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  #21  
Old December 30th, 2006, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

The problem with getting the AI to design ships is that the AI will use more than one needed component or won't use the components that are being required.

The AI will always use the largest ship in the list, usually the top one, as it gains access to that design size.

Also the AI use of components will differ dramatically over the course of low to high tech game.

It is as if the AI wants to be stupid and revels in it.
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  #22  
Old December 31st, 2006, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

Quote:
PvK said:
Oh, there are a few players still enjoying it.
Yep.

Quote:
Arralen, there is also AIC (AI Campaigns) mod, which was based on a 2.x version of Proportions but with major changes and adjustments including heavy AI "cheats" which can be quite challenging and interesting to play against.

Don't get me wrong, AIC is a good mod, but there may be areas that you could dislike (well, I do). E.g you research for mines and then you notice that it was (almost) useless because the AI ship hulls have the ability to sweep them. Or you spend millions of RPs for the talisman and then you notice that the human type of the RT is only a better attack sensor.
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  #23  
Old December 31st, 2006, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

Even the Proportions 2.x AI can at least deploy ships of multiple sizes, and usually do a reasonable job of designing them and so on. The Xi Chung is the AI I tweaked the most in Proportions 2.x. The AI's Oleg made for 2.x are also good (search for "Oleg's AI pack adds three new empires (Size: 1.6 MB)." on my Proportions web page, and JLS also did a good job tweaking the Abbidon (and maybe some others). However, because they don't cheat, and I think also because Proportions requires more thinking and provides more opportunities to do creative and tricky things (as well as some more opportunities to get messed up, etc.), the AI will always be weaker than an experienced human player, and a human will need to limit himself and/or give the AI some kind of advantages in order to have a challenging game.

If I had the time and this was the project I was most interested in, then I would spend the time to mod a decent AI and make some interesting AI cheat options. I know it can be done.

The best way I found was to start a game with the AI race I was tweaking, and watch what it did each turn, then make adjustments to the research, build, design and strategy files to make the AI do things, re-load with the AI and make sure they did them, then look for more things to tweak, etc. I actually found it very fun to do (it's like playing the game using the AI files as your UI) and rewarding once it was done, but it also took forever and showed many weaknesses and frustrating issues with the AI. For that much time investment, I have other projects I'd rather devote the time to.

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  #24  
Old January 1st, 2007, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

...
The requested URL /pvk/proportions/OlegsProportionsAIs.zip was not found on this server.
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  #25  
Old January 2nd, 2007, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

Quote:
Atrocities said:
Its hard to want to work on a mod for a game that no longer is really being valued by the players. Its like going to a party that no one shows up to any more.
I'm still VERY much into the game, and will be into SEIV for quite some time to come.
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  #26  
Old January 3rd, 2007, 07:02 PM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

Quote:
Arralen said:
...
The requested URL /pvk/proportions/OlegsProportionsAIs.zip was not found on this server.
Sorry Arralen! It seems to have vanished during a web site update. I'm hunting for it... if I don't find it, I'll reassemble it.

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  #27  
Old January 3rd, 2007, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

I have played a bit of Proportions Pvk and now that have Se5 I'm playing it

the only thing that is really wrong with it is this

Name := Basic Life Support
Description := Mechanical means to generate a livable atmosphere on a starship. This system is not built for compactness, or to withstand battle damage, but is less difficult to manufacture.
Pic Num := 5
Tonnage Space Taken := 15
Tonnage Structure := 1
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 3
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Tech Area Req 2 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 2 := 4
Tech Area Req 3 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 4
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Ship Life Support
Ability 1 Descr := Contains life support.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


and a few other things like the shields in the wrong order in the list but thats ok.
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  #28  
Old January 4th, 2007, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

Quote:
PvK said:
Ok, there is a beta version of 3.0.6 posted here:
...
The probes should just be lame drones available on turn 1 even in a Low Starting Tech game.
Probes? Which probes?
Started with low tech and medium costs, and probes are nowhere to be seen??
Actually, I can't even see any drone tech at all ...

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  #29  
Old January 4th, 2007, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

Quote:
Arralen said:
Quote:
PvK said:
Ok, there is a beta version of 3.0.6 posted here:
...
The probes should just be lame drones available on turn 1 even in a Low Starting Tech game.
Probes? Which probes?
Started with low tech and medium costs, and probes are nowhere to be seen??
Actually, I can't even see any drone tech at all ...


Probes are supposed to be basic drones available from turn 1. Drones are supposed to require research...
I must have broken them before I posted it then. As I wrote, it needed testing... sigh. Thanks Arralen, I'll investigate...

PvK
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  #30  
Old January 4th, 2007, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3

Quote:
ironmanbc said:
I have played a bit of Proportions Pvk and now that have Se5 I'm playing it

the only thing that is really wrong with it is this

Name := Basic Life Support
Description := Mechanical means to generate a livable atmosphere on a starship. This system is not built for compactness, or to withstand battle damage, but is less difficult to manufacture.
Pic Num := 5
Tonnage Space Taken := 15
Tonnage Structure := 1
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 100
Cost Radioactives := 0
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Vehicle Control
Family := 3
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Tech Area Req 2 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 2 := 4
Tech Area Req 3 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 3 := 4
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Ship Life Support
Ability 1 Descr := Contains life support.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None


and a few other things like the shields in the wrong order in the list but thats ok.
Thanks ironmanbc. All feedback is helpful. However in these two cases, these are things done to help the AI:

* The extra tech-level requirements are inserted as a hint to the AI that the component is a good version to choose to satisfy a tech level requirement. For the Basic Life Support you list, this is because it's the most efficient version in terms of cost (if not in terms of structure or size). (I think listing the requirement multiple times gets the AI to prefer the component, but I could be wrong or it could have changed due to SE4 patches.)

* The mixing of the order in which shields are listed is also intentional and for the AI's benefit. In this case, it causes the AI to upgrade in the order listed. This corrects the AI bug/stupidity where it will replace all strong standard shield generators with Phased Shield Generator Mark I as soon as it is available, even though this isn't generally the best thing to do.

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