.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Raging Tiger - Save $6.00
World Supremacy - Save $7.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPMBT
Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 16th, 2017, 08:25 AM

whdonnelly whdonnelly is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: HQ-RS, Kabul, Afghanistan
Posts: 134
Thanks: 24
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
whdonnelly is on a distinguished road
Default Helicopter mounted Stingers

Does anyone have any game experience using helicopters carrying SAMs? So far I've not been able to get them to fire as anti-aircraft missiles. The best I've been able to do so far is to manually fire them at other helicopters.
Thanks
Will
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old January 16th, 2017, 08:42 AM
RightDeve's Avatar

RightDeve RightDeve is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Yogyakarta, Nusantara
Posts: 370
Thanks: 52
Thanked 60 Times in 38 Posts
RightDeve is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

Maybe the thing should not move first, and then it fires in the OpFire phase?
Never tried it though.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to RightDeve For This Useful Post:
  #3  
Old January 16th, 2017, 08:57 AM
Aeraaa's Avatar

Aeraaa Aeraaa is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 245
Thanks: 46
Thanked 68 Times in 51 Posts
Aeraaa is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

They do work and even better than they should. I shot down two fixed winged aircraft in a battle with AA missiles fired by Cobra gunships (one MiG-27 and one Su-22 IIRC).
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Aeraaa For This Useful Post:
  #4  
Old January 16th, 2017, 09:52 AM
Mobhack's Avatar

Mobhack Mobhack is online now
General
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dundee
Posts: 4,797
Thanks: 13
Thanked 924 Times in 654 Posts
Mobhack is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

Missiles require the firer to be halted (though if they have a stabiliser, you can move as far as the stabiliser rating and still get a (reduced chance) shot - st least for ATGM. I'm not going into the code to see if that also applies to SAM).

Helicopters with SAMs are really just another form of mobile SP-SAM, and were really only there for helo on helo action. But they will pop off at strike air on occasion.

Personally I do not bother - I take the helo with more ATGM or whatever if there is a choice, as I prefer my SP-AA to be dedicated vehicles placed on over-watch and I would rather that any chopper I buy had those few extra anti-tank weapons. In addition in battles you usually either have air superiority (so no enemy air about), or the opposite (so you dont have the helos, bar any campaign core ones!). Air parity is comparatively rare, where both sides get roughly similar number of air strikes at purchase time. Therefore, in my opinion, helos with SM on board are generally a waste of points, since tank or grunt bashing (depending on weaponry) is their prime task - not stooging around as mobile AA systems.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mobhack For This Useful Post:
  #5  
Old January 16th, 2017, 10:39 AM
Suhiir's Avatar

Suhiir Suhiir is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,001
Thanks: 159
Thanked 404 Times in 313 Posts
Suhiir is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

Helo SAMs work just fine, as long as you're stationary the TURN BEFORE opposition aircraft/helos arrive/are spotted.

If you've moved the turn prior to their arrival they rarely fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeraaa View Post
They do work and even better than they should. I shot down two fixed winged aircraft in a battle with AA missiles fired by Cobra gunships (one MiG-27 and one Su-22 IIRC).
I'm not sure about "better then they should", they seem to hit about as often as any other equilivent SAM. I can't speak for anyone else in the world but the whole reason USMC helos carry SAMs is for defense vs opposition aircraft. Shooting at other helos is kind of a bonus.
__________________
Suhiir - Wargame Junkie

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Suhiir For This Useful Post:
  #6  
Old January 16th, 2017, 02:56 PM
Wdll's Avatar

Wdll Wdll is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki->City Center->noisy neighbourhood
Posts: 1,024
Thanks: 86
Thanked 27 Times in 23 Posts
Wdll is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

Years ago I remember a mp battle where my opponent got very upset and stopped playing with me. IIRC I had an AH-64 and shot down a stealth aircraft, I don't remember which one, F-117, B2 whatever. He was so upset lol. I haven't "seen" him since.
It's very rare occurrence though, ever since drones became IMO too powerful (as in too difficult to get shot down), I stopped using gunships with AA weapons, waste of ammo.
__________________
That's it, keep dancing on the minefield!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Wdll For This Useful Post:
  #7  
Old January 17th, 2017, 12:29 AM
Imp's Avatar

Imp Imp is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Uk
Posts: 2,653
Thanks: 56
Thanked 265 Times in 229 Posts
Imp is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

Definitely works just used as air defence, move the obligatory one hex to prevent ATGMs targeting & they fire fine. As stated don't move & there are better ways to provide air defence cost wise.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Imp For This Useful Post:
  #8  
Old January 17th, 2017, 12:39 AM
FASTBOAT TOUGH's Avatar

FASTBOAT TOUGH FASTBOAT TOUGH is offline
Colonel
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
Posts: 1,546
Thanks: 233
Thanked 475 Times in 356 Posts
FASTBOAT TOUGH is on a distinguished road
Fallout Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

First no problems though actually should be more aggressive when jets are in the area. Second they are pretty much standard issue now and in the past for many countries. You must remember the primary purpose of the attack helo is to protect and provide ground support for the troops. The protect part you can attach that descriptive to mean against helos and jets. I hear the the smirks from some corners . I honestly wasn't familiar with what group performed the actual test however, I had heard (Or better, came across it quite awhile back...) Operation J-CATCH and now know it was conducted by the USA 20th Special Operations Squadron which was disbanded at some point but has been reactivated. It should be noted J-CATCH wasn't the first nor the last test conducted, however it was the first in-depth test conducted in yes January 1978. So for your further reading entertainment I give you the following...
http://www.wearethemighty.com/articl...ck-helicopters
http://usafhpa.org/20helisq/20hornet...0missions.html


From ref. 2...

