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  #1  
Old March 11th, 2020, 12:35 PM

Isto Isto is offline
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Default Patriot SAM poor performance

I have a hard time to believe that Patriot SAM system is really as poor as it is represented in WinSPMBT.

Even it has an EW value of 9, EW value of 8 planes almost always shoot before Patriot systems and destroy them. Shouldn't this be the case only if the plane have higher EW value than the SAM ?

Seems like it have some kind of response problems, and it respond quite poorly against planes that fly over the map too.

Why are they mass produced and used by top countries if they do not fare even against outdated planes ?


I also checked and found this on wikipedia:

"On February 15, 1991, President George H. W. Bush traveled to Raytheon's Patriot manufacturing plant in Andover, Massachusetts, during the Gulf War, he declared, the "Patriot is 41 for 42: 42 Scuds engaged, 41 intercepted!"[53] The President's claimed success rate was thus over 97% to that point in the war."

On a side note, the whole Stand off vs area sam and how Area Sam systems work in winspmbt seems biased as a whole to favour planes as well as having other problems such as the long ago mentioned and confirmed armor calculation problem. (All HE penetration is for some reason converted to 1 against flying armored targets so to be more truthful all HE explosive missiles should show HE penetration 1 in the info screen - because that is what they do in the game)


In WinspWW2 none of these kind of (unrealistic ?) problems exist.

Last edited by Isto; March 11th, 2020 at 03:10 PM..
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  #2  
Old March 11th, 2020, 11:49 PM
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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

The accuracy of the Patriot during Gulf I was HIGHLY exaggerated. It was really more like 10-25% vs the SCUDs.

VS aircraft, what it was designed for, it's undoubtedly better. But in reality SAMs rarely destroy aircraft, what the do is disrupt them so their strikes are less accurate. Unfortunately the code in WinSPMBT doesn't allow for this.
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Old March 12th, 2020, 12:03 AM

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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

Stated by the president.

Why would they not destroy the planes ?

They outrun them ?


I might have seen couple of times a text aborts mission or something, regarding stand off attacks, doesnt that mean the plane got a missile on a tail and aborts the mission ?

If that kind of missiles hits anything im sure they would even destroy buildings. Some of them are almost size of space rockets.


Internet (britannica) states that patriot system was particularly designed against missiles.

Last edited by Isto; March 12th, 2020 at 12:14 AM..
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Old March 12th, 2020, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isto View Post
Stated by the president.
I might have seen couple of times a text aborts mission or something, regarding stand off attacks, doesnt that mean the plane got a missile on a tail and aborts the mission ?
Nope.

It means the missile detonated close enough to the aircraft, and fragments did enough damage to cause the pilot to say "Screw this, another one of those I'm gonna get shot down!"
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Old March 12th, 2020, 12:16 AM

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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

Why would the missile detonate close enough ?

So they are going against direct orders, shouldnt that take them to military court on defying direct orders from their superiors ?

Can infantry do the same without being deserters ? Abandon their posts if an artillery barrage comes close enough, im sure that happens though.


Internet says patriot can travel mach 5. Dodge that with ur su-24.


So what i gather the situation you described indeed does happen in winspmbt but its extremely rare (recall at least twice or more). Usually the missile either hits or misses. The code about the damage have been broken (on purpose ?) though. This does not seem fair against patriot systems. It also seems to lack responsive properties, outdated planes flying above from couple of kilometers with no response as if that would really happen. I do have faith in the US defence system, only russians should have better equipment. If this is all part of a plan to undermine the strength of US through games.

Last edited by Isto; March 12th, 2020 at 12:57 AM..
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Old March 12th, 2020, 03:36 AM

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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isto View Post
Seems like it have some kind of response problems, and it respond quite poorly against planes that fly over the map too.
I have the same impression as you regarding patriots - not super duper weapons. In my case, I wonder if has something to do with the minimum range. If you play on smaller maps it could be that a good portion of map is within minimum range that patriot cannot fire. Particularly if the enemy flys in from your side.

I try to setup my patriot battery at the extreme corner of map to help avoid minimum range issue - but often forget.

