Danish TO & E

[Palle]

I noticed that the Danish TO & E is a bit dated.
Though you now include the Jægerkorps at least, it is not a very accurate depiction (understandably so as they are not too keen on publicity, but the past 5 years has seen some more openness- in Danish texts), and the DANCON/ISAF, DANCON/IRAQ and DANCON/KFOR seems to have been left out entirely.

In order for this to not be just me complaining, I offer to share what I have come across should you be interested and add my thanks for a great and generally well-researched (free!) game.

[DRG]

Post what you have and I'll look into it

Don

[Palle]

I also notice that the CVG90 IFV can carry 10 men. It can in fact only carry 7 and the groups to use them are being reorganised to six for that reason.

[Palle]

Quick disrepancies for DANCON.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to not find the Light Reconaissance Squadrons anywhere (1. LOPESK of Musa Quala fame for example).

Since at least 2006 the HMGs on the GDs (Geländewagens) and Eagles have been equipped with Night Vision- All Weather goggles (source Lars Ulslev Johannesen "De danske Tigre, Cph 2008), as has Platoon commanders and up. From 2009 all troops in DANCON ISAF have supposedly recieved it, though not all at once. Source Forsvarskommandoen (http://forsvaret.dk/FKO/Nyt%20og%20Presse/Ovrigenyheder/Pages/EffektivtermiskkikkerttilISAF.aspx).

I do not know what effect it has on the "radio" stat of the DANCON forces, but since 2006 at least they have all had Bowman PRRs.

The Danish Snipers were only Home Guard until 2002 (from 1966 on equipped with a modified H & K G3 labelled M66), from 2002- 2006 we had none (except the ones in Jægerkorpset who worked only within the frame of the Jæger Patrols). There may have been Snipers back in the days, but from 1988- 2006 the Army had none. Then from 2006 we started training snipers within the framework of the army, there are not very many and all in DANCON or training for it. They work with a spotter and employ the Sako TRG 42 .338 Lapua Magnum as the M82 has been found to be inaccurate above 500 m. Only the Engineers and Navy employ the M82 these days, for detonating mines at a distance.

from 2009 onwards a replacement of the C7 (labelled M95 here) with the C7A2 (M08) here will be taking place (Source (http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2008/12/16/141715.htm)). Pictures from Afghanistan has shown some in use as early as 2006.

Denmark has also purchased the Bofors FH77BD "Archer", but AFAIK none has arrived yet, they should during this "Forsvarsforlig 2010- 2014" (Source (http://danskpanser.dk/Artikler/Naeste_generations_ildstottesystem.htm)).

The "Raven" UAS Drone has been in service since 2008/09, 9 with the Army, 2 with the Jægerkorps and one with the Frømandskorps (Danish SEALs).

I am not certain that the game engine figures in personal body armour, but the DANCON has a pretty good one, so if it does it should be figured in.

From 2009/10 the Eagle Is of the LOPESK has been gradually replaced by Eagle IVs carrying only 3 men, much to the dismay of the users. 1. LOPESK started training with them in 2009 and is, I believe, currently deployed with them in Helman.

The Diemaco LSW is replacing the good old MG3, much to the dismay of the troops on the ground and there is talk of replacing it with a better one. I will have to look into whether the Minimi or MG4 will replace it or even if it will, but the troops are not happy with the LSW and prefer to bring the MG3. problem is that they are wearing out after years of faithful service.

I have seen videos of the Milkor MGL32 in action with DANCON in Afghanistan, but been unable to determine whether it is an "official purchase" or a loan from another unit in Camp Bastion that has them, such can happen in wars.

The Jæger Patrols were a bit more versatile in weaponry than depicted, largely because they have a wider range of weapons to chose from. Patrols of 5 men used C7/C8 as their main weapon- some with m203s, H & K MSG90 for sniping and H & K 23E- H & K 21E and Diemaco LSW for LSW. They also use the MG3 and the MP5. For anti-material, they experiemnted with the M82, but found the Accuracy International AW 50 more precise at longer ranges. These days they also use the Sako TRG 42 .338 Lapua Magnum for sniping. Like the rest of the Army they used Carl Gustaf against armour, fortifications, etc. if needed, but this has largely been replaced with the AT4. For opening soft doors they use either a Mossberg500 or a small explosive charge, and all Patrols has an explosives expert in it- and often several Claymores.

I do not know when they got Night Vision- All Weather goggles, but long before anyone else, my guess would be from 1990 at the latest. I saw some around then and was impressed.

I dunno how much and how this can be included.

The original Jæger Patrol was 5 men during the cold war. but since 2002 it has gradually been growing to ~8 from 2005 to be able to solve the different challenges of Afghanistan and Iraq. It has no fixed number available to the public, but I know that Patrols of 8 has been employed in both Iraq and Afghanistan.


Hope this brief summary helps.

[DRG]

Info on what makes up a "Light Reconaissance Squadron", when it entered the TO&E and if it's composition has changed since it was first used as a formation would be helpful as would details on what a "Light Reconaissance Platoon" would comprise of

Don

[Palle]

I shall see what I can do.

A brief summary from memory of 1. LOPESK as described in Lars Ulslev Johansen's "De Danske Tigre", Lars commanded 1. LOPESK at Musa Qala, 2006.

Commander in Eagle I
Second in Command in Eagle I
Forward Air Observer(s) in GD

1st Platoon in 7 Eagle 1
2nd Platoon in GD (I think GD27)
3rd Platoon in Eagle 1

Each pltaoon had a Piranha ambulance as well I believe and the staff segment included a logistical and maintenance section as well as a doctor. I will have to search for their vehicles and exact composition. I also have to check how many men each vehicle held and whether they had any infantry squads integrated. I believe they did/do.

Today the Eagle Is would be Eagle IVs and the GD27s would be GD270 CDI or28s, both are better armed and armoured.


Edited to add that 1. LOPESK is slightly reinforced compared to the other LOPESKs, I have to check their TO & E as well.

[Palle]

And it seems that the LOPESK also have 30 Toyota Landcruisers available, rebuilt and armoured to withstand small arms fire, mines and IEDs but still looking civilian and thus making it easier to get the populace to feel closer to the guys. I am unaware where they are deployed, but I would expect Afghanistan.

It should also be added that all DANCON personel are professional soldiers and train for a year or more before being sent, and that many go for more than one tour down there. They are, in effect, the elite of the Danish army, especially the LOPESKs, I would consider giving them the appropriate morale bonus, whatever that would be. I would say 5.

[croach]

While we're on this:
1. The M41-DK1 (unit number 004) icon (icon number 365) has a M24 hull.
2. Several of the Danish Centurion Mk 5s (units 006, 015, 016,017,018) have the Centurion Mk 2 icon.

[DRG]

There will be a new version of the M41-DK1 in the next upgrade

Don

[Palle]

Sorry to have been so slow. I lost my beloved ferret in the meantime, and the information one can track down is contradictory, fragmentary and, not too detailed.

I will try and write the Danish army or the commander of 1. LOPESK at Musa Qalah on Facebook.

[Palle]

While trying to reconstruct the 1. LOPESK as well as I can (to be modified when I get the proper intel from its sources), I ran into a problem. There core of 1. LOPESK (and any, 1st is merely stronger) consists of

-Cmdr in MOWAG Eagle IV
-SiC in GD G270 CDI
-1st Platoon in MOWAG Eagles
-2nd Platoon in GD G270 CDI
-3rd Platoon in MOWAG Eagles
-Additional units (those are the ones I have trouble pinning down what is except that they have a Piranha ambulance).

Each Platoon consists of a commander with two others in a vehicle and three groups each of two vehicles with 6 men/women (Anika Pedersen "Combat Barbie" was rather popular with the Brits in MQ) shared between them. They can function mounted or dismounted and the MGs can be disattached from the vehicles (especially the LSW and LMG of the GD G270 CDI are easy) to be put in emplacements (as in MQ) or carried on foot patrol.

This organisation seems to not be possible to dublicate in the SPMBT engine where a Grp/Sec can only be one unit, so when I try to create a Scout/Recon Platoon it cannot encompass the Sections as they are, for they have four subunits in them and if I work around that by making the Platoons = Company, I cannot create 1. LOPESK as a Cmp cannot be part of a Cmp.

What can be done about that?

And how to model the fact that the guys can work mounted, with two from each vehicle dismounted (securing the vehicles) or all three dismounted and with weapons disattached to be put in emplacements like at MQ?

