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  #1051  
Old July 1st, 2020, 01:00 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

We continue by going backwards again first...
FINLAND: There is an issue here besides a minor name change to Finland's UNIT 021 LEOPARD 2A6, it should be renamed as LEOPARD 2A6FIN.

That was the easy part, it turns out the Finn's bought those tanks from the NETHERLANDS, I reference UNIT 037 LEOPARD 2NLA6. Part of the agreement was, that those tanks were to be further upgraded from the 2NLA6 standard prior to Finland taking delivery of them.

At a minimum Finland's UNIT 021 in operational capabilities should be an exact copy of the Netherland's UNIT 037.

It also appears from the next that the START should be either APR/or JUN 2016.

I quote "Colonel Rainer Peltoniemi, commander of the Häme Armoured Battalion, added that the Finnish Army had begun training with the Leopard 2A6 very quickly, starting in 2016. “It has been excellent to see how these tanks were introduced into operational use in such a short time,” Peltoniemi said,..."

This is why I favored APR over JUN, they've already operated the LEOPARD's for years and are a highly professional service.

What is unknown to me at this time is simply, were there any other combat related upgrades made to those tanks besides what's listed (NON-STARTERS) in the "teaser" article from JANE's?

I'll look further into this but, I stand by the matching/merging of those units as essentially direct copies at this time.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...rd-2a6fin-mbts

Regards,
Pat
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  #1052  
Old July 3rd, 2020, 11:08 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Tried to get this out early this morning but, exprienced log-in issues.

My focus is simply to close the loop concerning the LEOPARD 2A6FIN. The previous/last post is an important part of this process.

I can say without a doubt in my mind that, operationally speaking, the Dutch LEOPARD 2NLA6 and the Finnish LEOPARD 2A6FIN are the same tanks. So a direct copy will work in this case into Finland's OOB. Units noted in my last.

Several other items were bought along with the tanks to include the trainers (Which were the only item to be later upgraded by THALES. The trainers will be completely made current. The advantage for the Finnish Army is should they decide to further upgrade these tanks in the future, the crews will be able to train on the new systems before they are put into the tanks.), Ammo and Engineer tanks.

Also in the search for any further upgrades to the LEOPARD 2A6FIN, the only other item that came up was that Finland will be buying additional ammo for these tanks from Israel during this and next year. I did not save that article as again I don't think there's that much difference between the ammo made by Elbit Land Systems (Formally IMI.) and Rheinmetall of Germany where the Dutch bought theirs from. But most of this buy is for HE 120mm tank ammo.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...rd-2a6fin-mbts
(Bottom para with the upgrades made, again non-game issues.)

But a two week earlier ref brings up the next issue, this concerning UNIT 024 LEOPARD A24S it would appear, well let me do it this way first from the next ref...
"The Leopard 2A6s will replace the Finnish Army’s Leopard 2A4s as the main battle tank of the Finnish Army. The Leopard 2A4s have been moved into reserve or training units following the delivery of Leopard 2A6s, with the exception of 12 that were converted into combat engineering and bridging vehicles, and will remain in frontline service. The Finnish Army will retain them (2A4s-mine) for driver training and as a source of spare parts for the Leopard 2A6s." So...

OP#1: If we accept the following from above, "The Leopard 2A6s will replace the Finnish Army’s Leopard 2A4s as the main battle tank of the Finnish Army." AND assuming the last batch (OCT. 2019.) became operational by JAN. 2020 then I recommend UNIT 024 LEOPARD 2A4S END date be changed to JAN. 2020 vice DEC. 2025.

OP#2: But if we go with the next sentence from above, "The Leopard 2A4s have been moved into reserve or training units following the delivery of Leopard 2A6s (Which delivery?-Mine), with the exception of 12 that were converted into combat engineering and bridging vehicles, and will remain in frontline service." As I go on in the below para, it's anyone's guess.

