Could u stop Gorgon?

[Xietor]

I have played 2 friends that are fairly experienced DOM players, and they have had no answer for my 5e 4n 3 a gorgon.

I keep her with items that make her immune to wrath of god, arrows, flame bolts, and cold. And if i see armies of casters, she casts as well, and does not fly into smite, soul slay or other spells range.

She is harder than most sc because petrification reduces even the undead to rubble. And with mistform, mirror image, 3 forms of regeneration, 26 armor class, air shield, immune to fire, poison, lightning, and cold(with items and elemental fortitude, good reinvigoration, she is a tough out.

Though my friends have never tried it, I am thinking an attack of eyeless tramplers could work, such as a ton of earth elementals. The gorgon is size 4, so would be somewhat vulnerable to being trampled by size 6 eyeless tramplers.

[Boron]

No SC is invincible.

The standard anti-SC battlespells would work for example.

Drain life, Soul Slay, Banefire, Gifts from Heaven and the like.

But your friends would have to moveguess correctly and if you use your gorgon together with a strong army it will be even harder.

[Wish]

yeah earth ele's eat up petrifyers. (especially since they can be sent from casters at a capitol via earth attack.)

really all they need is a really high MR SC to go in with perhaps an armor negating or at least armor piercing weapon.

[Meglobob]

How about Mind hunt from distance would that work? My S9 pretender with eye of the void, spell focus and rune smasher kills 1 enemy commander per turn.

[Micah]

Aside from the obvious spells and the like a counter SC kitted out properly should be able to take her down fairly easily.

High MR takes care of the petrification, and beyond that a gorgon isn't going to be able to go head-to-head with any decent SC chassis. Mistform goes down first shot due to a magic weapon, 26 prot goes down to 13 against an AP weapon (elf bane?), and then you're left without any offensive punch against an SC nearly immune to your big gun. Once the mirror image breaks you're pretty much toast...maybe in home dominion with enough hp/regen yor gorgon would live long enough to get a lucky petrification roll, but things look pretty bleak.

Cyclops with E4/N2/W2 costs the same amount of pretender points. Outfit him with a lead shield, amulet of antimagic and armor/helm/weapon/boots/other trinket as needed for resistances or more MR, plus the mandatory reinvig. Without needing resistances I'd go Elf bane, rainbow armor, starshine skullcap, messenger boots and pendant of luck.

Script summon earthpower, elemental fortitude (if needed), personal regen, quicken self, iron will, attack and watch the carnage. That's a minimum of 30 MR, so if the petrification works it's just bad luck. 35 MR with skullcap/rainbow armor.

[Wish]

Pretenders are immune to mind hunt, i believe.

[quantum_mechani]

Wish said:
Pretenders are immune to mind hunt, i believe.

They are not. The only thing they are immune to is mind control spells.

[Taqwus]

Drain Life does armor-negating 100-prec unresistable damage from a distance. Boots of Quickness + Standard of the Damned = 2x life drain per round. Leech also works.

Petrify is remote, always-hits, and causes paralysis even if it's resisted.

A flying Bane Lord with a nasty weapon like Gate Cleaver, boots of quickness, and an antimagic talisman can do wonders against anybody who's relying on time to cast buffs.

Massed Faeries (massive stun damage from the elf shots) and Mandragoras / Mannikin (sleep vines get 3att each or so, making swarms dangerous) can also be ugly.

[TirAsleen]

easy to stop, i did some tests.....magic res19 alone is enough maybe lower works too.

but things with magic res udner 10 have no chance at all. usually gorgon is good to expand early on, but against other tough commanders with high magic res or just unique monsters she is pretty dead. high cost magic paths, too. there are far bette pretenders, like talking cyclops with high earth and fire and forging some good weapons for him. and you can have aegis shield too that is the same effect as what gorgon has. thing is you get that special way later, but with buffs most other SC pretender can kill weak indies anyways, i usually play indie strenght 8.

[Ironhawk]

Cyclops is a dangerous pretender to use as an SC. He has an alarming tendency to get his single eye poked out.

[TirAsleen]

well, thats rather cool and there are ways to cure him. at leat priestess works on him unlike on some undead pretenders like PoD, the aegis shield still works even if he is blind too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[mivayan]

curse + armies is a lot more likely to cause permanent afflictions on a cyclops too.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted.

[TirAsleen]

well against the armies there is that aegis shield,high hp are still high hp, and except for the cripple afflication that reduce AP a lot its not that bad to have afflicitons especially if you can heal them. with some items and healing units affliction do not mean so much. better have all item slots availible and good hp for SC. gorgon for example can die in 1-2 hits if there is not especially high dominion. arther more a psychologic thing those afflication i used to often play with undead and their souless armies....they had afflictions too but hardly stopped them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif and if you do not have any good items and cyclops lost his only eye and still is alive you can move him back in a lab and let him cast some rituals and do some research. well, its not that i think cyclops is the best god there is, just i would prefere him over gorgon any day as any strong unit with a bit of good magic res can quickly kill her.

[quantum_mechani]

FrankTrollman said:
The Gorgorn is actually pretty easy to stop. In melee she doesn't actually kill skeletons faster than a couple of skele spammers can throw them up. Sure, their low MR makes them die each round when they attack - but the stream of skeletons moves in fast enough that she doesn't make any forward prgress. Occassionally one of them makes a lucky hit and the Gorgon gets a battle affliction. Eventually she runs or dies. She might not kill any real troops.