[Mobhack]

1) Ambulances are entirely irrelevant for game purposes. Ditto any logistical vehicles - unless you want ammo carriers, but the AI does not use these, so your formation would then have to be human-only if it included them. Therefore - best to let the human decide to add an ammo section from misc section, should he desire one.

2) There is no way to model vehicle crew and weapons that are mountable/dis-mountable. The crew and attached weapons stay with the vehicle.
(Making sections 1 more - assuming the vehicle commander dismounts with the section, is allowed. e.g. vehicle crew is 'nominally' 3 and section is 5 - could be modelled with 2 crew APC and 6 man section).

You'll probably have to split the platoon into an A part and a B part. Part A will be a platoon (Officer commanding) and part B a section (Sgt Commanding) the other half-platoon.

Part A: (officers party)
Pl Cdr (if you have as a dismount) - Could be a 2 man FO team (use a unit type not used in the OOB)
Pl Cdr vehicle
3 x dismounts (4)
3 x vehicles

Part B: (Sgts party)
3 x dismounts (4)
3 x vehicles

Spare slots - if you want to break 4 man teams down further (sniper etc?)

If being creative - or your org allows it - a 4 man team may be an EOD specialist (engineer unit type). Useful in Afghanistan.

Company:

CHQ - vehicle (dismount too small to bother with?)
- #2 vehicle - AOP vehicle (a platoon formation so he can buzz about separately. So could be a vehicle (possibly FO vehicle) + foot FOO)
- Part A, #1 platoon
- Part B, #1 Platoon
- Part A, #2 Platoon
- Part B, #2 Platoon
- Part A, #3 platoon
- Part B, #3 Platoon

looks like 8 slots - 2 left for any attached support elements. (Or, leave that to individuals to buy and X-attach if desired, if not a regular pattern)

You could split each platoon into A(officer=pl, 3 veh + dismounts),B (sec of 2 veh + dismounts) , and C (sec of 2 veh + dismounts) parts if you restricted the coy HQ to just one vehicle (a FO vehicle say)? 9 slots for platoon parts, one for the CHQ veh. In this case - any attached support sections to the coy would have to be manually x-attached (no bad thing really - I don't always want, say the ATGM section an OOB designer adds onto his mixed formation).

NB - the advantage of splitting into officer and sgts part-platoons is that the officer/sgt each only have half the large number of small elements of a platoon to rally if things go pear shaped.. :)! (and part platoons can operate over a larger frontage). Better Command and control than a single lump, anyway. The 3 separate little sections version is even better for spreading about the map, and rallying.

Andy

[Palle]

The Danish army also no longer use the PNMK M/92 DK since 2005 when they started being phased out.

[Mobhack]

The Danish army also no longer use the PNMK M/92 DK since 2005 when they started being phased out.

Looking at this one - why do Denmark have the CV9035 as an SP gun class 39, like 106 RCL Jeeps.

(The SP gun one will not protect passengers like the APC does, any so loaded grunts will be wiped off it by HE or MG fires like any other tank rider). Same goes for the PNMK M/92 methinks!

They should have both 0 carry, or be in own formations with a different unit class, more likely. Do they actually carry any dismounts when being 'SP ATG' in any case? Are these AFV actually used as replacements for 106 RCL Jeeps in some Danish units, or used in some other way?


Andy

[Palle]

And not the Leo 1 at all since 1st Dec 2004 This (http://danskpanser.dk/Artikler/Sidste_skydning_med_Leopard1.htm) article (in Danish) relates of the last day on the shooting range with the Leo 1. As far as I can determine their use as recon tanks has ended in 1999 or 2000.

PS. Can I get an allowance to edit for more than 30 mins? Caves on posts as I come across new material.

[Palle]

The Danish army also no longer use the PNMK M/92 DK since 2005 when they started being phased out.

Looking at this one - why do Denmark have the CV9035 as an SP gun class 39, like 106 RCL Jeeps.

(The SP gun one will not protect passengers like the APC does, any so loaded grunts will be wiped off it by HE or MG fires like any other tank rider). Same goes for the PNMK M/92 methinks!

They should have both 0 carry, or be in own formations with a different unit class, more likely. Do they actually carry any dismounts when being 'SP ATG' in any case? Are these AFV actually used as replacements for 106 RCL Jeeps in some Danish units, or used in some other way?


Andy


The CV9035 is used (for now only in 1st Cmp- 1st Bat- Royal Life Guard; deployed to Helmand) as a replacement for the M113 as an APC. That is like an IFV. It can only carry 7 men and for that reason the squads of that Cmp has been changed to only 6 men.

Have you seen my other quibbles?

[DRG]

This is all being recorded and will be investigated when we start work on the next patch but before you go any further it might be an idea to look at how other units are put into formations in the game so we don't end up with more references to ambulances or formations that stray outside of the accepted parameters of the game.

Don

[Palle]

Thanks for the confidence...

I already have. I mucked about with OOBs quite a lot. The point was that they might have several Piranhas and usually a command-communications truck as well. And as a historian I want accurate depictions; I sort of have to ;-)

I tried the suggestion outlined above (and still have had no reply from the sources themselves), it sort of works works. But with my background I believe it should not be made official until I know more of the additional units and the difference between 1. LOPESK and the other LOPESKs.

[DRG]

The best way for you to do this is to build the units and formations you want added in a separate copy of the Danish OOB then test that it works and doesn't contain support units we don't bother modeling into the game then post it here and we'll DL it, look it over and if it works for us we'll cut and paste them into the master OOB.

Don

[Palle]

Will try Don, will try ;-)

Though my prime motivation is accuracy. I thought (lazily), to do the research, then let you guys do the work. But I am glad to help as much as I can.

There is one thing I cannot do- or have not tried. Adding picks. Cause the "Archer" SP Gun is not included in any OB yet I cannot steal its pic and use for the expected arrival of that splendid Weapons System. In that respect I am probably too dense to even follow instructions (cause it includes modifying pics before adding right?). So there is a task for you. But then, it should be in the Swedish OOB anyway. I have also had to improvise and use the nearest approximate for the Eagle IV and GD G270 (Eagle I and German Wolf Utility Vehicle respectively). The GD G270's LSW is also mounted facing rearwards; how to model that?

[Mobhack]

Will try Don, will try ;-)

Though my prime motivation is accuracy. I thought (lazily), to do the research, then let you guys do the work. But I am glad to help as much as I can.

There is one thing I cannot do- or have not tried. Adding picks. Cause the "Archer" SP Gun is not included in any OB yet I cannot steal its pic and use for the expected arrival of that splendid Weapons System. In that respect I am probably too dense to even follow instructions (cause it includes modifying pics before adding right?). So there is a task for you. But then, it should be in the Swedish OOB anyway. I have also had to improvise and use the nearest approximate for the Eagle IV and GD G270 (Eagle I and German Wolf Utility Vehicle respectively). The GD G270's LSW is also mounted facing rearwards; how to model that?

Archer as in modern SP arty? - see Swedish unit #416 BW L52 Archer.

(There is also the WW2 archer SP-AT, in Jordan OOB amongst others)

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

I've already put the Archer SP arty into the Danish OOB for 2013. If you have a better date let me know. I've put in a new Archer pic as well

Don

[Palle]

I may not have the latest version of the game ATM. How do I transfer my modded OoBs to a new version? I am not too keen on starting all over.

Thanks for your responsiveness.

[Mobhack]

I may not have the latest version of the game ATM. How do I transfer my modded OoBs to a new version? I am not too keen on starting all over.

Thanks for your responsiveness.

Manually re-editing is likely to be your only solution. Especially if 'your' units, weapons and formations were overwrites of the existing line items in the OOB rather than new stuff placed in free lines, leaving the stock lines unchanged.

Or, you can simply ignore the updates and continue to develop your own OOB as a stand-alone development thread of its own (using the OOB swapper utility of course if playing PBEM). In that case, you may want to check whatever was done in the new stock OOB, perhaps.

If you wrote a new AI pick list then you are of course completely on your own. (This may not matter if your new OOB is for human only usage).

Maintenance of any third party edited OOBs is in any case entirely up to that person, not us.

cheers
Andy

[Palle]

Hey Andy, you are fast as usual.

I have largely put in new lines to remedy the various holes in the Danish OoB, but I believe that there are a few where I have corrected mistakes as well. I cannot recall. And I am too inept to do more than that, but that I can and has done. How much of my numerous quibbles did you include?

And, correct me if I am wrong, if I want the various new units you guys have added, the Archer for example, I have to update to next version and redo manually?

Again, thanks for being responsive to quibbles.

[Mobhack]

The only answer would be - look at the new release whenever it arrives, and see what needs doing.