Given the ambiguity of those two statements, I rather would want to go with OP#1 and be "SAFER THEN SORRIER", I feel it's the best option as I can't find anything to support the same for an earlier date for withdrawal of the Finnish LEOPARD 2A4S from frontline service. I can even see and support NLT JUN. 2020 as well if you think it best. Certainly the LEOPARD 2A6FIN (Last batch received last OCT. 2019.) would've been fully integrated into the Finnish Army by last month and there haven't been any articles to the contrary, I came across in my search on both these tanks.
https://www.overtdefense.com/2019/10...a6s-delivered/

An early article concerning the first delivery. You'll notice the information has stayed consistent from May 2015 through essentially NOV. 2019.
https://world-defense.com/threads/fi...herlands.2134/


Now I'm off to bed, before someone thinks, it's with my head for not going to bed sooner!?!

Almost forgot we'll need another LEOPARD 2A6FIN with HE ammo as they got that from the Dutch and the buy from Elbit Land Systems will primarily consist of HE ammo as also.

Regards,
Pat
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  #1053  
Old July 4th, 2020, 12:42 PM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I've stated many times I like to see equipment doing things vice sitting looking like a "static" display. With that in mind and from Finnish source's, I have 4 of the LEOPARD 2A6FIN and 1 of the LEOPARD 2A4FS. if there is a desire.

TO BE CORRECTED EVENTUALLY


Well it's TGIF for me, the last couple of days were rough with a our wonderful humidity and temps heat index 102 - 112 for the last 2 weeks, blah!!! (I wish!)

Well something didn't quite go right I'll have to fix this later.

Regards,
Pat
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  #1054  
Old July 5th, 2020, 10:38 PM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Well first THANK YOU to Don for taking care of the technical glitch associated with the picture of the last post!!

So as I was conducting my search for more "action packed" pictures of the Finnish LEOPARD 2A4/2A6FIN (Of which I found some good ones of. ), won't you know I would come across some very interesting news concerning their LEOPARD 2A4. I was so very happy I did based on my last posts.

Though I did leave an out of JUN 2020 END, I really didn't think it necessary until the below two refs from Feb/Mar 2020 where the "star" of the show (NATO Exercise Cold Response 2020.) for Finland was...yes the LEOPARD 2A4. Anyone for DEC 2020!?!

I'm at a momentary loss for a "Simile" at the moment after that last! (Sorta.)

Anyway...
https://www.milmag.eu/news/view?news_id=3491
https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/fin...-response-2020
(COVID-19 strikes in a separate exercise!?!)

UKRAINE:
I think I'll "kick the tires" with this Ref, I like what my "snoopy around" is showing so far. It offers a really good look at the upgraded T-80BV tanks I think we just got the last patch.
https://www.milmag.eu/news/view?news_id=3663

Regards,
Pat
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  #1055  
Old July 6th, 2020, 02:11 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I'm going to skip ahead a bit because of the subject matter of one of the refs below. Quite frankly I'm surprised somewhat that nobody hasn't already "jumped" on this story and it's a good thing because I'd be forced to take "the wind out of your sails" which is never fun for me.

I will be focused on ABRAMS on this post. First off what's being done to them to stave off obsolesce issues and where we're at, from 5/20...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...ce_issues.html

We're still handing out ABRAMS M1A2 SEP V2 from 8/19...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/augu...onversion.html

The rest generally revolve around the ABRAMS M1A2 SEP 3/M1A2C...
Strike Shield APS anyone, anyone? From 12/19...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/dece...u.s._army.html

Cooling down the the TI from 5/20...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/may_...ams_tanks.html

First Brigade to get M1A2C SOoooNn from 5/19...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/may_...ered_soon.html

Don't get to excited because a year later...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/may_...tle_tanks.html

Refer back to Ref.1 if you have any questions first please on the last item.

A little history. While tracking the ABRAMS SEP V2 for submission, I had to wait for sometime because the USA equipped around 8 Brigades before that tank reached FOC. That's not to say the M1A2C won't be fast tracked (Though the record already shows it hasn't.) and brought to FOC sooner. However I'm feeling much more comfortable about the revised START Date I submitted for the last Patch based on these Refs as submitted.