Seriously, enchantment 3 and some Bakemono Sorcerers or Grand Thaumaturges and the battles is a foregone conclusion.

More importantly, should the gorgon get a battle result of "Mute" or "Feebleminded" she is unlikely to survive the battle against any opponents. A gorgon is a serious roll of the dice t the start of the game that can easily end with a dead gorgon.

---

So easy is it to stop or kill a gorgon in fact, that I regard her as a bad goddess for Pangaea. Pangaea has serious problems getting into secondary paths of magic, and a big Earth/Nature goddess doesn't help that at all.

-Frank

Versus a naked gorgon all that is a possibility, once they have equip and buffs (such as the OP references) skelly spamming will do nothing besides time out the battle if you have huge amounts.

[Xietor]

My gorgon never leaves my dominion, and she is pretty good in melee combat, with an aoe damage fire sword, lightning helm.

But the biggest drawback of the gorgon is low hps. But she can fly-and thus pick her fights. If I see a big army that looks to be made to kill my gorgon, expect it to meet another army. loaded with well equipped bane lords, war minotaurs, longbows,
and mechanical men.

And late game in my own dominion, you will face the gorgon in a haunted forest, and unless you have a lot astral gems, gift of health as well. Those dead troops turn into manikins that will aid my gorgon in melee.

Sure there are many good SCers, but how many come with built-in high protection, petrification, fear, flying, poison immunity? Best of all, she heals her own afflictions, unlike most other scers.(we have a "house" rule against using immortal gods, as that is considered super cheese).

By the time she appears after a brief nap,
i usually have 4 construction researched or am close.

With some nature artifacts, like eye shield, ring regeneration, snake bladder stick, silver hauberk(if have air gems) or black steel plate, she can easily take most indies.

Cyclops is one of my least favorite scers, as arrows tend to take out his only eye(:

[mivayan]

If the gorgon is alone in a province, a suicide squad of astral mages teleporting in scripted to cast horror mark x5, might eventually remove the gorgon permanently. Might need a lot of patience for it to work.

Strong fliers can hurt it before buffs are up.

[Wish]

screw suicide squad, have them all cast ritual of returning first.

[Xietor]

Unbuffed she has 26 armor, petrification, luck, regeneration.
She is not defenseless. And in a haunted forest, each dead flier is another target for the remaining flyers to have to kill. And typically the AI targets units before commanders.

Horror mark could be interesting. Would a gorgon lose to a horror? If I thought there was a strong risk I may have to give her some bodyguards, but, of course, that would limit her mobility unless i found some flying bodyguards.

[Teraswaerto]

Bodyguards don't really help against a Horror, as it will always attack the Horror marked pretender first, and usually kill it with the first attack.

It's possible that the gorgon could win with the right items, and scripting Petrify as the first spell should always work though.

[Wish]

have them "attack flyers", and in haunted forest they will neglect the manikins for the gorgon.

and frankly, regen on something with so little hitpoints isn't really all that hot.

[TirAsleen]

i am the only one that things its cool to play with a freak with only 1 eye? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif i like he can loose it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif but i played him not for a long time as i quitted to play SC for a while. without healers he is probably a thorn in your eye http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif but hp tanks are good as SC no matte with just 1 yes or 4 arms or no arms, or no legs etc =P

[Taqwus]

Role-playing a one-eyed pretender might be fun, but... beware the inevitable Firbolg Sniper with Vision's Foe and an Eye of Aiming. Base prec 15, +5 net from the eye if memory serves, and Vision's Foe does 17 AN + eyeloss.

[Xietor]

Who said she has so few hps? In her own dom, she has plenty enough to make regen worthwhile, especially as i have 3 regens that stack on her.

[Xietor]

eye shield does wonders against a cyclops, and they are cheap to make and can get them early.

[Xietor]

The more i think about it, i use staff of storms against caleum to keep them from flying. If i was concerned about flying banes, i think i would have someone with a staff of storms with my gorgon, perhaps a faerie queen.

[TirAsleen]

cyclops still useful to expand early and later he can send his army against those eye abusers. i feal more secure with more hp when playing a SC, eyeloss does not affect that. using SC only with high dominion in home domains does not make up for a good SC, as speed is everything in TBS games, sure no time to wait for preaching priests and spreading domains. maybe i do some test battle cyclops vs gorgon with eyeshild will be sure fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Xietor]

Gorgon is the best pretender for Pangaea. Mid game she kicks *** with const. 4 items, mistform, mirror image. I give her 3 air. mages can search death effectively. That leaves astral, water, fire, as missing gems. But you can typically get mercenary mages that can find these gems, or conquer a castle or 2 that gives you access, or you stumble across enchantress or another independent that can search for these.

Anyway, Pangaea has an abundance of the gems that matter most-nature. And the earth/air/nature gorgon allows for crafting of some very nice items with both high armor, air shield, low encumbrance.

So while some rainbow god may give you quicker access to gems you do not really need, you would be passing up a killer sc, that is unique to only your race in MA. And in late game, when you use the gorgon more in the role of a caster, she can crush opponents with blade wind and petrify spells and not get fatigued. the 3 air i give her, plus the 3 experience she typically has from clearing squares, she has a very good precision. And if a horde of undead make it back to her, she petrifys most of them.

