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Old February 27th, 2020, 06:18 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Fortifications German

I saw that one of the Omaha maps in the game is correct for that battleground and thought that It would be great fun to buy exactly what the Germans had at Omaha on the day and see how I would go. So I had a look at this site
https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/d-d...l/strongpoints
Which gives a pretty good account of the Omaha beach defences but unfortuneately it was impossible to put that defence together, heres why, sorry in advance.
For unemplaced 37mm and 47mm AT guns, for the whole of Omaha beach there was only one of each. But you can only buy AT guns in sets of 3, would there be any chance of creating a formation containing just a single German AT gun Like the Finns and Russians can?

Most game Fortifications, ie Pillboxes/Bunkers/Casements etc follow the pattern of some type of Gun (AT, field, etc) in slot 1 and 3 L/M/HMGs in the remaining slots all firing in the same arc. In reality German gun bunkers will have just the gun in it. If it is a MG bunker then just a single MG or if a real bunker has multiple MGs then each covers its own seperate arc, with little or no overlap, never 4 Weapons all firing in the same arc as in the game. The historical bunker that most closely conforms to a game type bunker is Regelbau 139a (R 139a)
http://www.regelbau.dk/regelbau_visbunker.asp?id=487
This link mentions how R 139a's MG embrasure can have a twin MG in the Westwall but is usually a single MG in the Atlantic wall.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewto...?f=70&t=126962
R 139a has the 4.7cm (t) gun, often with a coaxial MG37 (t) MG plus a seperate HMG embrasure. It also has a third chamber for a LMG but this is specificaly to protect the rear door. German bunkers were usually dug well into the ground so the door is often below ground level or accesed via a trench. So the LMG has no useful field of fire and in most bunkers actually faces rearwards. I would not include the LMG in the bunkers armament. So unit 543 with 4.7cm (t), MMG, MMG, MMG. can be morphed into a R 139a or R 642 with 4.7cm (t), TMG, HMG. All 3 having the same arc of fire.
Here are pictures of the armoured plate the 4.7cm pak gun fired through.
http://www.bunkersite.com/panzer/archive/770p4.html
These mountings were lifted straight out of Czech fortifications wich is why they dont conform to usual German practice of one weapon per embrasure, Multiple embrasures invariably face in different directions. The thickness of the armour plate (770P4) in R339a is given as 15mm but that is only a very small area around the gun ball mount, the embrasure then quickly thickens. A 100mm plate (770aP4) could be hoised up to shut the embrasure, but then the gun cannot fire.
There are a few later bunkers built to house the same czech 4.7cm gun with its coaxial MG and armoured embrasure, 642 is one.
The German equivalent is the 3.7cm PAK in a bunker but used a much thicker armoured plate see
http://www.bunkersite.com/panzer/arc...ak-platte.html
Plates for this bunker are called the 738P3, 200mm thick, 727P3 100mm thick, 413P9 100mm thick. By 1944 738P3 may also have been used with 5cm and 7.5cm Pak The text is confusing but I think that the gun fires through a 100mm plate and there is a further 100 plate that either increases the overall thickness to 200mm or is raised to completely block the embrasure, giving 200mm but the gun cannot fire anymore. So the 3.7cm pak bunkers 141, 530 and 531 should have a Turret Front (TF) value of either 10 or 20 not 3. And possibly the same for some 5cm and 7.5cm pak bunkers. I think there should also be a higher TF value for the 4.7cm Czech gun bunkers also, unit 543.