Andy

[Pibwl]

My 3 cents:

008 M4A3-E4 Sherman - according to US naming, M4A3E4

009 Humber Scout - better quality picture is 23592. It might be worth considering to create new icon - current is Daimler Scout Car (Humber had closed, asymetrical roof). Same for unit 213

(BTW: is there a way to see icons apart from Mobhack?)

110 Bell 47D - correct pic is 9006 (current is Alouette). It should have rather carry=2.

111 Agusta 47J - correct pic is 34902 (current is Alouette). It should have rather carry=3.

Regards
Michal

[Palle]

I have now upgraded and to my satisfaction I notice that you have listened to my various quibbles. Thanks.

There are some still though at first sight.

-All Danes in Afghanistan are equipped with NV & PRR, I do not know about the radio rating of the PRR, but should they not all have either 30 or 40 in Vision? I have created a variant of standard Danish units to reflect it called "DANCON XXXX" (XXXX being the Engineer, Scout, Inf, mmg, Etc.) and at a highr price.
-The m95 Rifle is being phased out and exchanged with the better m08, beginning with parts of the DANCON in 2008. Then more and more. I think I saw on the Army's # at Youtube that even more will get it next year.
-Danish snipers use the Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum, the Jægers use the H&K MSG90, Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum or the AW50 as they please.
-Some Danish Engineers have m82 AntiMaterial Rifles for detonating Mines.
-The CV9035 IKK is an IFV (IKK = IFV), I see it only as a support unit in game while the mentioned Life Guard unit and apparently their equivalent in the Guards Hussars (the guys in Armadillo drive them), uses them as APCs.
-The squads of the mentioned units have been changed to 6-man size to enable the CV9035 to carry them. It might be 7, I will have to look into it a bit more.

All this is not reflected in the game (yet), I will look if there is more.

Apart from that I am pleased to see you listening to helpfull corrections.

Thanks.

[DRG]

I'll add this to the list and look at it when or if I get to it before March

Don

[Palle]

Thanks Don, GJ you guys are doing.

I also believe that the forces of the LOPESKs, should have a morale modifier as they are all well-motivated professional soldiers. Possibly all DANCON , a 3 or so.

[Palle]

Our Colt Canada C8IUR rifle is not, as first assumed from its time of purchase, named M08, but M/10, though it was officially used in DANCON ISAF from 2009 and I have seen vids of it in use in DANCON ISAF since 2008.

[Palle]

Oh you already gave them a 10, well... they did do quite well in Musa Quala. But 10 is almost Foreign Legion and equal to Marines... though come to think of it the Marines I have spoken to all have great respect for their Danish Allies. That would warrant a 5 for the rest of DANCON then. But I would say that it should probably rather be 5 and 3 or something like that. The Danish training is very different from Boot Camp, and though physical fitness and toughness are important our training focuses more on individual initiative and education so to speak. All the times I have been part of the Danish military we prided ourselves that our most important "weapon" was our heads and our ability to think for ourselves when the situation called for it.

More tomorrow.

[DRG]

I found this when I loaded up my list and dealt with it but felt the need to comment so we don't go through this again......







-The m95 Rifle is being phased out and exchanged with the better m08, beginning with parts of the DANCON in 2008. Then more and more. I think I saw on the Army's # at Youtube that even more will get it next year.



The "m95" already gets the highest rating for an infantry rifle and I am not adding a duplicate with another name then building a whole new set of infantry units to carry it. What it may be renamed to is simply "5.56 Rifle" because the micro detail naming of rifles etc that a lot of people would like is really getting old. A rifle is a rifle is a rifle unless it has optics then it gets that rating and all those with the optics rating ( acc=6 ) do the same job no matter what they are named and we already have over 35,000 units in this game to keep track of




-Danish snipers use the Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum, the Jægers use the H&K MSG90, Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum or the AW50 as they please.



The existing Heavy sniper rifle already has the highest hvy sniper rifle rating and one is good enough..see above





-Some Danish Engineers have m82 Anti Material Rifles for detonating Mines.

and the game code still needs to be fixed to make that work and when it does it will still only be snipers classed units who can do this so next release buy a heavy sniper for your engineers





-The CV9035 IKK is an IFV (IKK = IFV), I see it only as a support unit in game while the mentioned Life Guard unit and apparently their equivalent in the Guards Hussars (the guys in Armadillo drive them), uses them as APCs..


REALLY ?? You don't see formations 206, 207 and 208 that use that vehicle as a APC/IFV ?? Or perhaps the "problem" here is you hung up on the unit class name being "support" It's named "support APC" because we cannot name all APC/IFV classes simply "APC" or "IFV" and , "light support" , is just a name as well. That's an APC/IFV clone class and that's what it's being used for with those formations so your assumption it's not being used is incorrect. We could have used the "Hvy APC" class for that unit but it's irrelevant.. they both do the same job in the game


Don

[Palle]

I also discovered that our LSV M04 LSW is being exchanged for the Minimi instead. Though the most popular LMG with the troops are still the good old workhorse MG62. Basically the LSW is useless as support weapon.

For anybody with an interest in DANCON ISAF, here is the OoB of the Combat Command:


Commander (Colonel) and SiC/CoS (Lietenant-Colonel)
Staff and Logistics Company with lorries, MRAP Cougars, Piranhas, etc.. As well as medical personnel in ambulances, mechanics, workshop etc. Only the vehicles would figure in game, likely as APCs + ammo truck or carrier.
Fire Support Element; basically Forward Observers. Including Raven UAVs since 2008.
One M/10 120mm mortar from June 2010.
Engineer Detachment "IGDET", probably 3 groups One combat, one construction, one mixed. Though they can all solve all tasks, the group operating from the Patrol Base Line, leading patrols and sweeping for IEDs has little to do but fight. The Engineers also has two mineploughs (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk131/HEIPED1974/isaf11_mineplove_01_b.jpg) and some Minerollers down there.
Electronic Surveillance and recon unit that basically listens in on enemy mobile phones, etc.. From what I have seen and heard, they are VERY competent, but they can hardly figure in the game.
Signals Unit.
Training unit for ANA and ANP.
Armoured Infantry Company employing CV90 IKK (CV9035)
Mechanised Infantry Company in M113 APCs or Piranha IIIs.
Leopard Squad with 3 Leo 2AF active and one in reserve if one breaks down.
Military Police, I have been unable to track down how many (they seem to have little to do), but my guess would be two to three groups.
Civilian-Military coorperation unit.
Occasionally an unknown number of Jæger Patrols.
A Home Guard Platoon guarding the camp June - August to free up combat personnel during summer leave.
Various undisclosed specialists.

Under the command of the Danish Battalion is also a company of Gurkha rifles and ... I forgot the other British company.


Red Signifies that they are in game.


The Logistics Company operating from Camp Bastion also has 40 MRAP 6x6 Cougars that we have rented from the US and equipped with IR and a 12.7 mg. The first 20 arrived March 2011.

The LOPKESKs operates out of Camp Bastion as well and as far as I can determine, they take turns to be deployed.

From August 2009, the GD G270CDI has been exchanged for the AM General HMMWV M1045A2 Recon, known to Danes as the Jûlkat, in the Danish LOPESKs. Who has now upgraded to 8 man groups with 4 men in each Jûlkat.


The MLRS M270 has been phased out in 2008.

Danish ISAF troops are exchanged in Feb and July every year.

Let Opklaringseskadron is in fact abbrieved LOPKESK, not as I initially stated, LOPESK.

We may have had no 120 mm mortars for some years until it was decided to buy and deploy the 120mm M/10 TMT.


More to follow as I dig it out.

[Palle]

The coulour scheme did not work very well, did it?

Between 50 and 80% of Danish troops in Afghanistan are veterans of at least one tour already.

[Palle]

The "m95" already gets the highest rating for an infantry rifle and I am not adding a duplicate with another name then building a whole new set of infantry units to carry it. What it may be renamed to is simply "5.56 Rifle" because the micro detail naming of rifles etc that a lot of people would like is really getting old. A rifle is a rifle is a rifle unless it has optics then it gets that rating and all those with the optics rating ( acc=6 ) do the same job no matter what they are named and we already have over 35,000 units in this game to keep track of

Fair enough, and it does sound like a good idea to just rename them "NATO 5.55 Rifle" or something along those lines for all the NATO nations that does not use their own version (SA-80, FAMAS, G-36, ETC).




