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  #101  
Old September 2nd, 2012, 02:54 AM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

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Originally Posted by Imp View Post
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That said...
I'd like to see the ordnance loads on "fighter" type aircraft reduced to make them less bang for the buck then dedicated ground support models
Would one not assume in most cases if you are using fighters in a ground attack role its because you have won the air war & they no longer have to play escort to the ground attack boys.
What about scenarios were both players have air support?
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  #102  
Old September 2nd, 2012, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeraaa View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Quote:
That said...
I'd like to see the ordnance loads on "fighter" type aircraft reduced to make them less bang for the buck then dedicated ground support models
Would one not assume in most cases if you are using fighters in a ground attack role its because you have won the air war & they no longer have to play escort to the ground attack boys.
What about scenarios were both players have air support?
Often "fighter" types take-off with a mixed load of air-to-air and air-to-ground, if they need to enguage in aerial combat they jettison the air-to-ground stuff and any auxilery fuel tanks.
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  #103  
Old September 2nd, 2012, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

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Originally Posted by Aeraaa View Post
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Originally Posted by Imp View Post
Would one not assume in most cases if you are using fighters in a ground attack role its because you have won the air war & they no longer have to play escort to the ground attack boys.
What about scenarios were both players have air support?
Often "fighter" types take-off with a mixed load of air-to-air and air-to-ground, if they need to enguage in aerial combat they jettison the air-to-ground stuff and any auxilery fuel tanks.
Still, if a fighter-bomber does that it's bomber role is over, at least until it returns to base to rearm...
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  #104  
Old September 2nd, 2012, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Okay I agree there are cases where a fighter would carry a couple of bombs or rockets but realisticly who would buy them?
Only thing they might get used for is to bleed off AAA as they would be relativly cheaper with the reduced weapon loadout.
Scenario designers can adjust the weapon load accordingly if its needed.
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  #105  
Old September 16th, 2012, 11:15 PM
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Fallout Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Well my research is about finished and really didn't take that long, but after taking a look at a sampling of NATO countries I might take the same tack. What I've found in general terms for NATO without giving away the "big picture" that I'm working on...

1. The B-52 should appear six years earlier then it does, I could've missed something, but. the earliest date I saw in the USA/USMC OOB's was 1960. The B-52A became operational in 1954 followed in 1955 by the B-52B. people forget how old this bomber really is, further the life cycle has been extended out to 2044. The last B-52H was delivered to the USAF in the Fall of 1962 as follows...
"The B-52A first flew in 1954, and the B model entered service in 1955. A total of 744 B-52s were built with the last, a B-52H, delivered in October 1962."
http://www.af.mil/information/factsh...et.asp?fsID=83

2. The F-105 THUNDERCHIEF ("THUD" to those that flew, maintained it and where just glad to see from the ground in NAM.) is sorely under represented in the game. Don't worry not going to go nuts here but I believe there were only two or three units represented. Considering this plane flew over 75% of all ground attack missions in the first half of the Vietnam War, SEAD version not seen either which was also a primary mission and was specialized I believe with the F-105F/G, and was very important to the USAF ground attack capability in Europe in the 60's it's worth a second look to maybe add at least three or four more UNITS. I've seen these planes up close in a couple of air museums but, in the course of my research have found through numerous refs that this plane carried more ordnance then a B-17/24 bomber that also I've seen many times before. If you've seen them you wouldn't believe it. But it'll help to know the "THUD" also had an internal bomb bay. It could/did carry eight 750lb. "Iron Bombs" with auxiliary fuel tanks
http://www.burrusspta.org/thud.html!
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircr...ircraft_id=160
http://www.aviationspectator.com/res...rcraft-profile
"Meanwhile, the USAF was gradually changing the anticipated F-105 mission from nuclear interdiction to conventional bombing. The Look Alike upgrades increased the aircraft's capacity from four to 16 conventional 750 pound (340 kg) bombs on underwing and fuselage centerline hardpoints and added the equipment to launch AGM-12 Bullpup air-to-ground missiles. In June 1961, an F-105D delivered 7 tons (15,430 lb) of conventional bombs during a USAF test — at the time a record for a single-engine airplane and a payload three times heavier than World War II's four-engined heavy bombers such as the B-17 Flying Fortress and the B-24 Liberator, though aerial refueling would be required for long missions. In fact, one of the F-105Ds was named Memphis Belle II after the famed World War II B-17."


3. Turkey OOB for FYI and will be submitted formally later UNITS 558 shows a flying "Armored Car F-100F" and 569 a USAF F-100D. The following pic is of a Turkish F-100D, Could not find a Turkish "F" on BING or Google. Difference between the two visually not noticeable, recommend pic for both.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Turkish F-100D.jpg
Views:	87
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ID:	12032

Regards,
Pat

Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; September 16th, 2012 at 11:26 PM..
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  #106  
Old September 17th, 2012, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Pat.......when we put things like the B-52 in we ask ourselves questions like......." How many would have existed at the first introduction date to participate in ground attack missions? " and the answer is ZERO and if you'd asked yourself that question when you started this quest you would have arrived at the same answer.