OK now to the 'regular' bunkers. There are two main types, The MG bunker and the field piece bunker, First the MG bunkers, these often mounted the MG08. Here are the plans for German bunkers
https://www.bunkerinfo.nl/2011/01/regelbau-series.html
You can see here that German MG bunkers have only a single HMG mounted in a thick steel plate. As with virtually all German MG bunkers there is no where to fire any other weapon from, except for the usually rear facing, limited range, door defence position. In the HMG bunkers the frontal slit is always filled in with a sheet of armour. The MG embasures armour plate was commonly 100mm thick (plate 7P7, 9242 ordered by 1944) giving a German MG bunker a TF defence value of 10 instead of the current 3.
This page shows some of the armoured plates the HMGs fired through
http://westwall.de/schartenpanzerung.html
The armoured plates have thicknesses of 200mm, 100mm, 25mm and 30mm. 60mm was also available. So German MG bunkers can have TF values of anywhere between 3 and 20. The thicknesses increase as the war proceeds. The MG bunkers built on the Atlantic wall used 100mm armour plates.
So all German MG bunkers have only the single armoured embrasue to fire a single MG through, the game bunkers should have all the "extra" weapons removed.
R 630 is a larger MG bunker design but still has only a single HMG. It does however include a single LMG for local defence (not back door defence) and sensibly, considering its role, it has all round traverse. It is mounted in a Ringstand. A Ringstand or Tobruk is the same setup as a gun emplacement, see
https://www.reddit.com/r/wwiipics/co...hinegun_point/
And here is all the different types of Ringstand. Ringstands usually had a crew of 2.
https://www.bunkerinfo.nl/2010/12/vf-typologie.html
These Ringstands were by far the most common type of fortification, at least 3000 built, but don't appear in the game. So to get the R 630 situation we need a MG bunker with a single HMG and a seperate new LMG emplacement just like unit 411 (8.8cm Gun Empl) but with just a single LMG. This gives the LMG the required all round fire. the LMG emplacement can then be placed in the same or an adjacent hex to a single HMG bunker. This gives an "authentic" Omaha beach MG bunker.
The second method of mounting HMGs is in a cloche, this links shows the set up inside the cloche.
http://www.westwall.de/20p7.html
Though the cloche doesnt rotate it still has 6 embrasures giving all round fire and contains two HMGs. So The German MG Cloche could be done in the game exactly the same as a French unit 85 Tourelle MG with just one or maybe two HMGs. As it had armour 250mm thick, TF, and all other armour values, should be 25. There is also a half cloche but this might be too hard to make in the game as it needs 180 degree arc, or 3 x 60, but has only the single HMG.

Besides the Ringstand LMG "emplacement" the other common piece of equipment providing local defence is the 50mm mortar. These had been retired from the infantry and so many found their way into permanent fortifications. At Omaha beach there were 8. These can appear in an open topped ringstand, as did 81mm motars, The 50mm mortar also comes in a purpose built fortification.
In a Ringstand see
http://deutsches-afrikakorps.blogspo...fications.html
In a fortification see
http://www.bunkersite.com/panzer/archive/424p01.html
The 50mm mortar either in a tobruk or armoured emplacement was there to give indirect fire into areas the local defence ringstand LMG couldnt reach. In both cases and for a 81mm mortar Ringstand as well, the weapon is below ground level and so is only capabe of indirect fire. So Ideally the 50mm or 81mm mortar Ringstands should be the same as a gun emplacement but with just the mortar and it should only have indirect fire. For the fortification M19 50mm mortar, it should be the same as the french unit 60 Tourelle 81mm but having indirect fire available only. As they are all below ground and so invulnerable to direct fire, these three mortar emplacements should have 20 turret values same as the hull values. Armour for the 50mm M19 fortification mortar was 250 or 290mm. This M19 mortar has a range of 750m and the Germans also used a french 50mm mortar lifted from the Maginot line in Ringstands with a range 950m. Ringstands were built from 1942 onwards.
The Germans also had the 10,5 cm leichte Turmhaubitze L/14 M100 mounted in an underground bunker, firing indirect only, behind either 420mm or 250mm armour, see
http://www.bunkersite.com/panzer/archive/73p9.html
I think there was also a 150mm weapon in this same configuration.

The other type of Bunker is the gun bunker, there are two types Pak and Field. There is a good article on German fortifications here
http://1.droppdf.com/files/mKxmR/hit...hris-mcnab.pdf
Here are two quotes
"Of the remainder, about 335 were potential candidates for conversion to 7.5cm PaK 40 guns. Ideally, the bunkers needed a new armoured embrasure for the gun; these were difficult to manufacture, transport, and install so in the event only about 100 bunkers were rearmed with the 7.5cm PaK 40."
This seems to suggest to me that the 7.5cm PAK wasnt used in the Atlantic wall unless they could mount it firing through an armoured plate rather than an open embrasure, plate would have been minimum100mm thick at this point in the war.
"Batterie located in Gatteville in H679 casemates had their 15.5cm K420(f) guns behind a traversable armoured shield that completely covered the embrasure" and also from the same article;
About pg 537 shows 88mm PAK mounted with a jagdpanther mantlet. There wasnt enough hulls to put these guns in so they ended up in the Atlantic wall.
About pg 553 is a picture of a 7.7 field gun firing through armoured plate.
Though most Images show PAK and Field gun fortifications with a large unarmoured opening which the gun fired through, in some cases a thick plate could be used to block the entrance. In the book Fortress Third Reich by the Kaufmanns they descbibe some of the armoured plates, we have 768P4 stahlschartenplatte fur FK 16, a steel embrasure plate for a field gun B1 strength so about 120mm thick. And 480P2 Panzerschartenplatte fur Pak (30') an armoured embrasure plate same thickness, It is difficult to tell if these armoured plates were moveable and used to completely block the embasure or embrasured and fired through. R 611 for 75 to 155mm Field guns for example defineitley has a vertically sliding armoured plate to fully seal of the embrasure. While R 516a which took the German 105 howitzer or M18 15cm Gun or similar peices, appears to fire through an unarmoured reasonalbly open embasure relying on the guns shield to provide protection. R 663b fires throgh an armoured plate 25mm thick and had a 35mm roof and a second opening in the armoured plate for a MG to fire through. Lastly, 768P4 was a stahlschartenplatte fur FK 16 field gun of B1 strength or about 120mm thick.as well, see
https://www.bunkerinfo.nl/2010/01/re...61-tm-670.html
Here's an example of a French gun 10.5cm K331 (f) gun placed behind a 30mm armoured shield, 828P6.
http://bunkersite.com/panzer/828p6.php
You could fill the entire German OOb with just their fortifications, there are of masses of them, Ive just attemped to describe some here as background.

