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  #1  
Old September 9th, 2006, 11:56 AM
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Default 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

After a look through the ANZAC OOB I can only find a 2pdr AA-Gun, Class Flak, an Inf AAMG, class Infantry AAMG and a M15 & 16, class SP AA.

So first off what is a 2 Pdr AA Gun???

How about at least a Bofors 40 mm gun somewhere?
We were even making them as well as the 20mm Oerlikon.

This is not to forget the 3.7 AA Gun which was also very much in some of the combat areas and in one case actually used as an indirect fire piece with 25 pdr fuses in the 3.7 round.

This OOB seems to have a few glitches in it..
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  #2  
Old September 9th, 2006, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

A "2 Pdr AA Gun" is a 40mm AA .

OK?

And yes, the 20mm Oerlikon was made and used by Australians. It was aboard nearly every ship in that navy. If you look real close at the OOB you'll see that the 20mm Oerlikon (weapon slot 147) is in fact already used by six units in that OOB. As well the 20mm Polsten AA, which is virtually the same gun is used in the Buffalo IV amphib.
Now. you PROVE to me that it was used in a ground mount by the army and I'll put it into the OOB as such.



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  #3  
Old September 10th, 2006, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

Quote:
DRG said:
A "2 Pdr AA Gun" is a 40mm AA .

OK?

And yes, the 20mm Oerlikon was made and used by Australians. It was aboard nearly every ship in that navy. If you look real close at the OOB you'll see that the 20mm Oerlikon (weapon slot 147) is in fact already used by six units in that OOB. As well the 20mm Polsten AA, which is virtually the same gun is used in the Buffalo IV amphib.
Now. you PROVE to me that it was used in a ground mount by the army and I'll put it into the OOB as such.



Don
Don I did not imply that the Oerlikon was ground mounted.

With respect to the 2 Pounder AA gun why this instead of say a Bofors 40 mm AA gun?

Also waht was/is the 1.5 Pounder AA Gun?
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Old September 10th, 2006, 01:21 PM

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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

Source:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/37-40mm.htm

This bit about the 2pndr AA and 1.5pndr:

The Interwar Years

Between the wars the need was recognised to equip warships with automatic cannon in response to the growing threat of attack by aircraft. The Navy not surprisingly selected the water-cooled 2 PR already available and fitted it in a variety of mountings, from single manually-operated versions weighing around 1½ tons to the huge 20-ton eight-barrelled 'Chicago Pianos' fitted to various major warships in the late 1930s. The first developed was the eight-barrel mounting, for fitting to capital ships. The four-barrel followed, mainly for cruisers and destroyers. Single barrel mountings became popular later, particularly for fitting to Oerlikon mountings to increase firepower for dealing with kamikaze attacks.

The gun originally fired a shell weighing 0.9 kg (two pounds) at a muzzle velocity of about 610 m/s but just before the war the disadvantage of such a low velocity was recognised and a high-velocity loading, firing a 0.77 kg shell at a still modest 730 m/s, was introduced. At about the same time the rate of fire was increased form 90 to 115 rpm. The weapon was sturdy but prone to jamming for a variety of reasons and needed a well-trained crew to get the best from it. These problems together with the relatively low performance led to its gradual replacement as the much superior Bofors gun became available, although it was still widely used at the end of the war and remained in service for some years thereafter.

In the 1930s a small number of 2 PR was acquired by the British Army as a stop-gap AA weapon (in a twin-barrel fixed mounting) before the Bofors gun was adopted, but these were eventually given to the Navy.

The 1½ PR COW gun was the other survivor of WW1, being tried in a variety of aircraft, mostly flying boats but also fighters. However, it never really progressed beyond experimental status and the survivors ended their days as airfield defence guns in WW2. Its significance lies primarily in the fact that it was used as the basis for the design of the Vickers 40mm Class S described below, following Vickers' acquisition of the Coventry Ordnance Works.
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Old September 10th, 2006, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

Quote:
TDR said:
Don I did not imply that the Oerlikon was ground mounted.

Oh I see, So you didn't research the OOB and see if the Oerlikon was available or not before complaining we should include it then did you? Since you were compaining about this gun being missing from the flak class what else was I to assume? Oerlikon WERE used by a few other nations in ground mounts...........so not Australia then??


Quote:
TDR said:
With respect to the 2 Pounder AA gun why this instead of say a Bofors 40 mm AA gun?
Because SOMEBODY who we trusted with the OOB( we can guess but we don't really know for sure...) decided that that was a "more accurate" description of the name of the gun . Obviously you think it should be Bofors. Personally, I think "Bofors" is more widely accepted but "2 Pounder AA" is also an accurate name but I changed it to read 40mm Bofors AA yesterday.