The existing Heavy sniper rifle already has the highest hvy sniper rifle rating and one is good enough..see above

The Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum is already in the game as far as I can determine, the Finnish 8.6mm TKIV, and if there are any AW50s in Denmark they are used by the Jægers.



and the game code still needs to be fixed to make that work and when it does it will still only be snipers classed units who can do this so next release buy a heavy sniper for your engineers


Fair enough too.



REALLY ?? You don't see formations 206, 207 and 208 that use that vehicle as a APC/IFV ?? Or perhaps the "problem" here is you hung up on the unit class name being "support" It's named "support APC" because we cannot name all APC/IFV classes simply "APC" or "IFV" and , "light support" , is just a name as well. That's an APC/IFV clone class and that's what it's being used for with those formations so your assumption it's not being used is incorrect. We could have used the "Hvy APC" class for that unit but it's irrelevant.. they both do the same job in the game


Don

[Palle]

A bit more on Danish snipers before bedtime.

In the regular Danish army the only Snipers operate in a two-man team using the SAKO TRG. They have the best NV we have and the first were ready for deployment in May 2006.

The Frogmen, Jægerkorps and SSR (Home Guard LRRP) has Snipers operating as part of their groups. Needless to say these have excellent NV also.

Some few normal rifle groups do as well, if deployed to DANCON or training for it, they too have excellent NV.

Before May that only the Jægerkorps and Frømænd had Snipers, they used the H&K MSG90 or occasionally the M82. The regular army infantry fielded no snipers (since 1988 at least, it may have been different before).

Meanwhile the Home Guard had 1-5 Snipers per Company operating alone or as part of groups (we were able to do both and were most often in Patrol Groups or SEP- the later SSR), Home Guard Snipers employed a special version of the G3 called M66, basically you could load it with your thumb; thus not making any noise, and it sometimes had a scope. We trained to 800 m. This started in 1966, what was there before I am unaware of, as I joined in 1988. And the last Sniper cause was held in Cph in 2002. Soon after, probably 2003, the Home Guard lost all snipers outside of SSR.

This does not fit the current To&E of Danish snipers, but I hope it helsp clarify things a bit. Feel free to ask if you have questions.

[Pibwl]

Unit 058 C15TA - better icon might be 2927 (BTR-40) or some other - now it has icon with turret (GM Otter?)

Michal

[DRG]

Unit 058 C15TA - better icon might be 2927 (BTR-40) or some other - now it has icon with turret (GM Otter?)

Michal

The Otter and C15TA are quite similar and have a lot more in common than either do with the BTR-40. That said I've been meaning to do this Icon for awhile becasue we need it for both games so it will be done now that I have proper drawings to work from

Don

[Palle]

Don, I have a question.

The Hv. Infantry. Are they representing the Danish Home Guard?

[DRG]

It represents an infantry unit carrying a 51mm mortar. If the Danish Home Guard was equipped with 51mm mortars as standard weaponry between 1946 and 1953 and were integrated into standard Infantry units then yes maybe it's the Danish Home Guard but if not it's simply a normal everyday (hvy)infantry unit that used that mortar until early 1953 and why the platoons and companies change in March 1953 after they are taken OOS

Don

[Mobhack]

And given the 10 hex range, it is likely a local name for ex-British 2 inch mortar.

And the main unit using it appears as one section in a platoon (formation 196, used in coy 195) - echoing the UK practice of issuing one per platoon HQ as a pyrotechnics discharger (smoke and illum) rather than as an HE chucker (2" HE being available but rarely issued in practice).

Andy

[Palle]

Ah, my wording was bad. I meant the Militia Hv. Infantry.

I ask because I have loads of experience in the Danish Home Guard and could probably make a more accurate TO & E if you want me to. Or at least provide a list that you can use for inspiration (you know my penchant for details that may be irrelevant for the game, so you do the sorting) or not. But it would require me to dig out all my old papers to confirm my foggy memories.

Actually, I will be pleased to do so. No other plans than relaxation tonight anyway and it will bring out fond memories of preparing for the WAPA to come for us.

[DRG]

Ah, my wording was bad. I meant the Militia Hv. Infantry.


Which is WHY we have a error reporting procedure posted and had that been followed I would have known which units and which formations you were referring to instead of guessing what you meant by "Hv" while I'm in the middle of sorting out issues with rocket launchers in 12 different OOB's.

If everyone would BE CLEAR AND CONCISE in reporting "issues" time ( I DO NOT have to spare in abundance ) would not be wasted "guessing".


Don

[Palle]

Well, as it is now, Formation 060 of the Danish OOB is a company of Infantry.

It consists of:
-One Unit 184 - Heavy Infantry Group (Militia)
-Three Formation 037 - Heavy Infantry Platoon, each again consisting of 3 Unit 186 - Heavy Infantry Group (Militia)

I assume this represents the 550 Danish Home Guard Companies spread all over. But the unit I served in in from 1988 till... well till now... is somewhat different. I shall try and elaborate a bit here. You may let yourself inspire as you see fit. The period I know best is the one from 1988 till about 2000. As my peak of activity was 1988 to 1997.

Let us start by establishing that The Danish Home Guard is a manyfacetted organisation and was so even more in the past, especially right after WWII when it was basically the Resistance continuing under another name. But I shall try and keep my description simple.

1. The Home Guard are volunteers serving because they have the will to defend their country; I shall never forget old Vagn who remembered 9th of April and was active with us young hotspurs exactly because of that as long as he could walk on every single maneuver. They are generally highly motivated, but have little actual experience as all training and learning is evening and weekends only; except special courses which usually takes a week. That being said every single Home Guard Company has a wide variety of soldiers; from old men unfit for anything but observation (one of the main tasks to young hotspurs and a lot of veterans of the Army (who will usually be mustered back to their regiments in case of war after a week or two with the Home Guard who musters before the actual Army).

2. The Home Guard at that time had more weapons available than depicted in Unit 190. We also often used m72 (66mm LAW), until about 2000 and every Home Guard Company had between 1 and 6 (mostly it was 2) M66 Sniper Rifles (a modified version of the G3).

3. The Home Guard harbours Engineers, Snipers (not just Marksmen, but proper snipers, trained to operate in the group (mostly), alone or as a team of 2; I was one for a few years after I stopped as a group leader, and working alone) and dogs. The assault effect mirrors the engineer and the dogs probably cannot be (they are quite far between anyway. Back then with more companies there were one in every fourth or so). There were at least one sniper in each company.

4. A standard Home Guard Company was organised as follows:
-Command Platoon; consisting of the Command Group, Signals Group, Supply Group and Support/food-supply Group.
- 1st Platoon, consisting of a command troop and 2-4 Grps (usually 2 in peacetime)
-2nd Platoon, same.
-Reserve, Men of 50+ would be in the reserve used only for guard duties and surveillance (except old Vagn), men of 60+ only for surveillance (except old Vagn). In case of war, these would be formed into groups and join the active parts of the Company. Taking the larger part of the responsibility for the Guard and Surveillance duties to free the more combat-ready groups for combat and help keeping them supplied.

5. The Company would have 4- 6 vans, either the Army's VW-Transporters or Civilian requested ones. My dad had volunteered all those of his carpentry firm in case of war.

6. Each infantry group would carry 5 x 20 shots for every G3, 500- 1000 shots for the LMG (MG3), 4 grenades for the Carl Gustav and one hand grenade each as standard. Group Leader would always have a radio.


Some companies would also have special units. My group of young and very dedicated men became a special Company-, then District- Response Group and we would sometimes be granted SEP status unofficially (hence without the cool gear), SEP was the Home Guard's Special Recon Force who worked with the LOPKESKs, Frømændskorpset and Jægerkorpset. Today SEP is called SSR. They worked independently, we worked through Company and district, but would be a patrol. Depending on tasks we would sometimes ditch the heavy Carl Gustav and bring an extra LMG or a couple of lighter m72 instead. The Sniper of 1st Platoon was also in my group and we trained at least 20 hours every week. And that is just an example.


Anyway. How would that be reflected in the game?

First I propose a +5 Morale and -5 Experience (unless that evens out?) to the Home Guard Units. Generally speaking, we were very well motivated indeed, but we lacked experience. Except SEP, who should probably have +5 in both.

Secondly, the Company would best be reflected in the following OOB:
- Command Section (FO like in the new LOPKESKs?)
- 2 Supply Canisters (if includable in the Comp, though I know Don does not want it), it should be canisters as we only had small arms ammo.
- 4 Lt trucks or even Technicals/vans from the Green/Red OOB.
- 2 crappy infantry groups of old men with G3s and LMGs, no Carl Gustav.
- MMG group.
- Possibly two Scout Groups, but they would have to be pulled from the two other platoons' manpower, taking an infantry section from one of those.