The Germans mounted redundant tank turrets on Ringstands and they had a lot of these. At Omaha beach there were 7 Renault 35 turrets, these were a very common Panzerturm (Pz.T), They are missing in the game, but they were much more common than the games 47mm French Pz.T turret. Also missing in the German OOB were the relatively common Pz.T created from redundant tank turrets from FT-17(unit 301 Finnish OOB), Pz38 (t), Pz II and Pz I. Pz 1 Pz.T had the turret front armour increased to 20mm.
So against this background lets see what is in the game. There are about 31 German bunkers at the moment, to disrupt scenarios minimally, of even ot at all, I would suggest these changes;

Type Unit No.
2cm 526 529
2cm casement doest exist change 526 into 2cm Pz II turret Pz.T, change 529 into 2cm flak (Can be flakvierling) open emplacement. Substitute 526 for 529 if used in any scenarios.
3.7cm pak 35/36 141 530 531
Substitute 531 for 530 and 141 if used in any scenarios. Change 141(doesnt exist) into LMG Ringstand. Change 530 into M19 50cm mortar bunker. Increase 531 TF to about 10
3.7cm tak30 L40 527 528
Substitute 527 for 528 if used in any scenarios. Change 528 to 5cm gun open emplacement. The 5 cm gun mounting were just simple pintles with no gearing (sockelle mount ) should have little or no RF anf FC values. Also you could substitute 531 for 527 and have a Field Gun casement with a 7.7 FK 16 German Field gun or similar, you might be able to poke a rifle out somewhere but unlikely. The crew were issued a LMG.
4cm pak192 (e) 532
4.5cm pak 182 (r) 533
Can Substitute 533 for 532 their performance is similar. Change 532 into the 10,5 cm direct fire bunker R 663b, see above.
4.7cm pak36 (t) 534
Can Substitute 534 for 535 their performance is similar. Change 535 into the Ringstand with a 50mm mortar.
4.7cm pak183 (f) 535
5cm pak38 L60 536
7.5cm pak 97 L36 144, 146, 316, 537
Substitute 146 for 144, 316, 537 if used in any scenarios. Change 537 into pz I Pz.T. Change 316 into 3.7cm flak emplacement. Change 146 into 10.5cm field gun casement.
7.5cm pak 40 L48 147
8.8cm pak 43 L71 148, 538
Substitute 148 for 538 if used in any scenarios. Change 538 into 3.7cm R35 turret Pz.T, this last already exists in the Italian OOB as unit 338 Torretta Carro.

Then
Remove the three MMGs from unit 531, it has an armoured embrasure, there is nowhere to fire the 3 MGs from. Unit 534 should have just a possible TMG and definite HMG as extras. not 3 MMGs. There is nowhere to fire a rifle out of.
Remove the three MMGs from unit 536. The bunker would contain just this gun. The crew would have rifles but not an LMG. The rifles could probably be fired out of the embrasue.
Remove the two MMGs and LMG from unit 146/147. The bunker would contain just the 5cm pak. The crew would have rifles but not an LMG. the rifles could probably be fired out of the embrasue.
Remove the MMG and LMG from unit 148, leave the rifle. The bunker would contain just this gun. The crew would have rifles but not an LMG. the rifles could probably be fired out of the embrasue.
In game the FT-17 turret appears as a Pz.T but more common was the H35 turret Pz.T this had better armour values of 4 for Turret front, sides, rear and roof instead of FT-17s turret with 2,1,1,1.