Seriously........you want us to make the B-52 available 6 years before the 1960 date that they appear in the game ?

Seriously ? 1954 ?

The first wing to use them didn't become operational until March 1956 and their task was strategic bombing NOT tactical ground support. I think we are being EXTREMELY GENEROUS with the 1960 start date given the first time they were used in conventional bombing was Arc Light in mid 1965 and I am MORE inclinded to move the date BACK to 1965 as it is in the USMC OOB

As for the F-105 ....... are we really under represented in the US OOB for ground attack aircraft with a wide variety of weapons that players have to choose from ?? I'm not quite sure when some players started assuming out purpose was to include every possible combinations of weapons available that any given model of aircraft could carry but we don't. There are 28 units slots let open in the US OOB..... why would we waste them on aircraft when there is already a wide variety of weapon loadouts available to choose from on a variety of aircraft

???

Don
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  #107  
Old September 18th, 2012, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

Keep in mind the B-52's were designed/intended as strategic bombers. So they would not have been available to anyone but SAC when first deployed.

Even in early Vietnam they weren't used for conventional bombing missions (they used B-25's and 26's). I agree with Don that mid 1965 is a "reasonable" availability date.
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Last edited by Suhiir; September 18th, 2012 at 08:47 PM..
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  #108  
Old September 25th, 2012, 04:47 AM
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Default

B-52's may have been rolled out for display in 50's the cold war as a almost global bomber with refueling, to intimidate the ruskies but not used until the 60's in Vietnam.
I was on SAC base for years,you never forget the smell of jet exhuast as 20 or so touch and go when on alert.
Anyways,i'm sure we can all agree,,level bombers are really not an important aspect at all to the game,right?

Last edited by gila; September 25th, 2012 at 05:14 AM..
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  #109  
Old September 27th, 2012, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

A March 2012 report in the magazine Air Forces Monthly suggested that some of the 72 ex-British Harrier-IIs might fly again; the USMC planned to equip two squadrons with the latter GR.9/9A models due to the well maintained condition of the airframes at RAF Cottesmore, where the aircraft were stored and maintained following their retirement.

[[Gary Parsons (March 2012). "UK Harriers will fly again with USMC". Air Forces Monthly (Key Publishing) (288)]]

Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) has since stated, however, that the USMC has never had any plans to operate the ex-RAF Harriers.

[[Majumdar, Dave (9 June 2012). "USMC hopes new method for tracking fatigue life will help extend Harrier to 2030". Flightglobal.com.]]

##########

TAV-8B/AV-8B Day Attack (DA): One Rolls Royce Pegasus F402-RR-406 turbofan engine with approximately 20,280 pounds of thrust.

AV-8B Night Attack (NA)/AV-8B Radar: One Rolls Royce Pegasus F402-RR-408A turbofan engine with approximately 22,200 pounds of thrust.

The original DA AV-8B was replaced by the NA variant in 1990.
The NA configuration includes: night vision goggle-compatible cockpit controls and displays, a wide-field-of-view HUD, NAVFLIR Forward Looking Infrared system, a Digital Map Unit (DMU), and an Angle Rate Bombing System (ARBS) with laser spot tracker, which provides first pass day or night target strike capability at low altitude/high speed.

In 1993, the Radar AV-8B was fielded with the full night fighting capability and an AN/APG-65 Radar set to improve A/G and A/A tactical effectiveness.

In 1994, the U.S.M.C. began a remanufacturing process to convert DA AV-8Bs to the Radar configuration (REMAN); deliveries began in 1996.

The Spanish Navy has DA/Radar AV-8Bs.
The Italian Navy has Radar AV-8Bs only.

Federation of American Scientists
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  #110  
Old September 30th, 2012, 02:14 PM
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Fallout Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.

I was using these as part of a "research" project I was working on. I did not want to waste these resources so I intend to post them on both the Jets and Planes...and MBT Threads. The information has been verified by history and newer documents released from other sources. They serve to both inform and to assist the game designers out there. Posted twice as not everyone has the same shared interests.
The first two is a current listing of all the worlds Air Forces current equipment and other status (See the "Legend" first and on Imagery Equipment. The accuracy of the info is as good as Jane's as they use some of the same sources (And list some of them as I remember.). The rest again are from the CIA, released ten to twenty years later from date of the reports, classified Secret to Top Secret. All are PDF formatted.
Flight Global...
http://img.en25.com/Web/FlightGlobal...Forces2010.pdf
http://img.en25.com/Web/FlightGlobal...2011Report.pdf

CIA AIR...
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000261313.pdf
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000278545.pdf
CIA LAND/AIR...
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0001099668.pdf
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000261340.pdf
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_000...0000261345.pdf


Regards,
Pat

Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; September 30th, 2012 at 02:25 PM..
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