Once patriot shoots, most likely it will be quickly seen and targeted. Just like you can quickly spot enemy missile launchers.
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Old March 12th, 2020, 04:40 AM
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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

Quote:

https://www.defenseworld.net/feature...riot_and_THAAD

The Patriot system's usage during actual deployment situations has left room for doubt over its performance. For example, after the 1991 Gulf War it was revealed that only a per centage of Iraqi SCUD missiles were actually shot down by Patriot batteries guarding Saudi Arabia and Israel. In case of the Iraqi missile strike against the American military barracks in Dhahran (Saudi Arabia) in February 1991 the failure of the Patriot intercept left to a tragedy – 27 troops were killed, about 100 wounded. In 2003, also the overall performance was better; there were also cases of failed intercepts of the outdated ballistic missiles launched by Saddam’s army in the first days of the invasion. The effectiveness of Patriot systems proved to be low despite almost ideal conditions: low-speed targets, solitary launches, absence of ECM environment and false targets.
No version of the Patriot flys at mach 5 so IDK where you found that info

We had dealt with complaints that aircraft were too vulnerable to air defences so adjustments were made and complaints about that died away. Now you're complaining the missile isn't the wunderwaffe you think it should be.

The competitors have a different POV--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amuJPXtXkOw


The first two Iraqi Su-24 I sent in a test ended up scattered in pieces in the desert. However, the ROF of 2 we have should perhaps be 4 as other SAM systems in the game with 4 missiles have 4 ROF so I have adjusted all the Patriots in the OOBs to 4 ROF
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Last edited by DRG; March 12th, 2020 at 05:27 AM..
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Old March 12th, 2020, 11:17 AM

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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

What Sam is effective then if patriot is a poor system ? I find it hard to estimate what sam systems perform better. Some older systems like buk or krub or osa seem better at responding than modern patriots or hawks in the game. Looking at the info screen patriot should be superior to those but in practice it seems not to be the case. Is thee some hidden information that are not displayed on how sam missiles react ? Like some kind of initiative value. Crew exp is usually higher on countries that use patriot too. All statistics favour them and still kub seems better. Osa seems most useful even against stand off attacks even it has a low range in comparison. I am totally confused about these. It seems to me that if a acountry does not have other area sam than patriots its not even worth taking even against outdated planes, they will still roam freely even against multiple patriots, they wont even shoot. EW 8 seems to produce immunity against patriots even patriots have higher EW value than that.

How can i predict what EW does in the game and how do anti air missiles react, is it a matter of deploy or field of vision ?

The armor code have been changed ?

Mach 5 was stated on wikipedia for MIM-104 Patriot. I guess someone could change that if its incorrect.


Still what you posted seems like propaganda to me. It contradicts strongly with the words of a president. What should we believe if not our leaders.

Last edited by Isto; March 12th, 2020 at 11:36 AM..
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Old March 12th, 2020, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

In your original post, you were firing at planes with only 1 EW level below the SAM's. EW level is a major factor, if one side has a signifigant differential - and 1 level of EW different aint so. If the SAM has maybe 3 levels of difference or more it will do much better (or conversly the other way if the plane has the higher differential).

Area SAM ae a useful thing to engage stand-off planes, less so against planes that come in over the map and helicopters. So for myself, I tend to invest in ZSU systems, or short range missiles like Rapier. SPAAA gun-based systems can also contribute to the land battle if necessary, whereas SAM (other than the Canadian ADATS) cannot.

As to the aircraft armour changes, that was changed a few releases ago. Check the release notes (found in the game guide) for details. Specifically, bullet point 26 of release 12.
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Old March 12th, 2020, 11:38 AM

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Default Re: Patriot SAM poor performance

Oh nice, thank you.

Why does kub and krub perform so good then, they have lower EW ?

Still believe on patriot.

Patriots seem to shoot EW 8 planes on map better than against stand offs. They usually respond on map, but almost never against stand off. The usual drill is that planes shoot their misile loadout against zero response and patriot shoots only after the plane enters the map to shoot with gatling. Then they almost always do respond but sometimes not.

Last edited by Isto; March 12th, 2020 at 11:46 AM..
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