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Old April 11th, 2019, 02:30 AM

chris h chris h is offline
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Default LOS and Z fire under v12

Please don't shoot me. Please read then argue constructively.

Having played the game using v12 LOS and Z key rules I've reach a conclusion that some parts of it are wrong.

In v12, Z fire is now only allowed into hexes you can see so none of the Z fire ability outline below applies.

With my curiosity peeked I worked out to the nearest 5 what density actually blocked LOS and how far through woods would Z fire work in v11. It turns out that LOS is blocked at 35. That worked out to be seven hexes with 5 density woods, two hexes with 30 and only one hex with 40 density. Play any game and that’s what you get. This has not changed in v12.

Z Fire under v11 went out to approx 200, way beyond what is visible. Exactly how far I didn't bother with as it was ridiculous and the changes made in v12 are all perfectly valid in that regard.

What density would prevent Z fire? I personally don’t think it should be as low as 35, in fact you might even be able to catch glimpses of stuff further away but I’ll leave that bit out. If you look at the density figures as percentages, 35 is only approx a third, yes I know trees are random but it’s still only a third. Bullets don’t magically stop at that, they will travel further and your not trying to kill something, just make them keep their heads down while another unit gets closer. Just because you can’t see the location does not mean it’s not valid.

OK! what is a reasonable figure. That’s a difficult one but I wouldn’t go stupid on this perhaps say 45-60 for Z fire, probably only 45-50. If it was 50 then a typical woods hex with either 30-40 density would be able Z fire one hex beyond what it could see. I would also reduce the chance of a casualty into such hexes due to the random nature of: a the trees and b the fire but it’s pretty slim as it is. The pinning effects would remain the same.

How would it look in practice. Here’s a zipped image from a current game, blocking terrain includes buildings which always have a density >=100 so always block LOS and Z fire, trees in the image are all density 40 and block LOS and Z fire.

The rough circles and crosses represent how the rules work, A Green circle in LOS, a red circle Z fire allowed. Crosses in red represent hexes were Z fire is allowed under v11 but shouldn’t be. If there's nothing in the hex neither is impossible. LOS is centre of hex to centre of hex.

I used the CD version’s unit view option to highlight the area a unit is supposed to be able to see, which includes the backside of the large building strangely. How the unit can actually see it is beyond me but they are highlighted by the routine and can be Z fired at. Seems an anomaly. This leads to the why front two can be Z fired at. First the trees are only density 40 but as well as that, it’s height. They are twice as high as the trees so are likely to be visible, perhaps not for full targetted fire but certainly for Z fire. Remember there are no floor levels in the game.

Now the most contentious part for me, Z fire down a hexside. My argument is that if either of the hexes do not block LOS then Z fire should be possible as you can see approx half of it. If a hexside further down the line has blocking terrain on the opposite side then it is blocked of Z fire.

Now the biggest in game problem with v12 is few of the scenarios/campaigns were designed with the new rules in mind. Many would need far more mortar/art support or ammo to enable the suppression of units burried in woods, not unless you want to loss most of you force getting to a one hex range. Another option is to work your way round them but that would require longer scenario etc.

All-in-all I see the reason for making the changes but I think they have gone too far.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 04:23 AM

jivemi jivemi is offline
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Default Re: LOS and Z fire under v12

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris h View Post
Please don't shoot me. Please read then argue constructively.

Having played the game using v12 LOS and Z key rules I've reach a conclusion that some parts of it are wrong.

In v12, Z fire is now only allowed into hexes you can see so none of the Z fire ability outline below applies.

With my curiosity peeked I worked out to the nearest 5 what density actually blocked LOS and how far through woods would Z fire work in v11. It turns out that LOS is blocked at 35. That worked out to be seven hexes with 5 density woods, two hexes with 30 and only one hex with 40 density. Play any game and that’s what you get. This has not changed in v12.

Z Fire under v11 went out to approx 200, way beyond what is visible. Exactly how far I didn't bother with as it was ridiculous and the changes made in v12 are all perfectly valid in that regard.
BANG! Just kidding.

Actually my experience with v12 is that z-fire through non-blocking terrain is as before, effectively unlimited within constraints of relative elevation and weapons range. IOW you can still shoot through smoke or even flaming wrecks.

What's changed is that any blocking terrain, including trees and buildings, block z-fire beyond them. So advancing through forests and urban areas becomes more problematical without artillery support.

Whether or not this makes many scenarios unplayable for some gamers is an apparently moot point, since Camo Workshop seems determined to eliminate the arty spotting z-fire exploit as a bone of contention in PBEM matches. In any event I personally played without z-fire through trees and buildings in literally hundreds of scenarios before utilizing it as a "crutch" in recent years. Made it lots easier to get DVs that way.

To make a long story short I'm satisfied with the changes made in v12. Sorry.

Last edited by jivemi; April 11th, 2019 at 05:23 AM..
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Old April 11th, 2019, 07:29 AM
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DRG DRG is offline
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Default Re: LOS and Z fire under v12

Anyone can load the GG and using Ctrl+F enter ' block los ' and 10 instances will appear and the seventh one has this

Quote:

Ground Height and Obstacle Height are self explanatory but Terrain Density , while being an old concept for the game, it will be a new one to most players. Terrain Density or just “Density” for short is a value the game uses to determine how solid or transparent a bit of terrain is. For example, trees block Line of Sight (LOS) to the next hex when they are greater than >30 density. If they are under 31 LOS is deemed not fully blocked and you can see into the hexes beyond that hex.

Density is cumulative for purposes of LOS. A hex with trees that have a density rating of 20 will not block LOS to the hex beyond it but if that hex has trees that are also have a density rating of 20, LOS will be blocked beyond that hex. Theoretically, you could have a number of sparsely treed hexes in a row before LOS would be blocked but typically in the game the maximum would be two but please note those two hexes do NOT have to be adjacent. The game has worked this way since SP1 was first released, we are just displaying to players for the first time.


When we made the change to correct the arty countdown cheat we fully understood, based on the past number of complaints we have had regarding some PBEM players overreliance on Z-Fire to play the game that we would be changing the way the game played for some players and I said as much when I wrote the release notes and you seem to have relied very heavily on it. For those players that rarely use Z-Fire nothing much changes for them and there is no need to increase arty in old scenarios because I am of the firm belief that most, if not all, scenario designers are not Z-Fire overusers. "Z-Fire" is only mentioned ONCE in all the scenario write ups and in that one case it is recommended NOT TO use Z-fire.

Chris.....you are the exception, not the rule.


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Old April 12th, 2019, 05:08 AM
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Felix Nephthys Felix Nephthys is offline
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Default Re: LOS and Z fire under v12

Chris H, I think this was discussed about a week and a half ago.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=52196&page=5

It seems that your style of play primarily derives from the use of the Z fire "cheat" and now that it has been taken away you will simply HAVE to adjust your tactics to something more real-world. In the world I live in the direct fire weapons you have been using as indirect fire weapons simply DO NOT have that capability and bullets simply CAN NOT penetrate certain terrain, no matter how much you will them to.

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Last edited by Felix Nephthys; April 13th, 2019 at 04:57 AM..
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