MG 143, 145
Change 145 into German 2 HMG cloche (Picture is now correct), ie giving all round fire as in French unit 85 Tourelle MG. Change 143 into Single HMG bunker, Remove Rifle, MMG and LMG from both bunkers there is nowhere to fire any of these weapons

Emplacements
8.8cm Gun Empl 411
10.5cm Gun Empl 509
10.5cm Flak 38 were first delivered/emplaced in 1940, game has start date 1/45 The dual purpose naval gun,10.5cm Schiffskanone L60 was shore mounted in 1937.
12.8cm Gun Empl 508
These guns were emplaced from August 42 game has start date 1/45. 6 mobile 128s produced.

Ammo bunker 524
Schutzbunker 525
These bunkers were very common, two types existed one for 10 men, one for 20, none for 40. Change local defence to LMG from rifle.
Coastal Fort 315
I would replace this uncommon 17cm gun with a 15cm gun, there were many types in this calibre, and give it a AP shell and a decent RF value, antishipping guns always come with a quality rangefinder.

All of the above units could drop a grenade out the front.

Pz.T
Pantherturm 286
Those of these purpose built as a fortification had a thicker roof, maybe +1
Panzerturm T-34 297
Panzerturm (f) 298
Panzerturm PzIV 299

Sewer 052
This seems a very strange unit maybe could change to a typical quickly constructed earthen/log bunker sporting just a LMG and perhaps a rifle and grenade, 3-4 men.

With these changes you can set up Omaha beach almost as it was and try your luck. I had a good look at German casements, forts, bunkers, pillboxes ect when putting this post together and Ive chosen these particular new items so the game would include at least one representative from each of the most common German fortification types.These changes also allow the German resistance nests to become the difficult propositions to destroy that they actually were. I can check to see which scenarios these changes might effect if you like.
Some more General points.
Fortifications equipment in the game mostly has the same ammo loadouts as the equivalent free standing Item. Ammo loadouts in fortifications were usually much more here is some examples,
R 612; with a 10.5cm field gun, 500 shells
R 649, 650, 651; 10.5cm howitzer, 800 shells
The M19 50mm mortar had 3944 mortar bombs available and could fire them at 120 rpm.
R 642 the 4.7cm Pak gets 1000 shells.
R 505 the 3.7cm Pak gets 1000 shells.
Once built the Fortifications pretty much stayed in place I would suggest they all have a finish date of April 1945
For Omaha scenario USA gets the wrong default vessels they get LVTs, should be landing craft. Also disembarking from landing craft does not trigger mines, Strangely dragons teeth stop infantry disembarking but not tanks. Armour and Infantry can disembark into wire with no penalty. Armour can disembark onto mines but with no penalty but incredably mines actually make it impossible for infantry to disembark.
There is a full list of bunkers and many illustrations here
http://www.regelbau.dk/regelbau_allemodeller.asp

From Harry Yeide's book The Tank Killers A history of America's world war II tank destroyer force. "The first assaults on the nearly impervious fortresses had begun as early as 27th September, when the 818th tank destroyer battalion participated in a costly and ultimately unsuccessful 5th infantry Division bid to take fort driant...The tank destroyer fire proved completely ineffective against the works-but no great shame, because heavy artillery and air strikes failed as well."
The tank destroyers have 90mm guns. There is a detailed map of the Fort in this article.
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/20...s-lost-battle/
It didnt have a lot of stuff but managed to resist an entire infantry division.
In light of this I would also request that fortifications crews receive little if any suppression, otherwise they are too easily suppresed into impotence. I have shown in another thread that suppression in the game is about 62 times more effective than it really was.
I think that HMG killing is very underrated in the game, less than a sniper. Sniper kill rate seems about right. I would suggest beefing up HMG kill rate to the point where a one HMG bunker kills about as many as the 4 HMG bunker does at the moment. A quote from World War 2 Volume 8.
"The Maxim machine guns Models 1908 and 1908/1915 were the front line weapons of the imperial German Army in World War I, and as such earned the doubtful distinction of Killing more people than any other military instrument designed by man."
  #2  
Old February 27th, 2020, 12:25 PM
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Exclamation Re: Fortifications German