-1st Platoon Cmdr (FO)
- 1st Group, decent infantry on par with regular professional Danish army; with LMG and Carl Gustav. Possibly a Marksman as well.
- 2nd Group, Militia with LMG and Carl Gustav.
- 3rd Grp, crappy militia from the reserve and with no Carl Gustav, possibly m72 though. Used for guard duty of vital areas and Plt HQ.
-If no Marksman in 1st Group, add a sniper.

2nd Platoon is the same, except possibly with no decent group, usually a sniper there as well.

It is now 04.00 I will experiment a bit tomorrow to see what is possible. Whatever you wish to include (even if it is none), will make me happier. It looks a bit more like the varied service I know so well. Though it has changed again with the regular army spending all its energy in Helmand. The Home Guard has actually taken over the real local defence now (whereas before we would guard the army's mobilisation, survey and observe and parts of us would be making pinpricks against an expected massive WAPA invasion, then start partisan actions if overrolled, and a number of companies have been changed to and trained as Motorised Infantry.

Thanks for your time Don, sorry to be so convoluted. I hope it is at least clear what units I am talking about in the first place.

[Firestorm]

Wow, thanks for this thread, Palle. Denmark does indeed have an impressive and under-appreciated military.

Some of the information is irrelevant to the game itself, but I'm currently writing a story that includes several characters in the Danish military, so if you don't mind, I'd like to keep you on call.

Regarding old equipment still on the buy lists: I always thought that represented a nation's war stores-- stuff they've officially phased out, but still keep in storage in the event that something bad happens. Many nations keep equipment from the last decade or so in mothballs just in case it's ever needed*, those with lots of available space will keep them even longer, and uber-packrats like the Russians and Israelis probably still have leftovers from the Second World War.

The United States military didn't get rid of it's last M-1903 Springfields until the Cold War ended. Wouldn't surprise me if there was still a crate of them left and forgotten in some government building out on the barren prairies of North Dakota.

*or perhaps because such weaponry is still too dangerous to sell, too valuable to scrap and too old to use

[Palle]

The Danes that have decided to be soldiers have always been good at it. WWII was a disgrace to many (the ignorants who did not know the political situation in the 30-ies here), yet the most decorated foreigner in English service during that disgrace was Danish SBS member Anders Lassen.

Anyways, many saw 9th of April as a disgrace and despite various socialist opposition and NATO Footnotes, the core of the Danish Military after WWII was highly motivated and professional. Many civilians looked down on us a bit and thought that a Defence was a waste of time and money, including some politicians. Though our colleagues in other NATO countries knew better. They still had to wonder why the pascifist, lazy and often critical Danish draftees would consistently do well in maneuvres, etc..

And in "Operation Bøllebank" everybody's eyes were suddenly opened to the fact that we have a highly competent military. The secret is the general high level of education and encouragement of independent thinking permeating Danish society; including the army. It is the way we are, we think for ourselves, and the armed forces have conveniently adapted the German WWII doctrine that every one knows the plan and can carry it out and everyone is encouraged to think for themselves to actually solve their tasks. The armed forces have had to, for that is how Danes are, so best exploit that trait. We often used to joke that the points of the Chevrons pointed at the most important weapon of that nation's armed forces; the Danish ones pointed up- towards the head, most others' pointed down- towards the feet.

I rant, but I like our military.

One that usually does not mothball equipment, but sells it back to the original producer, BTW. There is very little old equipment lying around here.

Anyway, feel free to catch me here or on FB (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001474590866); I tend to sometimes disappear from game fora for months. And I have the redoubtable Lars R. Møller on my friends list as well as Lars Ulslev Johannesen, who led 1st LOPKESK in Musa Quala.

[Palle]

I fiddled a bit with it and eventually created a new Company.

-FO Team 385 Commander
-Lt Truck/2 1123
-Lt Truck/2 1123
-HJV Reserve Grp - (new unit, see below)
-HJV Reserve Grp - (new unit, see below)
-M62 MMG Section 301
-HJV Platoon a - (new unit, see below)
-HJV Platoon b - (new unit see below)

>Available 1/49 to 12-120 (The Home Guard proper was only formed and organised into companies in 1949).

-----------------
HJV Platoon a
-FO Team 385
-HJV Ptrl (New Unit, see below)
-HV Infantry Group 190
-HJV Reserve

--------------------
HJV Platoon b
-FO Team 385
-Sniper 370
-HV Infantry Group 190
-HJV Reserve

Both these platoons are available from 1-79 to 12-100.

----------------------

*HJV Reserve Group
Basically a HV Infantry Group 190 with no Carl Gustav and only 10 hand grenades (as that was our allotment). In order to reflect their reserve status and distinguish them from the Units 184- 191 in the pick list I have classed them as 75 - Irregulars.
>Available 1 of 79 to 12 of 110.

*HJV Patrol
Basically a 5 man patrol reflecting the Scouting-Commando and Special Response Teams of the Home Guard, it does not really capture both. But it is my best bid. Even SEP is not the Jægerkorps, so the Jæger patrols cannot reflect them adequately. Hence this new one.
>Available 1-79 to 12-100
Cost 30, Crew 5, LBM 98, Speed 6, Radio 70, Vision 10 (could be 0 but some of us bought NV ourselves).
Weapon 9 - M75, 11 - M62 LMG, M72 LAW (2 shots), Sniper Rifle (50 shots, the M66 is an improved version of the M75 and our snipers carried 100 shots like the rest of us).
Classification 85 Light Commandos.

[Palle]

Time to fiddle with a campaign where the Glasnost and Perestrojka fail and the Polish strikes lead to Soviet intervention and WWII I think.

[Palle]

just did a test autumn 1988 Danish Delay vs Polish Advance with 1150 Pts for the Danes (which they spent on a HJV Cmp and Inf Cmp, 2 120mm mortars, 2 ammo canisters and a Centurion 5 TD). Worked fine and almost exactly as expected, and ended in a Draw.

Going to start making maps for a Campaign...

[DRG]

Integrating a FO into every company ( or platoon !! ) needlessly increases the cost of the company which is why we don't do that except in very rare cases with specialist units and leave buying FO to the player. This should be obvious simply by looking at how other coys in the game are constructed.

And "Supply Canisters " ??? give me a break.

If you want to build a formation based on existing game reality and submit it as a potential addition to the Danish OOB then build one and post it as an R&D OOB I'll look at it and see if I can use some of it. Otherwise the only thing that's going to change in that formation is the start date.


Don

[Palle]

Thanks for the positive response Don.

As for the cannisters, historically they should be there as Home Guard Companies were self-supplied, independent units covering 5- 200 square Km and supposed to go to ground and wage guerrilla after we were overrolled by the WAPA.

That being said, if you look at my final proposal you will notice a marked lack of ammo containers. They add nothing to the game as such.

Point taken about the FOs, they were the only way I could think off to mirror a 2-3 man command group of a Platoon. The Plt Cmdr never had a group in the Danish Home Guard. The Comp Cmdr could have a group of ineffective staff aides with SMGs. HJV Reserve could reflect that. But the Plt Commander operated with only his Second and/or a single soldier for guarding his back.

Perhaps Scouts would do as commander instead.

The thing is that HG companies were stretched thin with regards to manpower and heavy arms, and if the game wants to reflect that we cannot have lots of heavily armed infantry units. Each Company would have 2-4 Carl Gustav and an unspecified number of LAWs, one handgrenade for each man, a few satchel charges and C4 blocks. The only thing we had in abundance was 7.62 ammo.


Hence my proposal. I will alter it a bit and chuck it over at R&D, then give you the break you ask for.


The Home Guard was only organised in 1949, from 1945 till then, what became the Home Guard was called "Hjemmeværnsforeninger", which probably translates best into Home Guard Coorperations. These consisted of the old Resistance fighters refusing to lay down their arms and were somewhat anarchistic, best way to include them would probably be irregulars. They were armed largely with SMGs, Pistols and Hand Grenades as these had been the weapons of the Resistance movement.


I have a question about game mechanics though;
The Home Guard's primary task were surveillance and guard. We would survey the local area (especially the Seniors) and guard both the regular army's muster and vital installations.
Secondarily we would attack special forces being inserted in our area as we had a VERY short response time and when the invasion would pour up through Jutland we would make pinprick attacks to slow it down and inflict losses while minimising our own loss and buy time for reinforcements and a counterattack to be organised.

If overrolled we would attack supply lines, vital installations, key personnel, etc. while still minimising our own losses. Pinpricks and disappear.

