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Old April 9th, 2009, 02:46 AM

Fate Fate is offline
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Default Warhammer Lizardmen - Join the Communion Commrade

*DISCLAIMER* - I play mostly SP. I have only played Lizardmen in SP (so none of these strategies have been tested in MP). Just a grain of salt.

I love Sombre's Warhammer mods, and the Lizards (linky) in particular. I am making this guide in part to raise awareness, in part because it is my first guide and I kinda wanted to try writing one, and in part because I want Sombre to finish the nation ().

The Lizards are easily one of the most powerful nations. They are oozing sacred units, they have undeniably the most powerful mages (which also get an auto-communion), and access to every path except death. In capable hands they should be unstoppable.

Units:

Skinks - The little ones are the worthless dribble you get in PD. Never recruit the Mor 7 ones, get fewer, higher Mor alternatives. The elite and mounted Skink are interesting, but you would do better to buy Saurus for have the GCost. Even the Terradon Riders are too weak to be useful as fliers.

The Skink archers can be massed for Flaming Arrows + Wind Guide, but I would probably never buy these for anything else. Paired Skink must be killed twice. This gives them double resilience against tramplers. Also note all the skink have stealth. They can be useful as guards for sneaking priests in preparation for an ambush.

Saurus - The Saurus are great. The most gold effective unit I have seen. They even have magic weapons! I have very little to say about most of them - recruit whichever suits your needs. The mounted ones are good if you have gold to spend (not likely). I haven't noticed a large difference between the two warriors.

Kroxigor - don't bother, unless you have a specific need (regeneration/very high prot enemies). Even the second reason isn't great because all the Saurus have above average damage anyway.

Salamander - Fun to play with. Useful if you want to get underwater (but your Water Summons are even better for this). Expensive, so unless you really want them, don't bother.

Temple Guard - Go into your mod file and change these to 32 gold. At 24/25 (I can't remember because I changed mine) they are overpowered. Even at 32 gold I consider them THE unit to recruit. They are a solid sacred for a nation that loves a bless. Best of all, they work fine with a simple E9 (They pretty much like any bless you give them, except maybe N).


Commanders:

Skink Scout: A scout. I have tried gearing them to take advantage of the glamour, but the 5 hp is too little.
Skink Warchief: don't ever bother.
Saurus Vet: Can lead. Might be useful as a thug (but you have many better options).

Skink Shaman: Pretty much a Priest minus the holy and the auto-communion. There are some uses, but in general I would just get a Priest.
Skink Priest: Such an awesome unit, I dedicate this guide to them. More on that below.
Priest of Sotek: Will get you into blood (as if you need it). Just watch their herecy. Be prepared to lose all dominion in the province you have them blood hunting (keep them away from your research centers if you took magic).*

Slann - Fifth and Fourth: Very similar. I try to get Fourth where I can (note they are cap only) because they are just better than Fifth in every way (except, oddly, enc, but that is only by 1 point). Bear in mind they can go dormant - healing themselves and taking no upkeep. Very useful.

Oldblood: Cream on the cream pie. A great thug chassis (though lacking a little in hp, and no foot slot). When they die, the lizard they ride keeps fighting (and, miraculously, has the same slots) for the rest of the battle! Plus, they have a built-in Luck Ammy (as if they needed it). All the more reason to take a good bless.

*You could try using them to control bad scales, but that would require a bad scales. Lizards probably want at least mediocre scales.

Magic Duels:
rdonj and thejeff have pointed out issues with Magic Duel. Such problems should be mostly limited to the enemy pretender (I can't think of any nation with higher than S4 recruitables/summonables). For those battles you need to be prepared to lose any mages you commit. Note you can put your Slann to sleep, removing all their magic (and making them immune to duels), and command all your astral priests to hide/sneak. I would suggest trying for thugs over mages if you can (old bloods if it is early game, GoR summon of your choice, or sleepers, or whatever else you can get in later game).


Expansion:

Though you will find the Saurus perfectly serviceable, I suggest temple guard for expanding (you can prophetize your starting commander or send a priest for bless). We should probably take a sturdy bless, and the temple guard are better anyway. Even unblessed, 10 Temple Guard can take many provinces at Indy 6 without significant casualties.

An alternative (depending on your build) is the Oldbloods. They are excellent thugs. Two with frostbrands can take pretty much any Indy. If you took a strong bless (especially an E9) strongly consider giving them a shroud (it is cheap!).


Now, a quick look at Pretender:

Scales:
You need a lot of gold. Order 3 is a must. Your forts cost an outrageous amount, plus your (good) mages cost as much as most forts.

You also need magic (though you could easily take drain and focus on thugs/bless). But for now, I would suggest Magic 1.

I like to take Sloth 3. By the mid game you should have plenty of summonable units, so resources matter very little. If you focus on small, sacred armies you won't need any resources.

Your nation likes Heat 2, so Heat 3 seems like a good option (it also helps your coldblooded units).

That just leaves Growth and Luck to play with. I would suggest Death, because your have no Old Age to worry about. I like Luck for the gems (nice to get your site searching started), but it is not necessary. Do not take more than Misf 2, your PD is junk. It cannot take too many Barbarians/Knights (I would even be wary of Misf 1).

Dom strength - probably 5 to 7. There is no reason to take a high dominion, though you will want a moderate dominion for building sacreds and general satisfaction.

Magic:
You want a bless. All your mages and units are sacred. Some unit benefits from pretty much every bless, so here is a brief overview:

Fire: only useful to the units. The units have magic weapons already, so really it is just the Att and 6 AP dmg. Decent, but not my favorite.
Water: Great for the thugs and the units, useless for the mages. If you are pursuing a thug/sacred strat, take this one.
Air: Consider a minor in Air. Your shieldess summons and your communioned priests could use the air shield.
Earth: My personal favorite. Helps your communions and your thugs, and definitely adds to all your sacreds (though some like this more than others).
Astral: Meh. Nice, but by no means necessary (though it is excellent for your thugs).
Nature: Only has a noticeable effect on the Slann. Don't bother. And DEFINITELY don't get N9+, b/c your best mages are sacred.
Death: Good bless. Als the only real way to get into Death. However, I think you do not need the bless or the death access, viable as it is.
Blood: Pushes your high damage units into the very high damage realm. Also, Farstrike on your Slann for early SC/thug killing.

Definitely mess around to find a Bless that fits you. As I have said, I prefer earth. You don't really need your god for expansion, I would suggest an Imprisoned God. That and your scales should give you ~600-800 points to play with.

Also, decide now if you want to go deep into blood. If you do, you should probably take some on your pretender (otherwise, you need to empower to get anywhere). Sadly, I have no experience with a heavy blood Lizardmen, so you will be on your own.


Your strategic goals:

Awash in Gems

You have access to almost every path of magic. You also have a respectable starting income of gems, and you can forge (guaranteed) fever fetish and (with just the smallest touch of luck) clams.

Keep in mind Slann cannot wield hammers (though they can forge them). If you really want to get into fetishes/clams, you will want a priest with the right paths (check each priest for FN/WN combos). For clams, you need Constr 6, robe of the sea, and a water bracelet. Also keep in mind whatever gems you put into these projects are not going into summons, BE enchants, globals, or other items. Wait until you have a steady foothold before starting this.

For remote site searching, definitely start asap with Astral, Nature, and Water. For Earth, Air, and Fire you need to do a little manual searching with a Slann first. If you get enough Astral and you have the research, I would even consider Acashic record (as Slann time is very precious, and you actually can use every gem you get).


Why are the Cities all so Great???

You need to build a lot of forts. The money is nice, the control is nice, but the real reason is for Skink Priests. By the endgame you want to be swimming in priests - piles and piles of them. You want to be recruiting a Skink Priest in every province (which means you need a fort/lab/temple in every province). Your default action in every fort is to buy a priest. This takes priority over EVERYTHING else. Those extra ticks on PD? put it into a priest. Those 2 or 3 extra units? put it into a priest. I would support doing almost anything short of alchemy (and in some cases, even that) to get more priests.

So, this is your handicap. How much do your forts cost? In reality, 2300 gold and 6 turns. 1400 for the Great City (ouch) plus 400 for the temple, plus 500 for the lab, so you can recruit your priests. Don't bother trying to find a province with a different fort, they are all Great Cities (thats how the lizards roll).

On the plus side, your forts have admin 60. This is not for resources (remember, you have forts in every province), this is for gold. That is 160% gold in a province with a fort! So try to build your forts on farmland where possible. But most importantly, keep them away from the front. You do not want to lose your 1400 (or 2300) gold investment.

The Slann may be your big hitters, but correct management of your priests is what is going to win you games.


Slann VS Castle

This is the most difficult balance you must keep. I like to put my first 650 into a Slann. From there on, react to your needs. If you are fighting a lot or you are feeling the pinch for Slanns, buy some. But remember that every Slann you buy slows you entire economy because you are delaying that castle and therefore, those priests. Also, remember that the castles are practically useless without temples and labs because your ultimate goal is to build priests.


SKINK PRIESTS:

In case you don't know, Skink priests auto-cast communion slave. Slann auto-cast communion master. This is the most powerful advantage your nation has. And thoug the Slann are flashy, the priests are the ones that make the machine work.

Be very careful with these guys. Even though you have a lot, it is very easy to lose them all. Take a lot of steps to protect them:

1) Keep the Priests in a 3:1 or greater ratio with the Slann (2:1 if you really need the extra firepower). If you must have more in a given province/battle, put some Slann to sleep or remove the priests from battle (they can hide/sneak instead). Otherwise your Slann WILL pop your priests like candy.

2) Set the priests to Holdx5. You can do reverse Communions (I touch briefly below), but normally you won't (your Slann are normally much more powerful). The extra 20-60 fatigue the Priests will get casting their own spells of questionable value is a significant hazard, and makes them pop easily.

3) Reinvig. By mid (or at least by late) game you should have Summon Earth Power or Relief (and an Earth bless if you took it). Always cast these. The 4-18 reinvig can make a huge difference (especially 18!).

4) Scales. Your priests are cold blooded, so be very careful in cold dominion. Try a higher priest/Slann ratio, have your Slann cast fewer/lower level spells.

5) Communion Bonuses. Your Slann get +1 path for every power of two number of priests (+1 for 2, +2 for 4, +3 for 8, etc...). Keep note of this and be careful about which spells your Slann have access to. They like to cast the big stuff, even when it isn't necessary. NOTE: you get a Skink Priest at PD 20, remember this in your calculations.


Research:

So many options. A quick overview:

Conj: Not very useful in early & mid game, except for summoning the powers (especially summon earth power). Also, there is Power of the Spheres (great for reverse Communions).

Your water summons are in here, for attacking under water. Keep in mind you still need an underwater commander to lead them (construction-4 for rings of water breathing work well). Alternatively, you could just go for Constr-6 and the Sea-King's Goblet.

Alt: So many uses. Great for early astral/nature buff spam on your thugs/sacreds. Your Slann can use Eagle Eyes and Aim (in general they only seem to need one). Phantasmal Army is great for following up an ambush. At higher levels, there is Mother Oak, Frozen Heart, Iron Bane, great astral spells, and more...

Also, the earth summons have great protection. Try iron bane/acid rain with them, because they have no armour.

Evoc: You can cast everything here (except for those pesky death spells). Most of them probably aren't actually worth your Slann's time until you hit Evo 4 (acid rain, thunderstrike, bladewind). At Evo 6 Notice one of my favorite spells, Astral Fires. 100 Prec (haha darkness, storms, mists, &c...), 10 AN damage, 35+ range and 3+ AoE. On your fourth Gen slann that translates into 4 squares +your communion bonus. Spam it on any foolhardy opponent without fire resist (even underwater!).

The fire summon is 100% fire resistant and has strong stats otherwise. A solid summon if you can land the fire gems.

Constr: Great for gearing your recruitable thugs and mages. Also, the Astral summon has 30 morale! Worth the gems if you can spare them. Oh, and you can get Golems easily. And crystal shields. The possibilities are too numerous to list. A great research tree at any time.

Ench: Not your best tree. Lots of useful stuff that you will want eventually. Mostly go here if you need the domes. Or if you want to try out Flaming Arrows + Skink Archers. The nature sacreds are stealthy (useful for ambushes) but otherwise not terribly good.

Thaum: You will want Teleport to get around your mage's terrible 1 Map Move (all your mages can cast it). It also has the well known Astral anti-sc spells (though there are some other choices you can use if you want to surprise people). If you aren't playing CBM, watch out for Berserkers. Your Slann probably won't cast it (they prefer damaging spells), but you never know...

Also, the air summons have 19 (!) MR. Use them if anyone is giving you grief with MR spells.

Blood: Useful, but you aren't the strongest blood nation. The blood summons are ok (they have berserk, but you don't want a N9 bless for reasons I already stated), but nothing to get excitied about. No point in researching more than 2 (4 if you want the sacreds) unless you have blood on your pretender and you have a plan for going deep.


Tricks:

Just some ideas for communions, because that is what this nation thrives on:

1) Firestorm. Have 1 Slann + some priests + Summons of Chotek if you can. Cast Fire Res -> Fire Storm and enjoy the show.

2) Astral Tempest. Does MR negate this one? If so, cast your MR boosting spell(s) of choice followed by Astral Tempest.

3) Earthquake/Falling Rocks -> Cast Invulnerability first.
You get the idea of these...

4) Using Priests of Sotek, have them cast Sabbath Master followed by some Reinvigorations to help with fatigue on your communions.

Note, The Slann can go Dormant (change shape) mid-battle, making some of the best reverse communions. -Fantomen


REMEMBER: Your skink priests are stealthy. You can easily infiltrate a large communion of priests and teleport a couple Slann on top of them (great for attacking someone's capitol).