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  #6  
Old September 10th, 2006, 03:18 PM
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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

Quote:
TDR said:
After a look through the ANZAC OOB I can only find a 2pdr AA-Gun, Class Flak, an Inf AAMG, class Infantry AAMG and a M15 & 16, class SP AA.
And next time you want to look through the OOB's for weapons and want to do it right open up MOBHack, click on "Database Check Utilities" then press the "Weapons by class" button and if you then press 004 "Flak-AA capable" you will find all the weapons that can fire at aircraft and you would have found all of these......

010 - 20mm Polsten AA
011 - 37mm M1 AA-Gun
013 - 1.5 pdr AA-Gun
017 - 2 pdr AA-Gun
115 - Quad Besa AAMG
135 - Vickers 'K' (2)
139 - 30 cal AAMG
140 - 50 cal M2 AAMG
141 - 50 cal (2) AAMG
147 - 20mm Oerlikon
148 - .303 Bren AAMG
215 - 50cal Quad AAMG

which is considerably more than the "I can only find" 4 you mentioned.

Don
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Old September 11th, 2006, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

In my original post I was referring to units not weapons.
Also out of that list of weapons all bar Weapon #013 - 1.5 pdr AA-Gun and #017 - 2 pdr AA-Gun are mounted on some form of self propelled vehicle, track wheeled or boat.

With respect to Units the only direct anti aircraft artillery pieces are:
Unit #205 - Static AA Gun from 30 to 49 with 3in Vickers AA
Unit #367 - 1.5pdr Empl from 30 to 49 with 1.5 pdr AA-Gun
Unit #64 - 2pdr AA-Gun from 30 to 49 with 2 pdr AA-Gun
Unit #265 - Inf AAMG from 30 to 49 with .303 Bren AAMG

Renaming the 2 Pounder Anti-Aircraft Gun as a ‘40mm Bofors AA’ implies it has the characteristics of such a weapon. The 2 Pounder Anti-Aircraft does not according to the weapons values in the Weapon table.

By 1942 there were many 3.7 inch heavy AA emplacements and Bofors 40mm AA guns though out Australia and PNG. Yet the Unit table would suggest otherwise.

The Bofors 40mm was being operated by the 4th Australian Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment in Syria in June 1942 and Egypt August 42.
In 1941 the 2nd Australian Heavy Anti-Aircraft Regiment was operating 3.7 inch Anti-Aircraft guns in Syria.

It has been indicated that the 2 and 1.5 Pounder Anti-Aircraft guns were somewhat obsolete by the start of WWII but they appear to have run the full course with no replacements or additions in this particular OOB.

As we appear to have different points of view on this it seems the simplest to leave this OOB collectively as it stands.
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  #8  
Old September 11th, 2006, 10:51 AM
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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

Note I said I changed this a couple of days ago. I also changed the weapon and added the correct weapon stats in the master OOB. The "2 pdr AA" stays with the naval units and the ground based mount is now named back to being "40mm Bofors AA" and the weapon it uses is the correct Bofors stats. Also note the photo of that weapon is the stock "Bofors" photo. Back when these weapons were renamed in the commonwealth OOB's it was done overzealously and the corrections will be in the next release.

Also, we do not include heavy AA guns in this game. This has been discussed numerous times on this and other forums. However, I will look into including this gun as a ground mount if indeed it was used in a ground role by the Australians. If it was used strictly as an AA gun it will not be added

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  #9  
Old September 11th, 2006, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

Don, thany you for this.
I only made reference to the 3.7 inch Anti Aircraft gun as it would be an alternate to the ‘3in Vickers AA’ in Unit #205 Static AA Gun.
I was not advocating Heavy Anti Aircraft gun use in the game.

The only reference I have to the 3.7 Inch being used as a ground based weapon was at Milne Bay, August 1942. Here the guns were used in an indirect fire role as the 25 pounders did not have the range and could not be moved. The 3.7 inch shells were fitted with the 25 pounder shell’s fuses.
Ref:
http://gunnersnet.com/gnrs0046.html
This is the simplest reference to this but I do have others as well as a copy of the original ‘test results’ to say this fuse adaptation worked.

At present I don’t have any other reference to this gun being used in a similar role, simply as I have not been looking for such references. This does not say it did not occur. If I happen to find any I will pass it along.
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  #10  
Old September 11th, 2006, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: 2 Pounder AA GUN ???????

Plenty of references, if you look up the artillery in XIV Army in Burma. 3.7 AA was regularly used as arty there - if the terrain was flat enough for the battery to engage (ultra flat trajectory meant no real ability to engage any targets in any sort of defilade). Esp later on in the war, when there was no real air defence task.

However - not really worth putting in the game, a troop of 25 pounders does the trick as 3.7 in ground pounding mode.

Cheers
Andy
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