EU v NATO or instead of NATO

[IronDuke99]

Okay, so I hope I this will not get me banned, but I am going to follow the advice I was given by Andy/MOBHACK and discuss this here from a game/military point of view. Please bear in mind that as Clausewitz said "war is the continuation of politics by other means", so you cannot totally segregate them...

As everyone probably knows France has been a very lukewarm NATO member for a very long time. Now some people within the European Union want it to become a State. States have to have military forces. Outside of that idea I cannot for the life of me see why there should be Anglo-French or any other 'EU' military force, given that we have Nato for joint and allied operations that are important to Western Europe, etc, and that NATO gives the huge added strength of the US (and also Canada).

In general terms the British military, unlike a few British political types, do not regard unilateral Anglo-French cooperation all that warmly. In particular there is a very deep seated dislike, that goes to the very highest ranks, of putting British forces under French Command. After all a two battalion Anglo-French force with a squadron of Tanks is something that UK, or France, could easily do on their own, and it would almost certainly work better than a joint force with all the problems of lingo, etc.

Now in June Britain is having a referendum to decide to stay in or leave the EU (it is about 50%/50% at the moment although the evidence is that leaving is much more popular - 85%/15%- with the military and former military).

So here is my idea for two scenarios: Firstly the EU goes full ahead for a EU military, the US accelerates its move of the centre of gravity of its forces from Europe to the Pacific, and so the EU faces the Russians basically minus the US (and Canada) ie, at about, at best, 25% of current NATO forces.

The other scenario would be UK leaves the EU, but the EU continues to push the Russians, as it has been doing for some time and a highly alarmed USA, UK and, perhaps, Canada decide this dangerous nonsense must stop and so France, Germany and whatever other EU nations they can browbeat into foolishly supporting them face US and UK forces, possibly supported by Canada. Meanwhile off on the sidelines Russia, and indeed China, look on with great interest.

I hope this has given scenario designers some totally fresh ideas for campaigns.

[scorpio_rocks]

Originally Posted by IronDuke99

Now some people within the European Union want it to become a State. States have to have military forces.

I think you may be confusing state/nation, soverign state, federation of states... Some folk want Europe to become a Federation.

Many states dont have any military force (eg Iceland, Costa Rica, Mauritious, individual US states, etc) and some Federations keep the constituent states' militaries.

Originally Posted by IronDuke99

Firstly the EU goes full ahead for a EU military, the US accelerates its move of the centre of gravity of its forces from Europe to the Pacific, and so the EU faces the Russians basically minus the US (and Canada) ie, at about, at best, 25% of current NATO forces.

The other scenario would be UK leaves the EU, but the EU continues to push the Russians, as it has been doing for some time and a highly alarmed USA, UK and, perhaps, Canada decide this dangerous nonsense must stop and so France, Germany and whatever other EU nations they can browbeat into foolishly supporting them face US and UK forces, possibly supported by Canada. Meanwhile off on the sidelines Russia, and indeed China, look on with great interest.

The first scenario is covered by any "what if" Russia Vs anybody but the USA...
The second would never happen! No one would go to war with ALLIES because they may not have the same political view or way of dealing with the percieved threat of Russia!

[IronDuke99]

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks

I think you may be confusing state/nation, soverign state, federation of states... Some folk want Europe to become a Federation.

With respect I think you are underestimating what "some folk" within the EU actually want.

Cannot say I remember any even very slightly warm feelings for France in my days in the British Army, although French girls was a different story...

[cbreedon]

What about some sort of EU invasion of Britain to keep her in the fold?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by cbreedon

What about some sort of EU invasion of Britain to keep her in the fold?

alien space bats scenario. By all means, write such a campaign as a "what if", but it is fantasy cloud-cuckoo land.

What you could pose the fantasy as is as a joint training exercise using Miles laser training gear. That sort of thing happens regularly, even in my battalion the 2 "English" (Liverpool Scottish, London Scottish) coys often played as the "enemy" on exercise against the rest of 1/51 Highland. So casualties aren't real - just sent off by the umpires.

[Firestorm]

Originally Posted by cbreedon

What about some sort of EU invasion of Britain to keep her in the fold?

There were several scenarios from Jane's Fighters Anthology where something like this actually happened. Defending the Kingdom, IIRC.

[cbreedon]

Now you're thinking Andy.

The English army invading Scotland to keep it a part of the UK. We would need an icon Nicola Sturgeon with a painted blue face though :-)

[Suhiir]

I played with the 1/52nd and cadets from Sandhurst when I was over there in the mid 70's, I "killed" (and was killed by) evil British Ba'astads more then once!

Story Time !

It seems most Brit medics at the time were conscious objectors. So when the hill were defending against Sandhurst was being over-run our US Navy Corpsman ("Tiny" ... Nam vet with the Congressional) the last man standing had an M-60 in one hand and a radio in the other calling in artillery on top our own position I swear I saw a couple Brit Sgt Majors orgasm.

[Suhiir]

I can see a need for joint task forces within the EU. The various civil wars/genocides in the former Yugoslavia come to mind. The US tried to stay out of it (a classic case of let Europe handle it's own problems) but the EU as a whole couldn't decide what to do ... thus did nothing. If there had been a joint task force involving some of the EU nations at the time it's possible those nations may have intervened.

((Of course any non-historical action(s) taken by anyone are purely hypothetical.))