"In January 1978, the 20th became involved in a program called J-CATCH. J-CATCH, for "Joint Countering Attack Helicopters", was to develop tactics to counter a growing threat from attack helicopters. Concern over the increased helicopter firepower and numbers in potential adversary nations led Tactical Air Command to outfit 20th UH-1Ns and CH-3Es as aggressors, creating a force that simulated Soviet attack helicopter capabilities and tactics. Scenarios included helicopter-to-helicopter tactics, and helicopter-to-fighter tactics. The J-CATCH helicopters were painted with special camouflage schemes and configured with Mini-TAT chain guns mounted under the fuselage, which were aimed by the co-pilot's hand controlled sight. The weapon system was loaned to the Air Force by the Canadian government. The 20th's aggressor force was known as "Red Force" and adopted a red scarf, which is still worn by the unit today. The red star on the unit patch today is a reminder of the J-CATCH mission, which successfully concluded in 1979."

and...

"The 20th remained busy with J-CATCH in 1979. They also experienced problems with the weapons system on the CH-3E. Spent brass from the guns was ejected overboard, where it entered the aircraft's slipstream. The slipstream carried the brass into the tail rotor, causing damage to tail blades. The 1st SOW developed a solution and implemented it, preventing damage to aircraft and possible loss of aircraft and lives."

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/apache/

From ref. 3 read the weapons section you'll see a standard fighter mounted AA missile is part of it's inventory and the "bold" I added...

"The Longbow Apache carries the combination of armaments chosen for the particular mission. In the close support role, the helicopter carries 16 Hellfire missiles on four four-rail launchers and four air-to-air missiles."

Unit history ref. 3 covers the mission in more depth...

http://usafhpa.org/20helisq/20HIST2.pdf
http://pavecave.com/
http://pavecave.com/history/red-scarf-history/
http://pavecave.com/history/20th-spe...icial-history/


Finally from the USA...
In Phase I/II is when the 5:1 kill ratio was established with the helos using just the onboard MG's. The lessons learned from this were applied in the latter phases but, in terms of the improved fighter tactics you'll have to agree the kill ratios really aren't that good as noted in the below ref. from the USA and it notes the fact at no time were the helos armed with any AA missiles (And you need to read the assessment of if they had been.). This is a good read and the helicopters used then would be no match against today's helo. And as the APACHE background ref. above shows, the USA learned from this document when the APACHE D was fielded in 1989.

If you want to skip the preliminaries go to PDF Pg. 25 of 61/or Pg. 17 of this document. With the advanced AA weapons, FCS/radars, IR protection, maneuverability/speed and improved defensive systems, I would think the odds would favor the helo especially against most ground attack aircraft in particular. Anyway...
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a180904.pdf

Finally a newer source but more a USA FM, in particular FM1-112 ATTACK HELICOPTER OPERATIONS for this discussion see PDF Pg. 258/or Pg. F-12 of this document.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...12/fm1-112.pdf

The ground attack variations diagrams follow the pages above. It covers multiple and paired attack ops against tanks. This kind've covers an older topic of if you will, to mimic real life ops more closely we should have to buy them in pairs then we could eliminate those single AH slots from the most advanced countries i.e. U.S., UK, Russia, Germany etc. etc. Though I suspect this might be a PITA to do, I don't know? And remember I'm a strong advocate for these in the game and before I get "trounced" by the reading audience, I normally will buy a pair and make them a part of my "core" unit as soon as possible.

Improved AIM-92/ATAS test from 2011.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyLUZuSUTEE

Good Night/Morning!

Regards,
Pat
__________________
"If something is not impossible, there must be a way of doing it." - Sir Nicholas Winton

"Ex communi periculo, fraternitas" - Words passed to me early on from a mentor and current friend of the "Silent Service".

Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; January 17th, 2017 at 01:03 AM..
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to FASTBOAT TOUGH For This Useful Post:
  #9  
Old January 17th, 2017, 07:49 AM

whdonnelly whdonnelly is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: HQ-RS, Kabul, Afghanistan
Posts: 134
Thanks: 24
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
whdonnelly is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

Thanks everyone. Not moving helicopters is something I'd never thought of, mostly because of ATGMs. But I finally had 2 stingers launch themselves today. Nice, but perhaps it will take some getting used to.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old January 17th, 2017, 01:54 PM
shahadi's Avatar

shahadi shahadi is offline
First Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: I ain't in Kansas anymore, just north of where Dorothy clicked her heels is where you'll find me.
Posts: 621
Thanks: 282
Thanked 161 Times in 128 Posts
shahadi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Helicopter mounted Stingers

I don't use them because I only have a few slots and I want to load up my helos with ATGM. My helos are to defeat armor and suppress infantry.

I use inf SAMs and other dedicated SAM units to provide AA cover.

=====
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to shahadi For This Useful Post:
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.