And petrify is, imho, the best ability a pretender can have. whether it is a horror, or anything else, they have to pass that mr check or die before they can attempt to harm her. Flying is also very nice for a sc. Gorgon can use an item at every slot, and she is so much better than a dragon or manticore that it is not funny.

Granted, she cannot be use offensively in enemy dominion with her low hps, but she owns in her own dominion. And even
pretenders with super high hps are vulnerable in enemy dominion, so it is never too wise to use any pretender in enemy dominion anyway.

[TirAsleen]

whats the purpose of this post? gorgon is much better or much more fun? in all cases i have to disagree...

its good vs low magic res troops. those spells you mentioned any SC can use but most of the time at reduced design point cost. good choices for Pangaea as SC are white and black bull as well. no need for items, they can healthemselves, like gorgon have trample and with personal regeneration cast and high dominion they are hp tanks. you can also try cast mistform, quickness, body ethereal and all these things as well, it will cost less. in direct combat vs high res units with high strenght and attack you'd better play these. 30hp is really too fragile for SC. as said, forge aegis shield and use it with a humanoid titan-like pretender with a lot more hp and cheaper magic paths and its the same as gorgon just better if you like powerplay so much.

[Nick_K]

I don't play MP so I couldn't say for sure, but I imagine that an SC designed to kill her could scrag the gorgon even in strong friendly dominion. Such an SC could easily fly into battle, so it would be difficult for her to avoid it.

Of course, if you really want to find out, try playing your gorgon in mp against the guys from this thread who are sure they could destroy her. That'd give an answer as to who's right!

[Xietor]

true that. I typically play Dom III with real life friends, though that does limit your exposure to new strategies.

How about the gorgon wearing the aegis, do potential killers have to pass a double petrification check before getting to attack?

To the question posed above, the original question is how you can kill a gorgon. And there have been some good suggestions.
That i like playing the gorgon is obvious. And I disagree that a titan is better or cheaper. Look at the titans available to MA Pangaea, and tell me which is better?

Petrification is available from the outset, not at const 8. poison resistance is the best resistance to have.

flying is also a must. Which titans fly? Which titans heal their own afflictions? Which ones have fear plus 5?

It is all a matter of preference. I laugh at the manual's suggestion of using an awake alchemist for Ulm. That is all well and good if you enjoy having a pretender whose main function is to hunt for gem sites. I personally do not enjoy playing that style. I like a pretender that can fight. And I like one that can fly to get to fights in a hurry. And there are items that can reduce an enemy's chance to resist petrification. And taking a magic scale also makes enemies less likely to resist petrification, as well as helping those expensive pans along with their research.

I also am a firm believer in having all your slots for items. the bull may have more hps, but he has 2 slots. End game if he goes trampling into high end troops and a row of mages, he is toast. The gorgon, with items, is a great caster. And there is no comparison between trample and petrification. One exhausts your pretender, one can kill 30 enemies and you take no fatigue.

[Wish]

i don't think thats how it works. as petrification shows up in the abilitys section (along with stealth and etc.) so once you have petrify, you have petrify.

Caelum has a bunch of flying titans. (and its real easy to get someone flying, with 3 magic items and 1 artifact that do so) not many heal their own afflictions though.

no one is arguing that petrification isn't a devastatingly powerful weapon. this is certainly true. perhaps the most powerful trait in the game, even ahead of blood vengeance. (I wish there was a unique creature with it for modding purposes, but alas.)

I agree an alchemist is a bad choice, but thats because I think the great sage is the only human pretender worth taking.

one SC bound to her own dominion is not going to win the game against someone who knows how to utilize the anti-sc aspects of the game.

[TirAsleen]

hehe and i like to kill SC's easy enough actually. rather have a powerful mage and site researcher, numbers can win in this game quite easily, just for the gorgon we make an exception and send some tough high res units.

btw, i think manticore or dragons alone can easy kill the gorgon as they fly too, with good res and are physically stronger. and there are other strong humanoid flyers as pretenders. for 1vs1 she isn't a good choice, whats left if their petrification doesn't work?

[Xietor]

What is left if petrification fails?

Her items, 7 of them, giving luck, etc. which the dragon will not have. her lightning helm. ember, regen/revig boots, astral shield. What 2 items will your dragon have?

And his breath attack will be useless, as the gorgon will be immune to poison, fire, and ice.

[TirAsleen]

check strenght of dragons and as a flyer he can reach you before having those items too.alteration let him cast enough buffs and he has not to worry you come close to him with these hp. recuperation is only really worth on high hp pretenders and units. does not matter much when you die in 2 hits, eh? btw, we can have a game with my other 2 friends any time if you wish, if you have time you can join there. while i think her petrification is kinda unbalanced vs most troops and especially indies, she is really toast against any physically strong high res unit, white/black bull, kraken alone high hp with powerful attacks and recuperation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif and they can kill indies too without petrification and a lot of armies ,but thing is, they can kill that gorgon in some few seconds, except she is in her own dominion and manages to fly away. its not all that impressive. and strats based on forging weapons are not impressive either, in middle/late game you can a lot of other things too. like 6000 undead coming for you with summons to waste your dust to dust spells.

i was impressed by gorgon too and thought she is maybe best SC and horribly unbalanced and i wanted to ban her....until i saw whats happen if something big comes at her. so in a SC contest she is rather at a disadvantage with those hps.