Can such a tactic be implemented in game? Can units attack then retreat and hide or go off map to reflect us going to ground or chinging back into civilian clothing?

I may have missed something somewhere and if so I apologise, but I seem to not have found it.


On a different note, I seem to recall that our 203 mm Howizers are discontinued in 1966 in game (I am on my laptop away from my game, thus I have to go on memory and cannot recall the unit #). But looking at my various sources, lists, etc. I see 12 of them noted as being still in service in 1990.

[Hviid]

Don, I agree.<?xml:nam
<O:p</O:p
There aren’t any Danish units, regular army or second rate home guard having specialized FO within the units. <O:p</O:p
True, regular army NCO’s and officers are taught to call artillery (they don’t have any specialized materiel for this), but the game already reflects this. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
I have the following corrections to the existing Danish OOB, regarding the regular army.<O:p</O:p
The majority of the corrections is the fact that there are only three units (squads or tanks within a platoon).<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 005, Unit/Formation 2 should be a new Formation 049 (Medium Mortar Platoon) and in the period 1992 – 2004 Formation 014.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 006, add unit 099 – see below for further regarding mortars.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 007, Unit/Formation 009 (RCL sec), only until 1985.<O:p</O:p
The same goes for unit 273.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 014, exists only until 2004. (http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m113a2.htm (http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m113a2.htm))<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 036, only three squads (Unit 253) and one light mortar team (see the last paragraph)..<O:p</O:p
A bit tricky though, since the light mortar was a part of the third squad (like unit 348).<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Unit 260, only until 2004. From 2005 there have only been 6 men in a regular infantry squad, in order to be able to fit within the CV90. For ease of training and doctrine all infantry units, regardless of transportation have been changed to 6 men. As units 426-428.
<O:p</O:p
New unit (429?) with weapon 30 (Carl Gustaf) instead of weapon 23 (PVV M/97).<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
(Weapon 023 PVV M/97 – correct term PVV M/94).
<O:p</O:p
I see you have made the correct changes for unit 296, since our engineers use the same for training and doctrine reasons. This should start from 2005. Unit 294 should stop in 2004.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 038 and unit 158, only exits until 2004. (http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m270.htm (http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m270.htm))<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 039, only three squads (unit 350), one light mortar team and three APC (unit 73).<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 040, only three engineers squads (probably 1 x 288 and 2 x 289 – I’m not sure of the exact configuration in the early days, but since the 70’s the three squads have been organized the same).<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 043, Heavy Mortar has been out between 12/2004 and 1/2011.<O:p</O:p
The heavy mortar platoon consists of 4 x unit 104. Only used at battalion level.<O:p</O:p
(http://www.artilleriet.dk/Morter/ (http://www.artilleriet.dk/Morter/))<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 049, consists of only three x SP Mortar and only until 7/2006.<O:p</O:p
Unit 031 only until 7/2006.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 100, see formation 005 regarding mortars.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 101, only three squads and APC’s.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 199, see formation 007 regarding AT gun sec.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 196, 198 and 200. Only three squads in a platoon. I don’t know if the + marker means it’s a reinforced platoon – then it’s of course ok.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 207, again only three squads and APCs in the platoon.<O:p</O:p
Two new formations could be made up here. Very often CV90 (called IKK in Danish) platoons is made up as 2+1 or 1+2, meaning two or one CV90 and one or two M113 in the platoon. This is partly economic reasons and partly space reasons – there really isn’t any room for assets (i.e. sniper and FOO) in the CV90.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 220, again only three squads and APCs.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Formation 301, 303, 305 and 311. There have never been more than three tanks within a Danish tank platoon.
Regarding 317, too long before my time – and I haven’t found any colleges knowing anything regarding tank destroyers.<O:p</O:p

New LAW team (unit 314?) with weapon 023, since 1995.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Unit 337 – never existed.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
New unit. USA unit 857, MRAP from 3/2011. (http://forsvaret.dk/HOK/Nyt%20og%20Presse/ISAF/Pages/20MRAPk%C3%B8ret%C3%B8jeroverdragestilstyrkeniAfgh anistan.aspx (http://forsvaret.dk/HOK/Nyt%20og%20Presse/ISAF/Pages/20MRAPk%C3%B8ret%C3%B8jeroverdragestilstyrkeniAfgh anistan.aspx)).<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Unit 092 – 097 Light Mortar exists until 1999, consisting of one 51mm and a two man crew. Used only within the platoon level, as a part of the third squad. This could of course operate independently, thus weaken the third squad. For game purpose, it’s probably not relevant, since the usually wasn’t that far away from the rest of the squad.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Coy level used the SP medium mortar (81mm) until 7/2006 where it were exchanged with a modern 60mm light mortar from 8/2006 (Spanish made). This isn’t SP.<O:p</O:p
The new and enhanced 60mm is just as god or even a bit better than the “old” 81mm.

The text in some of the links are in Danish - use google translator and/or just look at the dates:angel<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Write me, if you need more info.
Best regards.
Hviid<O:p</O:p

[Mobhack]

And you can simply buy ammo cannisters from the misc menu should you as a player desire them. Plus any requisite light trucks to move the things.

The AI cannot use them, and so if added to a stock formation - has wasted points. Ammo units are only ever to be added to human player only formations. (We used to have some e.g. SPA and SAM batteries like that - but may have removed these?).

Same with company HQs. A UK rifle company HQ really should be realised as a couple of land rover FFRs, and a little command group perhaps (if at all). But the AI would simply kamikaze any coy HQ soft MT provided by default. So rifle co HQS are realised as a plain rifle section. Specialist command groups advertise themselves as blindingly obvious 'kick me now!' items - so should not be used either. A human player might take steps to hide them - but the AI will not.

FOOS are expensive items, and quite simply if no real use to the AI (it may use an in LOS FOO if it happens to stumble on a target and it happens to survive, but it has no 'FOO plan' other than 'kamikaze me too'). Also - many human players will object to having a surfeit of compulsory extra FOs, being quite happy to buy maybe just the one, or being pure 'tread heads' who don't want no steenking artillery or (yech!) grunts :)!. (So the Norwegian tank coys have 2 of the things for 'doctrine' - but there is also a 'pure' tank coy for the AI, and sucj humans as don't want a fleet of FOOS).

A lot of what you are trying to do simply cannot be done in therms of the game engine, and especially the AI, limitations and/or practicalities. Or it forces human players to have stuff they consider 'optional extras'.

You can only escape off-map over your own baseline. Can be useful to save giving the enemy points for the destruction of the unit, or to save an experienced unit in a total rout.

Andy

[DRG]

It is a waste of everyones time and effort to submit OOB proposals that do not fit in with GAME REALITY and GAME REALITY is reflected in the existing unit and formation structure of the game and building an OOB that deviates from that formula will never be added to the game and will always be rejected so if you ( Palle ) build me an improved HV formation DO NOT try to re-invent the wheel. Suggestions like that usually come from players new to the game and don't understand how it works and the comment about the FO's reflects this....... EVERY x0 unit is a trained "FO". He won't be as good as a specialist but he can call arty so that fulfills his ability to call for arty so a specialist FO is NOT required.

Re Hviid's suggestions. These have been placed on the list and at some point in the next two months I will get to them and when I do there *may* be questions....or not but now they are the last item on a list that will be ( if nobody adds anything more.... ) at least 115 pages long when it's completed.


Don

[DRG]

On a different note, I seem to recall that our 203 mm Howizers are discontinued in 1966 in game (I am on my laptop away from my game, thus I have to go on memory and cannot recall the unit #). But looking at my various sources, lists, etc. I see 12 of them noted as being still in service in 1990.



When you do get a chance to open the game up you will discover that your memory is faulty and these guns ARE NOT out of service in the game in 1966 but stay in service until the end of 1998 and I would ask EVERYONE who reads this who might consider making OOB suggestions to PLEASE check the game BEFORE running to the forums and relying on your memory

Thank you

Don

[Palle]

Thanks again. I am a nitpicker for accuracy, bear with me. But I see your points and immediately conceeded the FO. Very good one about specialist units as HQs with a Kamikaze AI becoming targets for cunning players. That is one I had not considered.

I will have a look at the HJV Company again and see if there is a middle way reflecting more the reality.


Hviid, I already brought up the 6-men groups as the IKK can only carry 6 and I am pretty certain Don implemented it already. But to complicate matters the change is only in those units actually using the IKK. I am pretty certain Don stated earlier that he would keep 10 man groups and set the carry capacity to 10.