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post

Sewer 052
This seems a very strange unit maybe could change to a typical quickly constructed earthen/log bunker sporting just a LMG and perhaps a rifle and grenade, 3-4 men.
It was added primarily for urban scenarios like Stalingrad or The Warsaw uprising that someone was going to create a campaign for years ago and never did. The unit is not going to be changed



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
I can check to see which scenarios these changes might effect if you like.
Don't bother. NONE of this is going to be changed


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwikkiwik View Post
Once built the Fortifications pretty much stayed in place I would suggest they all have a finish date of April 1945
Do I need to really need to explain why they stay available until the end of the time the game runs to? Seriously? When you write things like this it just tells me that you really have no clue how this game works. Perhaps someone with more patience can explain why bunkers and fortifications stay available in the game past April 1945 but that's not me ATM. Please stop wasting my time and yours with these massive posts.
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Old February 27th, 2020, 12:46 PM
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Default Re: Fortifications German

Kiwikkiwik (man thats a lot to type),

The obvious reason that the dates for a lot of thing is because of people like me and those that came before me.

May I point you to several scenarios I created for you playing pleasure:

Quote:
572 Surprise Attack 7/45 1945 7 31 P2 Assault 30 12 USA 11 Russia
573 Counterattack 7/45 1945 7 31 P2 Assault 30 11 Russia 12 USA
574 Delayed British Attack 8/45 1945 8 1 Meeting Engagement 27 7 GB 11 Russia
575 British Recon Ambush 8/45 1945 8 1 Meeting Engagement 27 7 GB 11 Russia
576 It's Their Fault 8/45 1945 8 21 P2 Advance 30 11 Russia 16 Germany
577 Jumping Into Danger 8/45 1945 8 20 P1 Advance 32 16 Germany 11 Russia
578 Brits vs. Pseudo Brits 9/45 1945 9 20 P1 Advance 32 7 GB 11 Russia
579 Damn Panzer Aces 9/45 1945 9 21 P2 Advance 27 12 USA 11 Russia
611 The Coconut Plantation 6/45 1945 6 21 P2 Advance 26 15 ANZAC 5 Japan
700 Surabaya Slugfest 11/45 1945 11 31 P2 Assault 30 18 India 41 Thai
710 On China Station 7/46 1946 7 31 P2 Assault 30 13 USMC 14 Chinese Communists
720 Smertniki 8/45 1945 8 41 P2 River Crossing 33 11 Russia 5 Japan
730 The Deadly Line 8/45 1945 8 31 P2 Assault 28 11 Russia 5 Japan
739 Forging Spetsnaz 8/45 1945 8 31 P2 Assault 36 11 Russia 5 Japan
740 The IJA's Last Battle 10/45 1945 10 21 P2 Advance 30 5 Japan 28 Netherlands
760 Unlikely Allies 11/45 1945 11 21 P2 Advance 32 18 India 41 Thai
Some of those scenarios may contain things that run past April. Hope this makes sense.
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Old March 2nd, 2020, 09:34 AM

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Default Re: Fortifications German

If I am not mistaken, the game manual states quite clearly somewhere that the German OOB stretches to the end of 1946 in order for the players to generate various "what if" scenarios/campaigns based on the premise that the Germans would have been able to prolong the war by an extra year by some miracle. Though the historical likelihood of such an occurrence might be up to debate, the premise is not exactly rare in popular fiction (including secret Nazi bases in Antarctica or Moon). There are even a couple of German "what-if" heavy tank designs included in the OOBs for 1946, to pit against some of the heavy hardware that US, Britain and Soviet Union managed to crank out a bit too late to see action before the war ended.

As for recreating the Omaha beach defenses, I would recommend opening a scenario editor and creating a new amphibious landing scenario with the map you had in mind. You can then place the fortifications (including ones nicked from other OOBs) exactly where you want and add/remove armaments as much as you want. That said, there is little point in issuing bunkers with more ammunition than they can consume during the duration of a game.
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Old March 11th, 2020, 04:41 AM

Kiwikkiwik Kiwikkiwik is offline
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Default Re: Fortifications German

Thanks for explaining that ASL, but I do understand, I just put in a date when I meant the end of the game. Thanks for the scenario list, but I just play PBEM as I find the AI a bit weak.
Thank you Greifbringer for your suggestions, I just thought it would be nice for anyone else that might want to play German on Omaha beach that they could buy the actual units off the shelf instead of having to create them. It would also be nice for other players if the US arrived in the historical landing craft instead of LVTs.. My meaning is not to give bunkers more ammunition than they can consume in the game, just more than they currently get, depending on the bunker type of course, some already have extra ammo some don't.
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