[Graeme Dice]

How is a dragon going to hurt a pretender with mistform or etherealness? Dragons are thugs for expansion, and are not a particularly well suited chassis for killing SCs. A white or black bull will have absolutely no effect on a Gorgon, since they'll just attempt to trample her, and probably do about two or three damage per turn. Any unit with multiple attacks such as the Kraken is essentially asking to be killed by petrification, especially when you can't get their MR above 22 outside of their dominion. The ancient kraken also doesn't have a magical weapon, and doesn't have a particularly impressive attack score, so he'll have trouble hitting and damaging a mistformed or ethereal gorgon.

[Xietor]

Umm no, your dragon cannot reach my gorgon before she has 7 construction 4 items. I sleep her for the extra 150 points, and you can make 7 really good items with 4 const researched and nature games. The 1st thing i research is constr 4.

And while the dragon is mighty naked, I would not think flying him into enemy dominion and letting 20 minotaurs beat on him is a good idea. Minotaurs do some hefty damage to pretenders, and their attack is decent when berserk, and their damage is very good, maybe even excellent.

Against a pretender early in the game, id likely give her an sword sharpness, an eye shield, black steel plate, horned helmet, birch boots, ring of regeneration, amulet of resilience or bear claw. If i had dagan prior to the fight i would make a luck pendant to go with the ring of regeneration. I get dagan early about 60 percent of my games.

[TirAsleen]

well, as said we can play and dragon was just a thought, with some buffs he can kill her anti magic amulet seems required to battle gorgon in her dominion. ghost king with his ghosts can kill gorgon too. i made some test, both had mirror image, mistform, ethereal, and so on. mistform and mirror image also protects well from dust to dust. so speaking about this magic just means that is strong not necessarly your gorgon, not when magic res is high enough. there is the anti magic spell for that and item. and you can provide friendly dominion too. and if gorgon is so mighty and ubber it needs a heavy nerf? why do we have nerfed VQ and stillt hat gorgon around then? this makes no sense then.

[Graeme Dice]

TirAsleen said:
well, as said we can play and dragon was just a thought, with some buffs he can kill her anti magic amulet seems required to battle gorgon in her dominion.



An antimagic amulet is essentially required for any SC in any battle if you want them to survive for the long term. Whether your pretender is outside of your dominion or not has little bearing on that.


mistform and mirror image also protects well from dust to dust.



Neither mistform nor mirror image have any effect whatsoever on dust to dust. Mistform could only possibly have an effect on a spell that causes mundane damage, while mirror image would only have any effect on spells that fire projectiles and do not cause area of effect effects.


and if gorgon is so mighty and ubber it needs a heavy nerf?



Where on earth are you getting this idea from? I'm simply pointing out that the supposed counter of a monstrous pretender is one of the worst possible choices.

Could you please use proper capitalization and punctuation to make your posts less difficult to read?

[TirAsleen]

graeme dice, i do not take you any serious with your righteous behaviour, its from my expierence a very childish way to communicate. besides you post wrong things here.

mirror image and mistform does protect against dust to dust spell i tested it today.

pls do you research before posting, its possible you might be wrong, even if you do not think so. thank you.

[Gandalf Parker]

Shifting from subject to personal attacks will get the thread closed.

[Edi]

TirAsleen, you're not going to get very far with that attitude. Graeme may be putting things rather bluntly, but for the most part he is correct. Your dismissal of his argument just because he didn't take the most diplomatic approach is very poor form.

Mistform probably protects against Dust to Dust, since Dust to Dust causes physical damage to undead. Mirror image does not protect against it at all, because it is an area effect spell.

So the admonition to doing your research before posting applies to you as well.

Furthermore, the lack of capitalization and punctuation IS annoying because it means that reading and comprehending your posts takes five times as long as it normally would.

[Reverend Zombie]

Edi said:
TirAsleen, Furthermore, the lack of capitalization and punctuation IS annoying because it means that reading and comprehending your posts takes five times as long as it normally would.



As inartful as the postings might be, it doesn't take me very long to comphrehend what Tir's saying--certainly not 5 times as long.

Suggestions to properly capitalize and punctuate are reasonable, but when made publicly seem intended as much to shame as to improve the readability of the forum.

[Potatoman]

The petrification mr check on the Aegis (which I'm assuming is identical to the Gorgon's petrification check) seems to be relatively easily negated by high mr. In Newbie game 2, one of my Water Queens with an mr of 18 survived about 15 attacks against an aegis-carrying Seraph before finally succumbing. Throw on an anti magic amulet and maybe an astral hat and I don't think you'll be having any problems.

I don't think the Gorgon is much scarier than any other midgame SC. It's potent, but will fall to a thug or two if left unsupported and is vulnerable to most battlefield spells, thanks to a relatively low hit point total.
If you're counting on having Gift of Health, a friendly dominion, and Haunted Forest in play for every battle then I don't think you're playing in a very competitive game. Perhaps you should try your gorgon strategy in one of the multiplayer games hosted here on the dominions 3 boards before proclaiming your strategy broken?