The MRAP:
The Logistics Company operating from Camp Bastion also has 40 MRAP 6x6 Cougars that we have rented from the US and equipped with IR and a 12.7 mg. The first 20 arrived March 2011.
From August 2009, the GD G270CDI has been exchanged for the AM General HMMWV M1045A2 Recon, known to Danes as the Jûlkat, in the Danish LOPESKs. Who has now upgraded to 8 man groups with 4 men in each Jûlkat.


The MLRS M270 has been phased out in 2008.

[DRG]

[SIZE=3]Write me, if you need more info.
Best regards.
Hviid<O:p</O:p


The following issues need clarification

????????? Formation 005, Unit/Formation 2 should be a new Formation 049 (Medium Mortar Platoon) and in the period 1992 – 2004 Formation 014.

????????? Formation 006, add unit 099 – see below for further regarding mortars....******unit 99 is THREE MORTARS. I do not believe a Danish rifle coy carries around three mortars


????????? This makes no sense whatsoever>> Formation 007, Unit/Formation 009 (RCL sec), only until 1985. ????? It does if its formation 15


????????? Formation 014, exists only until 2004. (http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m113a2.htm)---------- Really ?? So what about unit 069 - CV9035 DK - Available 01/105 to 12/120 ??? Drop that formation and that unit is orphaned

**** I have NO IDEA what "HAS BEEN OUT" means. ---------Formation 043, Heavy Mortar has been out between 12/2004 and 1/2011.


>>>>>>The heavy mortar platoon consists of 4 x unit 104. Only used at battalion level. ****** You need to learn to add up the number of mortars in a unit then the number of units in the formation and if you do you will find there are 4 mortars in that formation


????????? Formation 100, see formation 005 regarding mortars.****** we loop back to another issue that is unclear



Don

[Hviid]

Hi Don.
<?xml:nam<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
Thanks for your questions, made me to look over my remarks once more and thus I have been able to give you some more info – so here goes some long answers to short questions:).
<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
I have verified my information and found a god visual homepage. I had a bit of trouble finding some non-restricted info.<O:p</O:p
http://www.geocities.ws/johnny97dk/dansk/kampenhe.htm<O:p</O:p
Even though it isn’t an official site, the info is fairly correct regarding the period 1985 until 2004. See my notes regarding the charts.<O:p</O:p
The first chart is the tank squadron. Correct.<O:p</O:p
The second chart is the recce squadron. Correct.<O:p</O:p
The third chart is the light recce squadron. Correct.<O:p</O:p
The forth chart is the Mechanized Infantry Coy. Slightly incorrect – the platoons didn’t have a jeep.<O:p</O:p
The fifth chart is the Motorized Infantry Coy. The Infantry Coy was the same – just without own transportation. Slightly incorrect, the only had two 81mm Mortar teams/squads and the platoons didn’t have a jeep. <O:p</O:p
The sixth chart (Piranha Coy) Slightly incorrect – there wasn’t a forth platoon with M113 and the platoons didn’t have a jeep.<O:p</O:p
The seventh chart is the Artillery battery. Don’t know much about their organization, but six M109 is correct.<O:p</O:p
For all, the Medic squad and the Stinger squad are attached assets, not standard organization.

<O:p</O:p
Regarding formation 005.<O:p</O:p
The Mech Inf Coy consist of:
<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
1/1965 – 12/1984:<O:p</O:p
One HQ unit with one M113.<O:p</O:p
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),<O:p</O:p
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)), <O:p</O:p
One RCL Section (two jeeps with 106mm RCL – formation 015*).<O:p</O:p
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.

<O:p</O:p
1/1985 – 12/1991:<O:p</O:p
One HQ unit with one M113.<O:p</O:p
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),<O:p</O:p
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)), <O:p</O:p
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
1/1992 – 12/2004:<O:p</O:p
One HQ unit with one M113.<O:p</O:p
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),<O:p</O:p
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)), <O:p</O:p
One Support APC Section (two PNMK M/92 DK – formation 014).<O:p</O:p
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
1/2005 – 7/2006:<O:p</O:p
One HQ unit with one M113.<O:p</O:p
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),<O:p</O:p
One Medium Mortar Section (two squads with two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)).<O:p</O:p
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
8/2006 – until now:<O:p</O:p
One HQ unit with one M113.<O:p</O:p
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),<O:p</O:p
One Light Mortar Section (three 60mm Mortar and one M113).<O:p</O:p
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.
<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
I don’t know whatever the correct game term for M113 self propelled 81mm mortar carrier is M125A1 or M106 – I can’t really see any difference between those two.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
Regarding unit 032.<O:p</O:p
End date should be 7/2006.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
Regarding formation 006.<O:p</O:p
You’re correct – they only carried two 81mm Mortars. Unit 099 – 102 should be changed so it consists of two 81mm Mortars.<O:p</O:p
Additional, the end date for formation 006 should be 12/2004 or it could be kept for game reasons to reflect a Mech Inf Coy operating without its vehicles.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
Regarding Unit 100:<O:p</O:p
End date should be 12/1995.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
Regarding formation 007.<O:p</O:p
The self propelled RCL went out of service by the end of 1985.<O:p</O:p
So formation 015 should have end date 12/1985 as well. I oversaw that one.
<O:p</O:p
Regarding formation 015.<O:p</O:p
I can’t find any data showing we actually had unit 335 - I think you can delete it.<O:p</O:p
Unit 336 and 337 is correct. Start date 1/56 is correct.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
Regarding formation 014.<O:p</O:p
My first info is correct. It exists until 12/2004.<O:p</O:p
The CV9035DK (unit 069) was never mend to be and has never been used as a replacement for the PNMK M/92 DK.<O:p</O:p
The CV9035 DK has been used to form up Coy’s riding the CV9035 DK instead of M113.<O:p</O:p
Not as a replacement for M113 but just as a new type of a formation.
<O:p</O:p
Regarding unit 062 and 069.<O:p</O:p
We have only bought one type. There is a slight difference in armour thickness and survivability. I don’t know which one is the correct.
The start date is incorrect. The first ones were delivered in September 2007 and they wasn’t really operational (due to training and doctrine issues) until the beginning of 2010 (1/2010 for game purpose).

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
Regarding formation 43.<O:p</O:p
HAS BEEN OUT – meaning has been out of service between 12/2004 and 1/2011. <O:p</O:p
Sorry for my English :doh:

<O:p</O:pRegarding unit 104. <O:p</O:p
Ok – I see there is TWO mortars in that unit :D<O:p</O:p
Anyway, there should be four mortars within the heavy mortar platoon (unit 104 – 107).<O:p</O:p
Whatever it’s best for game reasons to make one formation with four 120mm mortar teams or one unit with four mortars I leave it up to you to decide :). I have never seen them split up in real life.

<O:p</O:p
Regarding formation 100.<O:p</O:p
The start date is correct. The end date should be 12/2010.<O:p</O:p
One HQ unit with one Piranha.<O:p</O:p
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three Piranhas),<O:p</O:p
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)).<O:p</O:p
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.

<O:p</O:p
We have stopped using the Piranhas as an Infantry APC. They are still in service as APC for engineers and in a lot of other various roles.

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
I’m a bit uncertain regarding facts before beginning of the 80’s when I entered service, but I’ll try to find some elderly colleagues who can enlighten me and back their memory up with evidence...

<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
I hope this have clarified things. Otherwise you’re welcome back:)<O:p</O:p

Hviid

[DRG]

We have stopped using the Piranhas as an Infantry APC. They are still in service as APC for engineers and in a lot of other various roles.




If not Piranhas........what's being used as an APC..... the 113's ??

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
The following should help. First is the Royal Danish Army homepage equipment section with names in English, click on pictures for further info, some of the characteristics you can make out and translator will work faster here. Other refs from Danish site as well and is fully in line and supported by the RDA site. A new tracked vehicle is supposed to replace the M113 and PIRANIA II and IIIs with a decision to be made this year on the replacement. Based on history with CV 9035DK it could be the ARMADILO APC version. But that's for next year. Unless the economics have pushed this back as happened to the Dutch last Summer. And yes everyone I'm on a mission here and everywhere.
http://www.forsvaret.dk/HOK/Materiel/Pages/Køretøjer.aspx
http://armyvehicles.dk/
http://armyvehicles.dk/cv9035.htm
http://armyvehicles.dk/m113g3dk.htm
http://armyvehicles.dk/m113g3dk_tankp.htm
http://armyvehicles.dk/procure.htm

Regards,
Pat

[Hviid]

Don.