Aaaand thats as awake as I am tonight. If anyone ideas they think would go well here, I would be happy to add them to this post. Also, some of these ideas come from other people, but I can't remember who. If you want credit, just ask (here or PM) and I will add you.

Last edited by Fate; April 9th, 2009 at 12:34 PM..
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Old April 9th, 2009, 05:04 AM
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Default Re: Warhammer Lizardmen - Join the Communion Commrade

But hey, it isn't even finished yet! Maybe this will wake Sombre from his slumber and gives him an incentive to finish the mod...
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Old April 9th, 2009, 06:22 AM

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Hey this has to be the first mod nation with two guides I see that I fail at paying attention as you found a reasonably attractive way to get into clams, which would be very useful for the lizardmen. We appear to have a few differences of opinion on them but that hardly surprises me, if people can say baalz is wrong, just about anything in this game is up for argument.

I'm pretty sure fantomen was the first person to realize (publically at least) that slann being able to go dormant has excellent reverse communion potential, which again was really quite brilliant. The lizardmen have amazing reverse communion potential given that and coupled with a solid earth bless.


One of my biggest disagreements though is to your assertion that they're easily one of the most powerful nations. They have a good deal holding them back and while I would definitely agree that they're above average their deficiencies are too large to ignore. One of the big ones is that while their slann are amazingly powerful in battle, on the strategic map they're not nearly so great. They don't have hand slots so they can't forge, and it can be hard to pull together the levels for the more powerful ritual spells and globals since they are restricted to miscellaneous slots for boosters. Slann are also unfortunately vulnerable to mind duel. So in my mind they have plenty of weaknesses to make up for their strengths to keep them from being too powerful.
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Old April 9th, 2009, 10:15 AM

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First, thank You rdonj for reminding me of your excellent guide (here). I read it when I first got the mod, but had since forgotten. Maybe I should try to cover some of the other, less guide-covered Warhammer Nations.

As for being the most powerful. Hmm... Maybe my only fighting the AI has colored my opinion of them. It is true they will have trouble with many rituals, but it is a short walk up the astral tree (crystal coins to the rings on your Fourth Gen Slanns gives you S6) enough for all but the really high level astral rituals. E2s can even summon Golems. Also, W2 + bracelet (or a lucky W3) gives Naiads for Water and nature magic.

You are in contention for the water queen (though you aren't concentrating on conjuration early, so don't get too hopeful). A lucky A3 + bag of winds + RoW gives Queens of Air. If you get a very lucky 4 in an elemental (can only be done on a Fourth Gen) you can get fire/earth elemental w/ a ring of Wizardry. Of course, all these worries would be easier if you could summon Third Gen Slann (*hint hint*).

I think the most painful part is not being able to wield Hammers. I would suggest forging with something else (that can hold a hammer) wherever possible. If you took earth on your pretender you could try forge of the ancients, but I'm not sure it is worth it.

As for Dueling, I don't know. They are rather high level, on top of normally operating in a communion, so your opponent needs S4+ to even have a decent chance. If they have an S9 Pretender, well... I will have to think about that (I don't think it is an extreme worry until at least year 2, because who will take an awake S9 pretender?) On that note, you have a lot of Astral gems and your Fourth Gen are guaranteed to cast Dispel. Do NOT let some one else get Strands of Arcane Power.

In my opinion the lizards can take cover under their strong sacreds through the early game (though you will have to be careful about your losses). You shine in mid-game (all those BEs).

Maybe I will look at mage summons and try to get an examination of them written soon. Also, all your Fourth Gen Slann can cast Transformation. This removes their amazing combat potential but also removes their hefty upkeep (unfortunately, most of them have the same slots). You could try for Master Enslave +Pen items to get more mages (especially against Baalz's MA Oceania...).

Last edited by Fate; April 9th, 2009 at 10:23 AM..
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Old April 9th, 2009, 11:42 AM

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Default Re: Warhammer Lizardmen - Join the Communion Commrade

Communion levels, or any other booster levels, are not considered for Dueling. Only the base (or empowered) level counts.
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Old April 10th, 2009, 04:41 AM
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Default Re: Warhammer Lizardmen - Join the Communion Commrade

I must disagree on the skinks part. Red crested are more than able warriors, chameleon are deadly and quite survivable in melee, and I had very good results using terradons to storm castles, as they can dominate any non-infantry unit. Plus they are all stealthy, which is most usefull to fight on your terms.
Sure they won't make you forget your sacreds, as those are your line troops, but it would be a mistake ignoring them.
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Old April 10th, 2009, 06:41 AM

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I don't know that my guide was that excellent, but thanks for the compliment

If you wanted to make another warhammer nation guide might I suggest the tomb kings. Ogres are a bit more straightforward and the Tomb Kings themselves can have such random randoms that it's hard deciding what to do with some of them.
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