The following are for GP and of minor (Or more?) interest...

The longest running and comprehensive Ref on ABRAMS (Among many others.)
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...updated-02834/

Well the USA buys foreign, specifically from the UKRAINE again, in 2003 we bought over a year 4 T-80UD tanks. So in 3/18 were getting ready to buy a OPLOT-M. If you read the article carefully, you'll understand the future value to the UKRAINE concerning potential advances in their armor development.
https://world-defense.com/threads/us...tle-tank.5352/

This in no way unusual I've personally seen what I swore was a MERKAVA being transported up I-26 West about 45 minutes East of Columbia, S.C. about 4-5yrs ago.

And don't think the Russians didn't take an interest in the "diluted" IRAQI M1A1 tanks we sold them.

And so it goes round and round again.

Regards,
Pat
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  #1056  
Old July 7th, 2020, 01:19 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

The reason Don took down the tank picture in Post 1053 was because if you went to "save as" it linked back directly to my PC's saved "Picture" file. Not good!

Never had a problem attaching pictures to my posts before 2 July 2020 when MS determined we're all to have EDGE Chromium and their hearing about it in their forum pages. So these are from my IMGUR account.

What I'm first posting are all from Finnish sources. I noted we would need probably 2 LEOPARD 2A6FIN units in the OOB and now I see the wisdom of doing the same for the current LEOPARD 2A4AS in the OOB as well. 1 each in an anti-tank role and 1 each in a general purpose role as I believe the current UNIT 021 LEOPARD 2A4AS is modeled with 10 HE rounds. This makes sense in that the primary mission of their tanks is to take out the other guys tanks. But as noted in my last Finnish post, they've made a huge buy in primarily HE 120mm Ammo from ELBIT Land Systems (Again formally IMI.)

The first two are LEOPARD 2A4s with their Winter Camo...

Primary LEOPARD 2A4 pictures for submission...


My preference in order of photos is 5, 4 and 2.

Now for what I expect will be for the 2 LEOPARD 2A6FIN tank submission...


My preference in order of photos is 2nd Row left, and really about a tie for the Top photo or 2nd Row Right.

And that's that and back to the "grind" later this afternoon.

Have a good night, it's only 0130 CINCLANTHOME will wonder if I'm feeling alright going to bed so soon!?!

Hope this was of some use.

Regards,
Pat
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  #1057  
Old August 1st, 2020, 02:53 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

This next wasn't what I planned on posting on, however, in many ways this is potentially of more significance. Besides the French/German MGCS (Which like ARMATA we probably won't see but, has caused the "stir" with the issue below.) the significance falls in the potential of us possibly seeing the 130mm/L51 on an existing platforms before games end.

France: LeClerc XLR

Germany: LEOPARD 2A6 and up (Should it happen, more likely the 2A7)

Japan: TYPE 90

S. Korea: K2

Turkey: ALTAY (Won't happen since they started buying Russian
"frontline" equipment. This has already killed their F-35 deal.)

USA: ABRAMS M1A1 (I should think the M1A2 but, the article didn't mention it.)

UK: CHALLENGER 2 LEP (Which I feel has the best shot of getting it within the games time horizon. The upgrade as I understand it offers the 130mm/L51 as an option.)

I can't find the video the next points to, but note they had updated this article. It should look familiar to you and it was the tank I just posted last. However other refs say it's a modified LEO hull.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...mm_cannon.html

The next is from last year it covers the issues of up-gunning tanks, logistics considerations and more. You would do yourself a dis-service by not taking a look at it concerning this topic, in my opinion.
The "More To Read" section has a couple of really good articles you will find "somewhat" related to this which I'll "pull out" concerning the T-14 ARMATA.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ew-tank-design

The situation really hasn't changed in the last two years, in fact the economics have gotten worse.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...esigns-instead

The article is relevant because Russia did follow through since the above by producing the T-72B3/B4, T-80BVM, T-90MS (Export) and T-90M the last benefitted the most from the ARMATA development I think we did a good job of replicating in the game.