Yes, at the moment we're using the M113 and CV9035DK as APC. See my first post regadig 2+1 and 1+2 for configuration of coys equipped with CV9035DK and M113.

Just realised I made a mistake.
Regarding the fifth chart - it should be three 81mm mortars.
Hence formation 006 did have three 81mm m0rtars. Just found the correct organization charts.

Regarding Fastboat Tough reply - we neved have had Piranha II. Only Piranha IIIH and IIIC. We started out with 22 pieces H models and later bourght 96 pieces of the improved C model.
And you're right regarding a repacement for the M113 - we're still waiting for the decision to be made.
By the way - thanks for the links - I haven't seen them before...:doh:

Hviid

[DRG]

What you are going to get for formation 006 and any others like it will be another formation with mortars and the original without mortars.

Don

[DRG]

There's a bit of a problem



Regarding formation 015.
I can’t find any data showing we actually had unit 335 - I think you can delete it.
Unit 336 and 337 is correct. Start date 1/56 is correct.



The problem is you have already told me ........



Unit 337 – never existed.



and if "Start date 1/56 is correct" ......

what of Unit 334 that starts 1/52 and ends 12/57 ?

If I removed unit 335 as you suggest I get an 11 year gap with no unit in that formation. Do I assume that unit 334 stays in service until unit 336 starts or does unit 336 start earlier than 1967 ?

??

OR...... does unit 337 actually exist ?


Don

[DRG]

and as well


Regarding formation 100.
The start date is correct. The end date should be 12/2010.
One HQ unit with one Piranha.
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three Piranhas),
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)).
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.


So if formation 100 has an end date of 12/2010 then formation 101 should have an end date of 12/2010 as well.......yes ??


And... where in the game do you find a formation with attached ammo ?? You don't which should be a clue that we don't create them like that. It's fine to make suggestions to improve an OOB but only within the parameters of the game. Please don't try to re-invent the wheel.




Don

[Hviid]

Hi.

Regarding formation 006, Ok.

Regarding formation 015 and units 334 - 337.
Unit 334 never existed, and as far I can find data, the RCL jeep wasn't introduced until beginning of 1956. If you have other data, ok then.
It is unit 335 and 336 which are correct. Don't know why I mentioned 337 - late night I guess. God job you're awake. Unit 337, the MB jeeb has never been fitted with a RCL.
End date 12/82 for unit 336 is also correct the RCL jeep has been completly out of service ever since. Thus formation 015 should have an start date 1/56 and end date 12/82. I've double checked it, so it's not 1985 as earlier mentioned.

It's correct that formation 101 also should have an end date 12/2010.

Well, you're right. No units have internal CSS units. AI pick list slipped my mind here.
I'll just always buy them on the side, since I very often tend to run out of ammo.
It wasn't my intention.to suggest a reinvent of a wheel.

I've gotten a new respect for you editing OOB - It's a hell of a job keeping track of all the various data.

Hviid

[DRG]

Regarding formation 015 and units 334 - 337.
Unit 334 never existed, and as far I can find data, the RCL jeep wasn't introduced until beginning of 1956. If you have other data, ok then.

NO... but I am struggling with the info you are providing....



It is unit 335 and 336 which are correct. Don't know why I mentioned 337 - late night I guess. Good job you're awake. Unit 337, the MB jeeb has never been fitted with a RCL.
End date 12/82 for unit 336 is also correct the RCL jeep has been completly out of service ever since. Thus formation 015 should have an start date 1/56 and end date 12/82. I've double checked it, so it's not 1985 as earlier mentioned.



...and yesterday you told me 335 should be removed.....


Regarding formation 015.
I can’t find any data showing we actually had unit 335 - I think you can delete it.
Unit 336 and 337 is correct. Start date 1/56 is correct.



So far you have told me to delete 337 and 335 and now delete 334 and put 335 back in. End dates have changed twice. At least todays info makes sense and makes a coherent formation




I've gotten a new respect for you editing OOB - It's a hell of a job keeping track of all the various data.

Hviid

It doesn't help when I get conflicting info like that but I think it's sorted out now ( I hope..;))



Don

[Hviid]

Hi Don.

I'm sorry for confusing you by providing conficting data.
I'll promise you, that I'll double check my posts before I'm posting them...

Hviid

[DRG]

No worries, I have it all sorted out now

Don

[Palle]

Hey Don.

It seems that defense cuts have forced the Danish Defense Ministery to cancel participation in the Swedish-Norwegian mobile artillery system, Archer.

Instead we will be getting the French CAESAR(at least that is what the Army wants, the current red government might cancel that as well as part of more budget cuts). The Army wants 18, but there is only money for 12, how that is to be solved and when, no-one knows. The article does not say. My guess would be 2013.

http://www.artilleriet.dk/Artilleri/

[DRG]

Well, when they finally make up their minds, let us know.

Don

[Palle]

I suspect the end result will be that we will have to do with the M109 for a while yet. Unsurprising with a socialist government...

[Quark]

1. The Home Guard snipers existed until 2008 when the last GV M/66 (H&K designation G3A5) were withdrawn. The SSR company supporting Danish regular SOF units retains snipers.
2. Danish Army snipers today have the TRG-42 as the main sniper system, but can chose a HK-417 or a M/66 if that fits better with the mission.
3. The Danish army has determined that the MG3 will not be replaced with any 5.56x45 MG, but with a 7.62x51 MG, IMHO the HK 121 being a likely candidate.
4. Meanwhile the remaining MG3's in the Home Guard are being transfered to the army for use in Afghanistan. In return the number of C7 LSW's in the Home Guard are being increased significantly. Depending on squad type up to 4 LSW's in a 8 man squad.
5. The AT-4 and grenade launchers were withdrawn from the Home Guard 2 years ago, and Carl Gustav use has been severely restricted.

[Palle]

Five years and we have finally decided.

The Danish Army has bought 15 Nexter 8x8 CAESAR systems. It kan be seen on Hærens Kamp- og Ildstøttecenter's home page.

We have also purchased 15 CARDOM 120 mm mortars from ESL to be built into our Piranha 5s and 900 Scania lorries of various sorts.



A part from that, we still have some very fine soldiers, but cutbacks has reducer their effective numbers severaly and there is an exodous of young officers.

[DRG]

OK, Thanks. If any more info comes to light let us know.

Also.......it looks like I missed removing the cluster munitions from the Danish SP arty so that and a new date for the Caesar is on my list
Don

[Palle]

Will keep you up to date. Mainly about the Scania and 120mm ASL Cardom-Piranhas.

Five years, two or possibly even three different governments... and we eventually decided on the one they already had in mind...

[DRG]

Found this...like the sunshade

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b0/47/7e/b0477ee332b7efd01b39d4a2563960ff.jpg

[DRG]

We have also purchased 15 CARDOM 120 mm mortars from ESL to be built into our Piranha 5s .....

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14660&stc=1&d=1489842662

[cbo]

The Army is also expecting to update the Leopard 2A5-DK at Krauss-Maffei, 38 tanks in all, The update is supposed to keep them running until 2035. Piranha IIICs are also to be updated to last until 2030. The CV9035 DKs are also to be updated in comming years. The current ARV - Wisent 1 - is to be kept running for another 5-10 years before replacement and the army expects to buy a number of "armoured engineering vehicles".

There is nothing new on what the updates might include.

[DRG]

. The current ARV - Wisent 1 - is to be kept running for another 5-10 years before replacement and the army expects to buy a number of "armoured engineering vehicles".

.

I just found out about the PNMIRK. I will be working on an Icon for that

[cbo]

Came across these, showing the UK 17-pdr anti-tank gun in use with the Danish Army in the 1950ies.

For someone who spends most his time studying WWII, there is something interestingly odd with these postwar combinations of US and UK equipment, sometimes even mixed with Danish and Swedish items.

17-pdr firing:

http://krigeren.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/thumbs_skydning-med-m76.jpg

http://krigeren.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/thumbs_skud-med-m76.jpg

17-pdr being towed by a GMC. When the guns first arrived from the UK in 1945/46, they were towed by M5 half-tracks.

http://krigeren.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/thumbs_gmc-med-m76-kanon.jpg

Anti-tank unit ca. 1955:

http://krigeren.dk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/thumbs_panservaerns-enheden-paa-raekke.jpg

[DRG]

That'll work....

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14665&stc=1&d=1489881793


http://i.imgur.com/PNfC6tR.jpg

[wulfir]

I'm looking for details on Danish army battalion level OOBs circa 1985, primarily units dedicated to the defence of Sjælland. Hoping for some help from the resident Danes...:cool: