OOBs way out of whack?

[Deputy]

Been playing a computer-generated campaign in WinSPWW2. I have ALL settings in Preferences maximized for Germans and minimized for USA. Even with these settings, US Infantry are deadly against German Infantry at 10 hexes away. US Infantry are killing TIGER TANKS with Bazookas from 4 hexes away. Tiger tanks are massed with 5 tanks firing at one US squad, and the US squad might as well be in an underground bunker. NO damage at all. Tiger tanks might as well be firing blanks.
When played this way in SPWW2 Gen Ed the US gets clobbered. Are the games so different that the Preferences in WinSPWW2 have zero effect on the actual game play? Are the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever? It sure seems that way. If altering the preferences has such little effect, why have Preferences at all?
I can't believe that the MG42 has such little effect on Allied Infantry, yet the Browning .30 cal air cooled hoses down troops like a scythe.
Do I have to physically go into the US OOB and hack them down to some lower level closer to reality, or has someone already done this, and where can I get the fix?

Dep

[Marek_Tucan]

Rule no. 1: The enemy always appears to be superhuman
Rule no. 2: Owntroops always appear to be brainless zombies

I have usually right opposite problem - half of my paratrooper company trying to get around one superhuman ultra deep entrenched überfanatic SS squad And I don't want to talk about morvide accuracy of enemy HMG's at extreme range in my last PBEM

[Deputy]

Marek: Yes...I could belive and agree 100% with what you say.....IF....I hadn't cut the nuts off the US forces by lowering EVERYTHING I could on them and theoretically made the Germans into supermen . Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers. I don't think this situation is random chance. I think maybe there is something in the game engine that actually prevents giving an extreme advdantage to EITHER side. I think I will fool around with the preferences and pump the US side to max and lower the German side. And also put them both at the lowest setting. Just to see what happens

Dep

[Marek_Tucan]

Just made a quick test: USA - rifle platoon 43, two Bazooka platoons. In the open.
Germany: Tiger platoon - one tiger for each Bazooka plt, two for one rifle plt; four FJg platoons.
Preferences: all maxed out for Germans; all lowest possible for US.
US troops didn't opfire moving infantry. Moving Tiger just at ponintblank. Tigers at exp. 120 got insanely many shots and usually their approach to Bazooka teams was one shot - one kill. Moving FjG squad from ca. 8 hexes scored two kills on first salvo. Had three squads promenading around a rifle sqad, no reaction, then one squad fires and obliterates US squad in one salvo, completely. From all the bazookas firing at the two close Tigers, there was one uneffective hit. Preference changes do work...
Now of course this was in the open - if enemy infantry is stuck in cover (rough, trees, buildings...) it can take insane beating and still fight on, esp. with good commander rally rating. Just try British campaign in Africa, stay behind Italian heroes can turn slaughtering general rout with tanks into pretty dangerous undertaking, and often they do recruit from pretty beaten up squads.

[Deputy]

I am in Italy in this campaign. I just can't see where ANY bazooka should be able to easily kill a Tiger at ANY range or in any terrian. It didn't happen in the real war and the chances of it happening in the sim should be zero if I have US Prefs set at lowest number and all Germans set at max numbers. The WW2 bazooka was almost useless against a Tiger unless you hit it from the rear or hit a track. And all US kills so far have been frontal hits. The Tiger shooting both cannon and machinegun against the bazooka takes numerous hits just to get ONE injury. I pounded an Infantry platoon with 5 Tigers from 3 hexes away and the worst that happened was they got "pinned". That's with machineguns AND cannon. US and German Infantry are in the same terrain. US Infantry fire is deadly against German Infantry from 10 hexes away. German Infantry, including the MG42, is worthless. Doesn't even cause US troops to hit the ground.

When I do this in WinSPBMT everything works as it should. Soviet T-80 tanks can't hit the targets, and when they do hit them, it bounces off. Even aluminum APCs survive the hits. Same with Soviet anti-tank missiles. Most times they miss completely. I still think I am gonna have to hack the OOB and reduce the abilities of the US.

[Mobhack]

The M9A1 bazooka penetration was 5 inches - the OOB figure is 12cm. The tiger tank front armour in the OOB is 12, so the basic bazooka round can penetrate, since pen is greater than or equal to armour.(Warhead size, or critical hits, can occasionally increase pen, but as it is a HEAT round, it can have reduced pen or even a fuse failure).

It is impossible to say why you are having problems with your infantry, without any information as to what you are doing, or what status the enemy is in - for example if the USA in your example is dug in and defending, then hitting size 0 bazooka teams will be difficult. And, if you are trying the common beginners mistake of attempting moving your infantry over 1 hex while under fire, then they will suffer, or moving any troops (tanks don't have stabilisers in WW2) over a hex or so, and then expecting good shooting results. See the "Game Play Notes" section of the Game Guide for tactical hints.