[Edi]

Reverend Zombie said:

Edi said:
TirAsleen, Furthermore, the lack of capitalization and punctuation IS annoying because it means that reading and comprehending your posts takes five times as long as it normally would.



As inartful as the postings might be, it doesn't take me very long to comphrehend what Tir's saying--certainly not 5 times as long.

Suggestions to properly capitalize and punctuate are reasonable, but when made publicly seem intended as much to shame as to improve the readability of the forum.


Actually, that depends on how the suggestion is made and Graeme's request seemed reasonable enough to me. My own comment might have been harsher sounding.

Whether or not posts that lack proper punctuation and capitalization are hard to read depends directly on the length of the post and if paragraphs are used. That post of Tir's that I and Gandalf replied to was short enough that no problem, but the one before that starts getting into the difficult to read territory.

You also have to take into account that we probably also have dyslexics as members, and they might have even more difficulty than normal deciphering poorly formatted posts. That's reason enough to put enough effort to use proper grammar. Dyslexics sometimes also tend to produce poorly formatted posts, which is a possibility I acknowledge here, but I'm not going to assume it, especialy given the number of people on the net who just don't bother with proper capitalization and punctuation.

[Reverend Zombie]

Edi said:
Whether or not posts that lack proper punctuation and capitalization are hard to read depends directly on the length of the post and if paragraphs are used. That post of Tir's that I and Gandalf replied to was short enough that no problem, but the one before that starts getting into the difficult to read territory.



Indeed you are right--some posts are tougher than others!

[Xietor]

I play mostly MP games, but typically with only 1 or at most 2 human players. And with the huge surplus of nature gems i typically have, keeping one global spell up has never been an issue. keeping 2 or 3 up is pretty hard.

Not sure many players think it is worth their while to focus on keeping haunted forest dispelled. If your invading army consists of high end troops, haunted forest is not much of a detriment. it is the large armies of low end troops that are greatly affected by haunted forest.

I find it much harder to keep gift of health up.

I am sure with greater numbers of human players, keeping any enchantment up may be a challenge.

The queen of water, with items, is a potent sc in her own right. She could go toe to toe with most scs.

[TirAsleen]

First off, this is a games forum not a school class. i post in whatever grammar i can, another reasion is, english is not my 1st language. Critizing my grammar or other things that do not have to do anything with the subject is rather arrogant and short sighted when its happening here on a game forum, another reason why i will ignore such posts in the future. And i usually type quickly from mp games or at work so i have no time to check for spelling and other stuff, just cause you have the time, does not mean all other guys have it.

I talk in many other tbs related english forums for years and all people do understand what i post, so edi and graeme dice: don't bother and stay to the subject, more friendliness would be welcome too your do you treat all newcomers to this board like this? I played since dom1 and just lurked this board for years, i know which people have which attidude, meaning the arrogant and unfriendly posters are allready well known, i can only say do not bother me, thank you.

If you do not understand what i write or if its too hard to read for you feel free to ignore my posts, it would make us both more happy and this thread could finally stay on topic again and Gandalf or other moderators are not forced to close this thread. Anyways, it would be nice if some guys here would be more friendly when posting, no matter who is right, stay friendly and you are treated friendly as well.
Btw, i know the elitist behaviour well, in aow sm i leaded the ladder and all mp games, its tbs as well, i do not intend to repeat stupid wrongs in the past and no one should either. Dom community sure do not need arrogant elitist destroying the game with unfriendly behaviour.

Dust to Dust:(slightly off topic but gorgon could use it too): In my test i used 5 mages with 3 in death magic path scripted casting "dust to dust" several times. Ghost king was scripted to cast mistform, astral image and other buffs. dust to dust did no damage at all and this after 10 castings directly on the ghost king. It might eventually hit the ghost king, but it did deal never damage, all it did was to kill mirror image. After that mistform protected ghost king against exactly 1 hit, dealing 1damage. So Mistform was gone too. And finally Ghost king was hit big time by dust to dust for full damage. This is what is saw in the combat screen. I did not run 10 battles like this, but the results speak for itself. Or can a unit be so lucky to survive 10 dust to dust from close range? The mages just stood in front of him and its area damage too. So please consider this. The ghosts that travels with the ghost king come in handy too. Gorgon seems very vulnerable to Life Drain. So with ghosts he can certainly kill her if she is not stuffed with the best items in the game.

Other Pretenders that can deal with Gorgon:

Lord of the Night, good hp, humanoid so can use lots of items, assassin and BLIND.

Void Lord, better hp as gorgon, Life drain tentacle that she is vulnerable against and BLIND.

So, while i agree she is powerful against most armies i am not convinced she is the best SC, not in a direct combat with other SC. magic res items or anti magic spell is not need in friendly domain, its needed in hostile domain only or if Gorgon is using special penetration items. So Gorgon is limited to her own domain, when fighting other SC in any case. Additonally panagea has very weak priests, in LA(prefere to play in that era) their priests have just lvl1 preachers. They depend on better independent priests. I do not see these things as much as advantage. And while white/black bull do trample much its very good vs small armored troops, helping expanding early on what kinda is the same purpose of the gorgon as well why risk her in battle with other SC? To get her back is a long way with just lvl1 preachers.

[Graeme Dice]

TirAsleen said:
And i usually type quickly from mp games or at work so i have no time to check for spelling and other stuff, just cause you have the time, does not mean all other guys have it.



A person's posts are written only once, but are read multiple times. This makes it basic common courtesy to to minimize the amount of time people will have to spend reading what you write.


Dust to Dust:(slightly off topic but gorgon could use it too): In my test i used 5 mages with 3 in death magic path scripted casting "dust to dust" several times. Ghost king was scripted to cast mistform, astral image and other buffs. dust to dust did no damage at all and this after 10 castings directly on the ghost king.



There is no spell called astral image, and you have not even identified what the other buffs are, so this is hardly a definitive test.

[TirAsleen]

astral image=mirror image. i sometimes confuse words here.

Other buffs: quicken self and personal regeneration.

[Edi]

TirAsleen said:

Dust to Dust:(slightly off topic but gorgon could use it too): In my test i used 5 mages with 3 in death magic path scripted casting "dust to dust" several times. Ghost king was scripted to cast mistform, astral image and other buffs. dust to dust did no damage at all and this after 10 castings directly on the ghost king. It might eventually hit the ghost king, but it did deal never damage, all it did was to kill mirror image. After that mistform protected ghost king against exactly 1 hit, dealing 1damage. So Mistform was gone too. And finally Ghost king was hit big time by dust to dust for full damage. This is what is saw in the combat screen. I did not run 10 battles like this, but the results speak for itself. Or can a unit be so lucky to survive 10 dust to dust from close range? The mages just stood in front of him and its area damage too. So please consider this. The ghosts that travels with the ghost king come in handy too. Gorgon seems very vulnerable to Life Drain. So with ghosts he can certainly kill her if she is not stuffed with the best items in the game.


Let's review the basics here:

Dust to Dust deals physical NON-MAGICAL damage to undead creatures. Etherealness protects against non-magical damage, ergo Dust to Dust cast against a GK misses totally 75% of the time. So only 25% of DtD will hit at all and deal varying amounts of damage. Read the spell description, it says DtD causes damage against undead, but rarely affects ethereal undead creatures.

[TirAsleen]

Dust to Dust, Description:

The Mage destroys undead beings by unraveling the magic that holds them together. The Spell affects all undead in a small area. Neither magic resistence nor armor offer any protection from this spell.

Thats all there to read. I wonder why you have a different Description?

[Reverend Zombie]

Edi said:


Read the spell description, it says DtD causes damage against undead, but rarely affects ethereal undead creatures.



That sounds like the description for Maggots.

[Edi]

Hmm, I must have confused that with Wither Bones. My mistake. Hard to check since I don't have Dom3 at work. Sorry. Still, it could be that it deals non-magical damage, in which case ethereality would protect against it. I don't know.

EDIT: Or confused it with maggots. Which spell affected demons? Was it maggots or something else?

[Reverend Zombie]

I thought Maggots was especially for undead. Dunno about Wither Bones.

[Nick_K]

AFAIK neither maggots nor wither bones nor dust to dust affect demons

(edit)
Oh, unless it's changed since Doms2 dust to dust almost certainly doesn't do physical damage. I remember well an AI caster zapping a square of 6 shade hounds with the spell and killing them all outright. That would be extremely unlikely to happen if there was only a 1/4 chance of each hound being affected.

Not sure why we're talking about dust-to-dust here though. The gorgon isn't undead is she?

[TirAsleen]

No, but she could use that spell against undead pretenders that would be good to kill her.

[Xietor]

Ok, in my current game where my friend resigned in late winter of year 7, I had a situation with marigon attacking me with a huge army. 471 castle bought troops and 18 commanders, many of which cast paralyze(an overpowered spell that needs a nerf). they were about to storm the giant's capitol that i had captured earlier.

Flew my gorgon there just in time. I had dom 8 in the square, and had both gift of health and haunted forest up.

The Gorgon had 144 hps, regenerated 29 hps a turn, 28 ac, 12 revig, 31 defense, 26 mr, 100 percent resistance to poison, fire, lightning, 50 percent resist to cold.

ember, barrier shield, lightning helm, silver hauberk, boots antaues, krupps bracer, ring regeneration, scripted,summon earthpower, mistform, mirror image, fire shield, and iron will, attack closest.

Of course right off the bat i get paralyzed. But my regen unbuffed was still 27 a turn, and despite my defense being zero, the gorgon was never hurt badly, she petrified all of the calvary that got to her, crossbow bolts fell harmlessly around her. She won the fight against 471 troops 18 commanders with ease, despite being paralyzed.

of course a few bane lords with wraith swords, and she would have died. But this is a perfect example of how a flying gorgon can pick her fights, and beat down a huge army late in the game that is not tailor made to kill her.

most scs, being paralyzed, would have died. But against mr 10 armies, the gorgon killed them before they could hurt her.

[Wish]

your opponent was stupid for not preparing for the possiblity of a gorgon, if he knew you had one.

[Xietor]

he is not a die hard Dom III player. He has played many times, but he plays wow more than any other game.

[TirAsleen]

Wonder what this thread should achieve...higher design point cost simlar to VQ? If you convience enough people Gorgon is extremely strong we maybe can see this in a next patch.

Actually i would have no problem with that, why VQ lost ethereal and cost 175 design points and Gorgon still rambles around? While there are possiblities to kill her it seems just that petrification is too much overall as an ablitiy. It even works on magic res16 units, some people should have a look how high national troops magic res is! So what can be done is to make Gorgon cost more or nerf that petrify ability. Or restore old power of VQ.