It's late and it's my "TGIF" today, so good what ever...!!

Regards,
Pat
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  #1058  
Old August 2nd, 2020, 09:47 PM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

I checked the thread and the conversation had already started back on 24 March 2020 and Suhiir gave a good argument why the USMC could get away with not having them due to support from attack helos and artillery. She unfortunately doesn't have a "crystal ball" and I'm pretty she's not a "witch" (You don't float on water do you!?! And be careful I did watch that "documentary" by MP concerning "The Holy Grail" therefore if you (If you were a witch.) float like wood and wood burns what you do with a witch? You burn it!!! Now back to our normal programming.) so therefore could foresee that's not going to be the case.

I will start from the beginning and pull a couple of quotes from each as needed.

24 March 2020:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...e-corps-tanks/

This article is worth your time to read as you'll get some answers to the question, WHY?
"The Marines are eliminating all four tank battalions, including three active duty and one reserve battalion equivalent.

21 July 2020:
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...attalions.html


"All of 4th Tanks' six companies, along with its battalion headquarters, are expected to deactivate by the end of 2021, Hollenbeck said." (Maj. Roger Hollenbeck, a spokesman for Marine Forces Reserve.)

29 July 2020 0745:
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ision_lot.html


"from Marine Corps Combat Development Command: “The Marine Corps is redesigning the 2030 force for naval expeditionary warfare in actively contested spaces, fully aligning the service with the direction of the" National Defense Strategy, it said. To prepare itself for naval expeditionary warfare in contested areas and adapt its means to Chinese or Russian units, the Marine Corps has started to implement its plans to get rid of law enforcement battalions, tank battalions and associated military occupational specialties, and all bridging companies by 2030, according to the announcement that was released March 23. Additionally, the service intends to reduce the number of infantry battalions from 24 to 21; artillery cannon batteries from 21 to 5; amphibious vehicle companies from 6 to 4; and cut tiltrotor (MV-22 Osprey), attack and heavy lift squadrons. The blueprint of the plan calls for a total force reduction of approximately 12,000 personnel over a 10-year period, a decline of slightly less than 7 percent relative to the current structure."

"The Marine Corps plans to deactivate Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 264; Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 462; Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron 469; Marine Wing Support Groups 27 and 37; 8th Marine Regiment Headquarters Company; and 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines. It also intends to realign 1st Battalion, 8th Marines to 2nd Marines, and 2nd Battalion, 8th Marines to 6th Marines, while deactivating and relocating Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron 367 to Camp Pendleton, California. The Corps is canceling the activation of 5th Battalion, 10th Marines, but its assigned batteries will realign under the existing 10th Marine Regiment structure. The service expects to reduce the number of F-35B and F-35C primary aircraft authorized per squadron from 16 to 10, the announcement said."

You take away the training units in the beginning, the rest is sure to follow.

01 August 2020:
https://militaryleak.com/2020/08/01/...a1-tank-units/


"...2nd Tank Battalion left Camp Lejeune, N.C., for the last time this week as part of the service’s sweeping modernization plan that envisions a more agile force..."

"Tank units on the East and West coasts shuttered this month and began hauling their armor to military depots."

West Coast:
"And the service isn’t dallying. Early this month, the 1st Tank Battalion at Twentynine Palms, Calif., said goodbye to its tanks. Weeks later, Alpha Company, 4th Tank Battalion cased its colors down the road at Camp Pendleton, the first of the Marine Corps Reserve battalion’s six companies expected to do so by the end of 2021. Last week, some 200 West Coast-based Abrams tanks, M-88 Recovery Vehicles and other equipment began moving through the Corps’ logistics base in Barstow, Calif., enroute to Army depots in California and Alabama. Hundreds of Marines in tank units will be able to change specialties or transfer into the Army to continue serving as tankers, and those with at least 15 years of service may apply for early retirement."

East Coast:
On the East Coast, 2nd Tank Battalion’s Charlie Company cased its colors last Friday, where company commander Capt. John Fergerson recalled the role its tanks played in the second battle for Fallujah in Iraq in 2004. The decision to do away with tanks does not diminish their value in past conflicts, the service’s top officials have said. They just won’t be a part of the Corps’ future. The tank units aren’t the only ones packing up. Three combat logistics units in California, North Carolina and Japan also shut down this summer, along with an engineer support battalion and Marine wing support group, both based in California.

The 4th Battalion will be the last Armor Unit to case their colors, which Company will have that "honor" to be last has not been announced that I'm aware.

At the rate this is accelerating, we have an End Date of DEC 2021 for all USMC Armor based on numerous reliable web sources.

Putting all the "Ouh Ra Ra" stuff aside and knowing how my Dad felt about his time in Armor, I won't begrudge any one of those folks if they took the Army offer, not one bit.

There's nothing to read into this it's pretty cut and dry and anyone who's served in the U.S. Military knows how fast things can move when the upper C of C is motivated and the CORPS is obviously motivated about Plan 2030.

The 1st refs offers the reasons logic for why but, as quoted from the
interview, in the same breath along with China, mentions Russia.

Russia will unlikely be an issue to U.S. interests in Asia or the Pacific. However the Baltic and North Sea would be contested and the CORPS would play a major role in "holding the line" especially as with everything else that happened this week, POTUS is talking about pulling around 12K troops out of Germany and bringing about 1/2 them back home and reassign the rest to diffrent European countries.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/y...l-regrettable/

There is a thought process by the "experts" that the Army can provide the Armor, sure if we have some there in Europe (And remember we just put some back a few years ago after taking them home as well.)

I support the thoughts of some that the CORPS should at least keep the 4th Reserve Battalion at full strength and move it to the East Coast so it's available if needed, to go to Europe.

Things can change as we're in a Presidential election cycle, if not, then we'll know the outcome before the next Patch.

But again, as it stands now, CORPS Armor final flag will be cased by DEC 2021.
https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Di...-usmc-to-army/


I thought some might want to see what the CORPS has to say.

Regards,
Pat
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  #1059  
Old August 3rd, 2020, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: MBT's

By deactivating the reserve battalion last the Corps save itself a LOT of money on maintenance and consumables because they're only in use once a month (for the most part) but maintains the ability to field armor if needed.

There are significant problems with maintaining such a force structure in the long run tho. Around half of USMC reservists are prior active duty and when the active tanks go away so does that pool of already trained/experiences manpower. Then there's the issue of the elimination of bridging units, and the fact that reserve units rarely get to actually train in amphibious operations.

So for all intents and purposes once the last active duty tank battalion is deactivated so is USMC armor. So the question is ... When is the last active duty tank unit due to be deactivated?
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Old August 4th, 2020, 01:21 AM
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Fallout Re: MBT's

Concerning Active Tank Battalions, and based on what the refs have shown us thus far, it's taken the CORPS 4 months to deactivate the 1st Marine Tank Battalion and the 2nd MTB had one of it's four companies deactivated.

I feel at this pace and allowing for slight delays at the Army Depots to accept (The "yard" might be full to some degree because of the USA ABRAMs that are awaiting modernization to the M1A2C (SEP 3) standard.) anymore tanks.

My instinct is telling me, March 2021 for active duty deactivation, give or take a month. Otherwise no official date has been set.

I still think we should use the given date. It strikes me odd that it appears they're in a hurry to deactivate the "active" units but then "drag their feet" on the reserve component another year.

Again there is discussion within the CORPS and outside of it to save the 4th Tank Battalion.

I'd prefer the "wait and see attitude" and just simply make one change instead of two or more in the game.

And there's still the potential things could change after the November elections as well.

I know it's still going to happen, until I submit my last Patch Submission, but I'm just really tired of "chasing dates" and last years ABRAMS rework is coming to mind right now. So on this one my heads really at what I expressed in the previous two sentences above.

Regards,
Pat
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