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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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[ March 21, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: henk brouwer ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Well, if we start talking about the "truth", then we got to say what's bihind the war.
If the US takes control of Irak then they will control the Iraki economy through whatever govertment they put in place, and most Euros belive that is way too much power for the US, and thus tried to check the US using the UN. Now the problem is that the UN have become "irrelevant". Historically, the UN funtion have been to keep the US and the Soviets from going to war, and lately have been to justify the wars of the powerful against the weak. What we saw in the UN Last couple months was that some countries believed for a moment that the UN was really there to keep peace in the world, instead of justifying wars, and the moment the UN failed to justify a war the UN became absolutely irrelevant, cause no military (nuclear) power is gonna hear what that bunch of loser in the UN say. Or anybody really thought that Russia was going to allow UN intervention in Chechenia, just to mention one? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Take a look at my post on Shrapnel's General, above. Thank you.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
A few days ago I saw a poll that said 40% of Americans believed Iraq was behind the 9/11 terrorist attack.
- Probably only the ignorant, I thought, those who get their info of the world from Rikki Lake and Jerry Springer, those with no power. 10 minutes ago I saw Ari Fleischer (White House Spokesman) on the television confirming that GWB believes Iraq responsible (I cannot even with my best intention make his comment mean something else, sure someone else here can). |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Also as I post this, US Special Forces are attacking an enclave of the Taliban in Iraq. Oh..Rikki Lake is a looser, who watches that crud anyway? [ March 21, 2003, 20:20: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Thermo:
Correct me if I missunderstand you here. The main evidence of Iraq beeing responsible for 9/11 is 2 persons with falsified papers from Kuwait ? BTW, those pictures of yours was real funny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Aloofi: Is there any point at all to your post ? Please excplain. And regarding the war. Now thats it's started, lets all hope it will be over as soon as possible. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Don't you like it? Which kind you oil? |
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Not a bad idea. Repart Irak between Turkey, Iran and Arabia. But I don't think certain corporations would like something like this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The players with the big chips: Royal Dutch Shell and BP, mainly I think. And Total-Elf has recently gotten or was negotiating concessions. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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[ March 22, 2003, 12:32: Message edited by: solops ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Aloofi:
No I don't like it. I find your little picture highly offensive in a thread about life and death of real people. Please remove it. Edit: That goes for you too Solops [ March 21, 2003, 22:33: Message edited by: primitive ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Primitive said:
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(I didn't even bother looking for a quik'N E-Z link, but if you get Time, go and read). Now I'll admit that Time is unabashedly pro-American (rah rah rah) but it's not in the habit of publishing fanciful conjecture either (cf. Al' Jazeer and possibly CNN). |
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The Stinger is a defensive weapon, and has limited offensive capabilities. And providing them was a magnitude of order less dangerous than supplying Saddam with F-1s. No one is saying that the US was not partially responsible for this mess. What we are saying is that the US did not do it for direct profit. Our interests were always strategic. As were the interests of the Soviets. What were the interests of France, beyond lining there pockets with Iraqi cash? [ March 21, 2003, 12:10: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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The USA had a hand in the making of Saddam, just like France (which you like to target) and other countries. If your going to rave about how the French gave him this, and the French gave him that then you have to acknowledge the US's part in making of the Frankenstein. Askan</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">. No one is saying that the US was not partially responsible for this mess. What we are saying is that the US did not do it for direct profit. Our interests were always strategic. As were the interests of the Soviets. What were the interests of France, beyond lining there pockets with Iraqi cash? The US spent billions containing Soviet Communism; France made a billion arming the third world. And then had the audacity to try and protect one of the most evil men in the world. All for cash! America will have its way in Iraq, could be easy, could be hard, but we will have our way. I can only hope that we will freeze France out of the reconstruction that will follow. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Not to mention the fact that the US is working on rectifying their mistakes of helping to create Iraq. We are going into Iraq to remove Saddam.
France was trying to hide their mistakes by blocking the military action. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
q: Have you heard the latest 5 day forecast for Baghdad?
+ + + + A: Two Days. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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(I didn't even bother looking for a quik'N E-Z link, but if you get Time, go and read). Now I'll admit that Time is unabashedly pro-American (rah rah rah) but it's not in the habit of publishing fanciful conjecture either (cf. Al' Jazeer and possibly CNN).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was also covered in detail on MSNBC and FNC. This kinda sobers ones opinion on Iraq now doesn't it. To think, that 9-11 and the previous attempt in 93 are now semi-conclusively linked to Saddam and Iraq. Just goes to show you, where there is a desire, there is always a way. Thank god the US intervened before Saddam got his grubby little hands on Nuclear weapons. Just think what he or his cronies would have done with one or more of those? [insert]shudder[/insert] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Jimbob, Atrocities, Thermo ++
Sorry, I do not doubt the fact that these two individuals got their passports during the brief regime of Iraq in Quwait. I only find the strange if this is the only evidence of Iraq beeing behind 9-11. It's very little to base a war on, beeing this happened in one of the most corrupt corners of the world. It could be some big plan of Saddam, or it could just be the work of some low-level clerk lining his own pockets. This is very circumstantial evidence at the most, and refering to it as genuine proof only strengthen the image of USA putting themself beyond (international) law. When that is said; Now that the war is started, I whish the coalition forces the best of luck in the war. And I also whish the US the best of luck in winning the peace and rebuilding their reputation. Solops: Thank you. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
It still doesn't change the fact that you are making idiotic jokes while people are dying - warmongers like you make me sick. Also you nothing about me . . . so YOU don't go making any assumptions. I think I would know enough that a war initiated by your AWOL president and his chicken hawks is futile.
[ March 23, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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I have no mercy for any nation that would shoot POW’s in the head and then display their bodies on TV. These savages will get all that they have coming to them. For the first time in the better part of a decade, America has a president that was not bought and paid for with foreign cash. We have a man that knows the meaning of honor, unlike his opponent who sat in silence while his boss lied to the nation. We have a war of liberation in Iraq, and we will finish it this time. There will also be crude jokes about it, many of which I will enjoy. The fact is that I really don’t give a damn about your feelings on the issue. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I think your lame reply says it all. Anyone who thinks war is a good thing is evil.
Also it's typical for people to question people's patriotism when they don't support misguided policies. Some were making fun of me for writing this quote, but you are guilty of what this quote says so I'll repeat it. "It is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Herman Goering [ March 24, 2003, 01:08: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
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I really don’t think that quotes from National Socialists helps your position. Had a nation had the foresight to step on that adoration in the late 30’s the world would have been a lot better off. But the peace keepers had their say, and all but the cowards paid the price. This would be Nazi called Saddam has invaded his Last country, and had his day. His time is over whether you like it or not. I’m sure he can quote Nazi’s just like you do.
[ March 24, 2003, 01:22: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
What position doesn't it support?
That your evil for liking war. That your acting like a Nazi for questioning my patriotism. Or that W was AWOL for a year in 1972. [ March 24, 2003, 01:30: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Hey guys can we cool it. I never wanted a flame war.
Ok, the humor was a bit tasteless, it was also on the radio, and funny. Humor is a ligitimate way of facing concerns, especially when one feels powerless. I make fun of Bush also, but that does not make me an /enaemy of the State any more than my other joke makes me a WarMonger. I am sorry for the loss of IRAQI lives since gulf war 1. I am sorry for the lives lost when the US encouraged rebellion failed. I understand committments were made to key coalition members and they had to be honored. It still would have been better to finish it then. I feel honored by the behavior of our troops and the tactics of the ground war that does expose them to more harm. May God protect them. 40% of US citizens believe Sadam had helped the 9/11 terrorists. The is even some indications that Sadam intel spooks also helped with the first WTC bombing. I will be glad when this Sadam/Iraq business is finally over. I hope the US and Iraq can pick up the pieces and get on with life. I simply hope Bush has the sense to ignore some of the advice he is getting. I am glad we are taking care of Iraq, but I do not want it to go farther. He will not get my vote. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Rextorres,
I laugh in your face, is that the best that you can do. Evil Nazi is not a description that has ever been used to describe me. And the way you put it makes you sound like an angry child. Don’t you have the courage to come right out and state your opinion of me? I guess we know the answer to that now. And yes I do question your patriotism. I think that there is a good chance that you are nothing more than a coward sitting at a computer, spouting off from a home that is made safe by the sacrifices of others. So until you decide to add some substance to your Posts, I will ignore you, and spend my time enjoying the demise of Saddam. [ March 24, 2003, 01:47: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Thermo and Rex:
Please take this squabbling to PM. No one wants to see it. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
This is an official warning now. This has gone way beyond a discussion of the events and is getting extremely personal. You all cool it or this thread will be lockd down.
Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Wow, a flame war!
*seats in a reclinable chair and opens a popcorn bag* |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
This is getting interesting...
Aloofi, do you mind passing the popcorn? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Sure, here you go.
*Passes the Popcorn bowl to CEO Troll* Hey hey, don't eat it all, you nasty pig. Give me back my popcorn! *CEO Trolls runs away and locks himself in the bathroom with the popcorn bowl* Open the door!!! Give me back my popcorn or I'll bring down this damn door!!! |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
edited by tesco...
links removed.... [ March 24, 2003, 20:46: Message edited by: tesco samoa ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I hear the US is complaining about Iraq's treatment of prisoners of war. How can they demand that Saddam respect the Geneva Convetnion when they won't even do it themselves?
Link-> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0111-07.htm |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
tesco,
In the interest of fair play, could you post some links to pictures of Iraqis dead from Sadams chemical weapons? Or pictures of Iraq prisoners dieing from anthrax testing? How about some of Sadams sons torture and rape victims? |
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
gotta tell you, I'm tired of watching only war propaganda instead of news.
I dispise Al Jazeera for all the lies they say about Israel, but I guess I have no other place to see the pictures that have been Banned from the american media...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Link to Photo of dead soldier. http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/ima...46017_1_17.jpg . . [ March 24, 2003, 17:15: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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That said, I usually find the BBC to be pretty good. Their website isn't all that easy to search, but you can tune into their radio over the web if you're not in the UK to do it the old fashioned way, and they tend to show both sides of any given argument/ conflict. Most importantly, you know they're not in the pockets of some corporate or other because that's just not how they're funded. They do have links with certain political parties at the higher levels, but I honestly don't think that influence filters down very far into the news reporting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news Edit: Thinking about it, there's nothing wrong with biaseed news coverage as long as (a) you can find some equally biased piece leaning in the opposite direction and (b) the reporter follows rules of good journalism and doesn't lie/ distort the facts becasue of their bias. Also aloofi, I find it odd that such images are Banned in america. After all, you can go down the cinema any time and see ten times as many soldiers killed with a hundred times the gore. I often find Americans very hard to understand for this sort of contradiction. That said, we're hardly any different these days here in the UK of A. [ March 24, 2003, 16:57: Message edited by: dogscoff ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
[quote]Originally posted by dogscoff:
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Anyway, i don't consider myself american, even though both my parents are, cause i was born and raised oversea, in the land of milk and honey http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , but I've been living back in the US for a while and I can tell you, the yanks are anything but tough, they just like violent movies, like I do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Aloofi,
I have edited your post. I changed your image to a link. I agree with your desire for unbiased, and even unedited news coverage. But this isn't CNN, this is a discussion forum. Their may be people here that would be offended by such graphic scenes. By displaying the image openly with no warning you do not give them the choice of whetther they wish to see it or not. In the future link to your photo's and give a description please. Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Dogscoff the post was not ment to be an anti-american stance. Just a reminder to all that war is brutish and that its results are very horrible.
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A link would still allow full expression while preserving the sensibilities of the people who may not like being subjugated to extraneous stuff without their consent. |
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Geoschmo |
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If they're really interested in 'world peace' why won't they join the international court? Are the troops currently invading Iraq the sort of 'peace keepers' they want to protect by not joining this important cornerstone of international order? An even better question, of course, is whether the forces supported by Oliver North/John Poindexter are an example of the sort of 'peace keepers' they want to protect by not joining the court treaty. The US repeatedly lost to Nicaragua's complaint at the existing 'World Court' in the Hague during the illegal proxy war on Nicaragua in the 80s -- and so claimed the court did not have 'jurisdiction' over the conflict. What world is Nicaragua in if it's not in this world? North and Poindexter are war criminals by any rational definition of the term, and morally identical to Osama Bin Laden. They payed for at least as many deaths as Osama has to date, but the bodies were not economically valuable like those high-powered executives in the WTC. This is why they won't join the court. The US govt. thinks its own terrorists are 'heros' and doesn't want its 'heros' prosecuted as the criminals they are. And why do they whine that Russia is not respecting UN resolutions when it (reportedly) gives GPS jamming technology to Iraq, when the US doesn't respect UN resolutions either? The original Gulf War resolutions explicitly said that Iraq was to be driven out of Kuwait and that the object was NOT to over-throw the Iraqi government. Yet the US is claiming these resolutions, and the newer 1441 which deals only with 'weapons of mass destruction', as authority to force 'regime change' in Iraq. The US can violate UN resolutions in order to enforce UN resolutions? So does the UN have authority or not? Or does the UN only have authority over nations other than the US? Or only when it agrees with the US? Now Turkey is talking about sending its troops into northern Iraq, or might already have done so. The US of course, doesn't want them to do this. So just what is the US going to do about it? Complain to the UN? How is Turkey less 'authorized' to invade Iraq than the US? I'll be damned amused if they try to get any UN resolutions against Turkey for 'protecting its national interests' on its own borders when the US claims the right to protect its national intertests anywhere in the world. So what does that leave them? Apparently threats of force. Will US forces attack Turkish forces if they are outside Turkey? This is the world GWB has created. Might makes right and the bigger gun is 'more right' than the smaller. The same thing goes on with domestic politics. The Federal govt. constantly bullies the states by threatening to cut off funds for various things if they don't pass laws to suit the Feds wishes, completely over-riding the supposed seperation of the layers of government provided in the constitution. In 'response' to the total incompetance of our law enforcement and intelligence communites to prevent the WTC attacks they have passed new laws to make it possible to law enforcement to rummage through your personal affairs at will -- without legal protocols -- and have been arresting even American citizens and holding them without charge or access to legal council. Most recently a draft of another outrage has surfaced where secret arrests are authorized, apparently to avoid the inconvenience of having to defend their actions in court when people find out that someone has been 'disappeared'. Presumably this will have to include some legal sanction against people who dare to reveal that someone they know has been arrested, else it cannot remain secret for long. It was speculated that this was to be submitted in the midst of the war to take advantage of 'patritoism' to intimidate the opposition. Fortunately it doesn't look like the opposition is going to slink away this time, but that doesn't mean they won't try to pass their new powers. The US Govt. is a monster out of control. [ March 24, 2003, 20:10: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Judging from the treatment of Iraqi soldiers who are now POWs, I'd say the US and British militaries can tell the difference. Well, except when some of Saddam's thugs open fire under a flag of surrender. Oh, but you have a handy excuse for that as well, right? Elsewhere: Quote:
Except the "gore" in the cinema involves special effects and the actors in question are usually still alive when the scene is finished. But don't let facts get in the way of your posturing. Quote:
It's a matter of letting the families be informed if a loved one has been killed in action before they run into it on the nightly news and see the corpse. AFAIK, the images aren't "Banned" but the networks are reluctant to show such things due to the above. Or if it was Banned, why was FoxNews able to show a still of the bodies from the Al-jazeera footage? One where the faces are not clearly visible, btw. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Sorry to bring this up... But I believe that even the links to the pictures may be illegal since this server is based in the USA. A few sites have been shut down showing and displaying the links so I am going to edit my post and remove the links from below. I ask that Aloofi and others who have the links in the previous Posts do so as well. We would not like to see shrapnel shut down for inappropriate graphic material. I apolgize to Shrapnel and its members for posting the links in the first place. Tesco.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
here are some blogs i use for information as it comes in...
http://www.agonist.org/ http://www.offthekuff.com/mt/ http://www.dailykos.com/ http://warblogs.cc/ as always read everything with a grain of salt. [ March 24, 2003, 20:56: Message edited by: tesco samoa ] |
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