Makes me also a bit wonder why you exclude immortal Pretenders in your games, but not Gorgon, i find the Gorgon more brutal overall. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Sombre]

It could well already be toned down in the Conceptual Balance Mod.

I kinda doubt that the devs will turn their attention to balance changes in the patches. So far it hasn't been a priority for them.

[Gandalf Parker]

Conceptual Balance Mod is great for its purpose. Its a collaborative effort by veteran players and has been an ongoing project since early in Dom2 days. It seeks to balance the nations for competitive player-vs-player play in small quick blitz games.

When many small fast games are played, imbalances can be quickly found and abused that would ruin the game when they wouldnt be a big deal on larger and more fun-style play. Everyone uses mods to alter the game abit when it gets stale. The CB mod is most likely the singular mod keeping blitz games interesting for veteran players.

[Wish]

yeah, this isn't an MMORPG, the devs let the players decide what is balanced.

[Teraswaerto]

Xietor said:
paralyze(an overpowered spell that needs a nerf).



Why? Because it can be used to beat a gorgon? If paralyze is overpowered, what about spells that offer no MR save?

You should try playing with people who know Dom3 as well as, or better, than you, and see if the gorgon still seems as good. I see no need for a nerf.

[Nick_K]

Yeah, I don't play Mp myself so I'm hardly a top strategist, but expecting the gorgon I'd include a high-mr thug or two with heavily damaging weapons in every army fighting in your dominion, maybe script a few 'horror mark' spells as well and try to dispell gift of health on top of that.

(edit), sorry forgot to read page 5 before replying! This is in reference to the battle vs 18 commanders 400-odd troops referenced there

[Xietor]

Unlike immortal pretenders, if you kill the gorgon, even in her own dominion, she is dead.

And she is, with 30 hps, limited to her own dominion. Her point cost is already a bit steep with a starting dom of only 2, and 80 points for a new path, effectively limiting her to 1 additional path, and that at a fairly high cost given Pangaea gets zero free design points from weather scale.

And a god with a high fire shield and regen, with more hps, likely could have survived the fight paralyzed as well. Dom 8, haunted forest, gift of health, and 4 unique artifacts are a pretty big boost for any sc pretender.

As for mp games, I have time for them. But i typically like to play bigger maps and the games go on for a long time. With real life friends, we can schedule play sessions for 5-6 hours and get in many many turns in 1 day. If you have a game with 10 humans, it would markedly change the strategy a player could use, but the game would also go much slower, with turns being harder to coordinate.

I have played dominions II for years, so I am not sure that there are many players that have played the game more. Though, i have not even tried to play EA or LA, or many of the new races. Playing a race i am familiar with, on the bigger maps i like, i doubt i would experience many new surprises. Though i agree when you play against the same people over and over, their strategies become predictable.

But I would be glad to join a game MA, on a 250-275 province map, with 3-4 humans and the rest AI races. And, I do not think the gorgon is unbeatable, btw. As i said in another thread if winning was the only goal, id play MA acrosphale, using astral mages, elephants, and double blessed heart companions, and mid game, wrath of gods.

Mostly, I just enjoy playing MA Pangaea, and the gorgon.

[Gandalf Parker]

Slipping in a well armored thug with some of those special bows seems to always help. Like the one that does 999 damage, or the one that does madness so the target loses their magic. Or disease. A few attacks with fire and retreat will usually get a hit in. Of ocurse you might have to insure there is enough sword-fodder on the field for distraction but it does tend to work as a tactic for taking a big boy down a notch.

Sometimes add flying boots with the 3rd scripted command being a straight attack so you can jump in close.

If he leaves slots open you can always try suicide bombers to try and slip him something debilitating.

[Xietor]

I do not leave slots open, and the silver hauberk prevents arrows from hitting my SC. With low hp, the Gorgon would be toast if hit by a volley of crossbolts. That is the main reason i take 3 air with the gorgon.

[mivayan]

Xietor said:
Ok, in my current game where my friend resigned in late winter of year 7, I had a situation with marigon attacking me with a huge army. 471 castle bought troops and 18 commanders, many of which cast paralyze(an overpowered spell that needs a nerf).


A bunch of astral-2 mages? Be glad he didn't give one two gems and orders to cast Light of the northern star, with the rest spamming soul slay http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Meglobob]

mivayan said:

Xietor said:
Ok, in my current game where my friend resigned in late winter of year 7, I had a situation with marigon attacking me with a huge army. 471 castle bought troops and 18 commanders, many of which cast paralyze(an overpowered spell that needs a nerf).


A bunch of astral-2 mages? Be glad he didn't give one two gems and orders to cast Light of the northern star, with the rest spamming soul slay http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Yes, even if you have high MR, like 24+, if you have a dozen astral mages casting soul slay. One of them will get lucky sooner or later and take out your SC. I know, its happened to me more than once and they both had troops with them!

Is it me or do spells like paralyze, soul slay etc...seem to have a greater chance of targeting larger tagets, size 4 and above? Or is it because they are at the front of the battlefield slaying the opposition?

[thejeff]

Or Horror Mark?

Longer term damage, but...

[Wish]

yeah the AI aims for bigger targets (when in range) with 100 accuracy spells.