Cheers
Andy

[chuckfourth]

Hi Deputy
Yes the Bazooka seems to be overrated in its effectiveness in the game,
from
http://boards.historychannel.com/thr...geID=100030677
"Gavin experimented with all three, using a knocked out Sherman tank I believe. He found the bazooka produces a 1/2 inch hole in the frontal armor, the Panzerschreck (the German Bazooka) made a 1 1/2 inch hole and the Panzerfaust a 3 1/2 inch hole, which would have killed all of the occupants in all likelihood. The bazooka could be effective if a German tank could be hit from the side, with some luck."
and
"Ian Hogg gave these figures for the penetration of various shaped-charge weapons:
PIAT= 75mm
2.36" Bazooka = 80mm
Panzerfaust 30/60 =200mm (at 30 degrees)
88mm Panzerschreck = 100mm"
from I believe
Ian V. Hogg 'The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II'
The Ian Hogg penetration value does agree with this 'testimonial' from
http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_6.htm#p127
"The 1st Battalion refused to panic and set to work with bazookas against the flanks of the blinded tanks. One of the panzers was crippled, but the crew compartment proved impervious to bazooka rounds (perhaps this was a Tiger)"
Apparently bazooka couldnt penetrate tiger side armour, this makes sense as Tiger side armour is 80cm coinciding with Ian Hoggs penetration value for bazooka.
also
from
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...m9-bazooka.htm
"One officer fired 22 -bazooka- rounds at about 15 yards range against the rear of the -t34- tanks where their armor is weakest, but to no effect"
So possibly under lab conditions the bazooka could "penetrate" 5 inches of armour but maybe the hole was just big enough to get a needle through and so did little or no "plasm jet" got through or maybe the heat of the plasma jet after 5 inches of armour was much lower and hence less damaging.
anyway, from
http://www.100thww2.org/support/776tankhits.html
Note from test "e" that after penetrating only 50mm af armour the hole has already decreased to the size of a pencil.
Certainly a lot of sites say the bazooka wasnt very effective against german armour but was more commonly used against bunkers.
various sites give the bazooka various penetration values
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust13.htm
for instance quotes a penetration of 100mm ie 10.
This site quotes hoggs penetration of 100mm for panzershreck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerschreck
In-game Panzerschreck has penetration of 20 twice Ian Hoggs figure, again the difference may in some way be explained by little effect after penetration is achieved through the thicker armours. Perhaps like antitank rifles HEAT warheads should be given more "star" results rather than outright kills, and possibly have their penetrations reduced somewhat to confirm to the "real-life" testimonials and Ian Hoggs figures?
Best Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

Every once in awhile we get a "complaint" that makes me wonder if we are all playing the same game but with all your buggering about with the preferences God only knows what's happening with your game. First we had the "Unkillable aircraft!!!" thread and now this. Marek ran a test with the preferences settings set the way you say you seem to have them and got NONE of the results you claim. I just ran a test scenario with the preferences set normally with US bazooka teams in a trench with the trench in trees and Tiger tanks four hexes away and I saw ONE tiger destroyed as the result of a "Shot hits target weak point for 2 extra penetration" and I've run that test 4 times from both the US and German perspectives. I've seen lot's of Bazooka teams destroyed though . I've also see way more bazooka misses than hits and WAY more hits without killing penetration than hits that kill. I had one Tiger hit in one test game at LEAST ten times and all it ended up with was 3 points of damage.

In the DOS version it was possible for the preferences file to pick up bad data and cause all kinds of weirdness. We changed the way that was saved in the windows version and have not had any problems with it but there are always exceptions and since your results are WAY off the scale here is what I suggest you do.....

Go to WinSPWW2\Game Data and DELETE the file Game Preferences.ini. A new one will be generated when you start up the game. You will need to reset Breakdowns to ON and possibly the Hex grid, ID tags and fast arty and "AI tank Heavy"( depending on what you prefer ) Then adjust the battle points and map size and then LEAVE THE PLAYER PREFERENCES ALONE and play the game that way for a few weeks but for fun, before you do, please take a screen shot of your preferences so we can all see what you have set there now. It *MAY* be possible that you have found some flaw in the preferences code when they are screwed way off normal but I won't know that until I see what you have set up there now.......better still, zip up your existing Preferences.ini. and post it to this thread. That way we all can see EXACTLY what you have in there now.

Don

[Deputy]

Hi Andy,
That's interesting info. But just shoveling data into the mix isn't very useful. The bazooka, like a single M4 tank with the 75MM gun, was all but worthless against Tiger tanks. IDEALLY, with a perfect 90 degree hit, the 5 inch penetration would be possible. But ideal hits while in combat are notoriously elusive Bazookas were notorious for bouncing off Tiger tanks. Even the MKIV had to be hit in just the right spot to kill it. Again, a REAR impact in the engine area would be the ideal hit.

As to the M9A1, my scenario was taking place in Italy in 1943. The M9 is the weapon being used. The M9A1 didn't come out till September 1944.

But ALL of that shouldn't matter one bit. What SHOULD make a MAJOR difference is my Preferences settings. I have ALL of the US settings set at lowest levels and all the German settings set at highest. So no bazooka should be able to hit and kill a Tiger tank unless it has repeated impacts to the rear of the tank. US Infantry dug in? Sjouldn't matter hardly at all. Two direct hits with an 88 on the Infantry hex and they should either be eliminated or in flight and disperced. That's where I see the problem. We could split hairs forever about whether a bazooka can kill a Tiger. But with the settings I have in place, it shouldn't even be able to HIT one, much less destroy it.

Dep

[Deputy]

Oops...sorry all. I didn't see the posts under Andy's at first. I will zip up my preferences ini and post it ASAP.

Dep