getting 2.5 slaves / gold with the Mitclan Priest and only 0.4 slaves / gold with the Jotun Skratti.

However if you blood hunt with 2 per province, in a 5000k pop province (~70 income) the numbers turn out quite different:

Mitclan Priest ~5.3 gold / slave
Jotun Skratti ~6.5 gold / slave

I do agreed about the lost tax gold being a significant factor when comparing different hunters but I didn't quite understand how did you come up the above mentioned new upkeep costs. I know it has to do with the income of the province but just couldn't find the formula for it. If you wouldn't mind sharing .

Good points by Baalz also. Cheers

[JimMorrison]

I'm actually also curious why that 5k pop province is generating 70 income. Either there is an Arena there, or you have very high scales, because it should be ~50 income with even scales.

It's true that we have so far been only focusing on the cost of the hunters, but I thought that was what this thread was for, because regardless of your scales, the cost of removing taxation will always be fairly static. That is to say, within any given layout, 5k pop will represent X% of your income no matter what. Since that cannot be directly influenced in game, the only thing that can be influenced, is what type and how many Blood Hunters are used.

To put it another way, think of your tax loss as "overhead" and your Blood Hunter upkeep as "operating costs". You can directly influence your operating costs by hiring poorly trained migrant laborers (ie- scouts), but overhead is the cost of doing business - you either pay it, or you do not do business.

I think the only time that tax loss becomes a major consideration is, when (this happens to me too often) all of your provinces are either <3k or >8k in pop, forcing you to choose between the less effective, or the higher cost options. Also sometimes I get so "lucky" and most of my ~5k provinces have Arenas and Gold Mines and such on them. Gee, thanks.


Of course, it cannot be said enough - the use of Blood, where applicable, is essentially (nearly always) cost effective. That is, you can almost always do more with the slaves than with the gold, regardless of other factors. The trick is, how easily can you generate the gold that you DO need, relative to your other Blood competitors? The upkeep on your Blood Hunters is a very large factor in that equation, and is magnified by your scales, which cannot be mitigated in-game, and which it must be assumed you had adequate reasoning for.

[vfb]

The Hidden Gold Mine or Gem provinces should be blood hunted IMO, but tax at 100% and patrol down to 3000 pop, then stop hunting there, but crank taxes to 200% and patrol down to zero population. That's how you can generate the gold you need.

[Huzurdaddi]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

I'm actually also curious why that 5k pop province is generating 70 income. Either there is an Arena there, or you have very high scales, because it should be ~50 income with even scales.

Quite right, I was going by memory how much a 5k population province yield, and since I generally have good scales it comes out around 70 (maybe a touch less). You are totally correct that scales really change the costs.

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

It's true that we have so far been only focusing on the cost of the hunters, but I thought that was what this thread was for, because regardless of your scales, the cost of removing taxation will always be fairly static. That is to say, within any given layout, 5k pop will represent X% of your income no matter what. Since that cannot be directly influenced in game, the only thing that can be influenced, is what type and how many Blood Hunters are used.

Agreed. However I just wanted to show that depending upon how one hunts blood, the difference is not nearly as pronounced as one would think based upon a comparison of blood hunter upkeep costs. Actually, the lost taxes dominate the costs blood hunting in many cases.

Originally Posted by Tmoe

I know it has to do with the income of the province but just couldn't find the formula for it. If you wouldn't mind sharing.

I could have made a booboo ...

Jotun Skratti (16.66*2 + 70)/16 ~= 6.5
Mitclan Priest (2.66*2 + 70)/14 ~= 5.4

But as was noted above some of the assumptions (like good scales) may be incorrect. Actually it looks like scales matter more than how efficient your blood hunters are, assuming you want steady state blood hunting.

[archaeolept]

"Actually, the lost taxes dominate the costs blood hunting in many cases."

yes, exactly, and why scouts are such poor replacements for real bloodhunters. Also why the patch was such a serious nerf to Hinnom's blood power.

[BigDaddy]

Empower costs ~35 blood slaves. 25 slave booster costs ~32 before forging bonus (if any). The increase between B2 and B3 (effective) is about 1.4 blood slaves. 25 turns for empower. ~23 for brazen vessel. Now, boosting further could be done in a cost conscious way with a blood thorn, even to B4 effect or just 1 more B for any B3+ blood hunter. In those case the RoR is equal to the forge cost of the booster. Armor of souls with a 50% forge bonus takes only 25 (adding the cost of the forger's turn) turns to pay off for even your b6 souped up warlock.

Even a modest 25% forge bonus makes the bloodthorn and brazen vessel attractive, especially for low level blood hunters, especially earlier in the game, if you're in a good position.

Also, saving can be achieved if you only forge on turns you've been unlucky and caused an unhealthy rise in unrest.

[Benjamin]

Ah but the limitation on blood hunting is unrest... so it doesn't really matter whether you are hunting with b2 or b10.

I'd also point out that another big cost of blood hunting, at least early on is the commander slot it takes to produce the blood hunter.

Right so if you are having to keep 2 fort lab temple provinces occupied for 15 turns making blood hunters that is a cost.

[BigDaddy]

I have successfully necroed this thread. I think, and it seems to me, that each blood hunter, regardless of success, creates some unrest, so, what you want is a few high level blood hunters. With a blood font drawing 25 slaves a turn you can almost count on unrest even at 0% tax... yes, but the FoB is awesome at blood hunting... Also, this should make it so that you either need less turns to recruit blood hunters (less likely) or will be able to field blood hunters in more locations (more likely). You can use scouts to ferry blood slaves around, which can be really important in combat situations.

Also, the best blood hunters are ussually decent mages you want to have. And buffing their capacity to cast makes them even better, AND at some point the PD plus them might well be enough to consider the province defended (especially because they probably have blood slaves).

and remember:
"Undisciplined jailers have defiled some of your blood slaves."

[Maerlande]

What's a blood font? Gothic hand with a bit of drip?