[Xietor]

I think paralyze is a bit overpowered. It takes 2 astral magic to cast, is only a 4th level spell, and it can basically take a top notch troop or a sc out of combat for 25 rounds?

And it is free to cast? What spell does nature get that is comparable? Vine arrow? At level 7 you get charm, but that is way further down the line and takes 3 nature to cast.

Acrosphale with about 15 of those level 3-4 astral mages all spamming paralyze, soul slay, and enslave mind, sitting in a castle can be a bit much. Though a few blade winds can end that spam in a hurry.

[Edi]

So, what's the problem then?

[Xietor]

I think the duration of paralyze is the problem. I can see 3-4 rounds of combat, but not 20-30.

[Teraswaerto]

Nature has Sleep. 100+ fatigue is pretty much equal to paralyze, and it's lower in research. Precision is not 100, but Eagle Eyes helps with that.

[Meglobob]

Xietor said:
Acrosphale with about 15 of those level 3-4 astral mages all spamming paralyze, soul slay, and enslave mind, sitting in a castle can be a bit much. Though a few blade winds can end that spam in a hurry.



However if you play Marverni you can script stoneskin or ironskin or invulnerabilty first then spam paralyze. You then laugh at bladewind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

However, I personally think paralyze is perfectly fine as it is.

Shadowblast paralyzes as well btw and inflicts serious amounts of damage, of course its low precision.

Everything has its pros and cons in Dominions.

[Edi]

Xietor said:
I think the duration of paralyze is the problem. I can see 3-4 rounds of combat, but not 20-30.


I've seen paralysis last anywhere from 1 to 27 rounds, so it's not as if it always puts the target in ice for half the combat. You were asking the question earlier about how to take down a gorgon, now that this viable tactic is offered, suddenly it needs a nerf? Why?

Dom3 is a rock-paper-scissors type of game so that everything does not need to be equally balanced against everything else.

[Xietor]

the other thing about paralyze is its range, its 100 precision, coupled with the ability to paralyze for 30 plus turns. And they stack. If you have a unit paralyzed for 7 turns and he gets hit again he can be paralyzed for 25 more.

It just seems a bit out of whack for a 2 astral spell you can get fairly early and has no gem cost. I think it is a good equalizer for scs, but it would be fine with a cap of like 5 turns per cast.

[Xietor]

As to the suggestion that he should have had one of his mages cast a spell that cost gems, sometimes when you fight 3-4 fights to get to a key battle, you mages have wasted all of the gems you give them.

Say you want a nature mage to cast mass protection, but no other spell that used gems. Unless there is a command i do not know of, typically the mage will waste all of the gems he has casting spells like swarm etc.

I guess one answer could be to give nature games to another commander, and ration the gems to a nature spellcaster, but if you hate micro managing, then that would be a pain.

[Teraswaerto]

Keeping gems on a scout is a good idea.

[Xietor]

It would be nice if a mage would only use gems to cast if you script that spell to be cast. Would save a good bit of hassle.

[TirAsleen]

60 avalon knights can handle her. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif If man manage to have gift of health active and not panagea so gorgon has no additonal hp she can quickly die against mulitple good units. Or maybe just units with good att and damage with good res lots of AP and blessed with an astral bless plus anti magic spell affecting whole battlefied. Should deal with the situation too. Problem is, she has always a good chance to escape as flyer.

I played a Gorgon yesterday and a friend just had 20 avalon knights and like 100 longbows attacked with single gorgon and dominionI in that province(positive for me) she killed all avalon knights and she managed to fly away with just 1hp left, surprisingly she was even wounded with air shield, mistform, invulneriblity, mirror image, personal regeneration up, and longbowmen did the damage not avalon knights, they quickly died, however in another testgame 60 of them could kill her. Probably anything with good stats and magic res and flying can kill her too.

[Valandil]

It seems to me that some of the posts in this thread assume conditions that are rather... unlikely.

Touting the strength of a unit that requires, for example, two globals, seven items, the aegis, four uniques, or somesuch seems to me not unlike me declaring that my triple power wished gift of reasoned S9 abomination prophet of DOOM (tm) is overpowered.

Perhaps if we limited the tests to say, magic level four, we would get more applicable results.

However, in the spirit of the thread, I propose this counter:

The gorgon costs: ember (20), barrier shield (20), lightning helm (20), silver hauberk (15?), boots of antaeus (15), krupp's bracers (10), ring of regeneration (10).
Gift of Health (probably about 60 to keep it for a few turns) Haunted forest (maybe 100).

That is.... 270 gems.

I propose...
let's see... If I take an S9 A3 D4 destroyer of worlds, and I power wish, and I give it Mage Bane, Aegis, The Summit, Barrier, Amon Hotep, Robe of Callius, Boots of Quickness, and the Heart of Life... Script to Soul Vortex, Body Ethereal, Personal Luck, Mirror Image, Mistform, Astral Shield, Attack.

The Gorgon Dies!

(note: Do not take the above seriously. I realize that the globals can hardly be counted in the price of the Gorgon. And she probably doesn't need all those artifacts.)

[TirAsleen]

...You know that construction8(or just6) is WAY easier to come by than alteration9 AND conjuration9??? And 1 wish 100 Astral Pearls? If you have all that i'd say start a new game, i wouldn't play it.