Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

RE: Supply lines/warplans

As someone with almost 10 years military experience (Army/NG), & someone who has run many a LOGPAC (logistics package), I guess I'll comment on the warplan and logistics. The plan was, and is, an excellent one -- multi-pronged assault over a wide front, using Coalition advantages of maneuver & air superiority to the maximum. Bypass centers of resistance (urban areas) to continue to advance on the main objective -- Saddam & Baghdad.
As far as the supplies go, we were victims of our own success, advancing far faster & further than probably anyone thought we would. At no point did I ever hear about anyone that didn't get SOME supplies -- even 1 MRE a day provides more than enough calories for the average soldier to keep fighting, and while tanks/apcs may have been low on fuel, but were never out of gas as they were in Patton's advance across France.
More than likely, the main holdup was getting a forward supply point organized, secured and getting inventory to that location (inside Iraq). It would be from that point that the divisional/brigade support units would get the supplies to distribute the beans and bullets to the trigger pullers.
While the sandstorm was a nuisance, it was probably a blessing in disguise as it let us rest up, redeploy, secure our lines, and modify the operation to continue the advance more successfully.
BTW, my brother-in-law is in country supporting the 101st.

[ April 03, 2003, 16:09: Message edited by: kalthalior ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The events at the LA Times is straight from CNN and the Washington Post. The Emails I was
allowed to read were not addressed to me, so I will not post them. But I am told that Fox
featured one of them on their cable channel Last night. I will see the tape of it later tonight. If I got to see the emails, that means that they are pretty much in open circulation now, my contacts are pretty poor these days. The emails were from people in the 3rdInf at the front lines. I am also told that Fox interviewed a gentleman Last night who said that the New York Times had requested an article that was biased
against the administration, he turned them down.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

another cluster of links....

Russian military intel update: War in Iraq, April 2
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1494&lang=en

From the West Bank to Baghdad
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1612&lang=en

Arabs See Israel's Hand Behind U.S. War in Iraq
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1613&lang=en

Key developments concerning Iraq
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1535&lang=en

US troops 'within six miles' of Baghdad
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1565&lang=en

As usual, i only provide the links for anybody interested to read.
They are not from US nor from Iraq.
I don't say they are the 'real thing' but on this war everibody lie......

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

An M1-Abrams f****d

http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-browse_i...Id=347&lang=en

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The fun part is that the hull sustained no damage, the crew survived, and after repairs to the damaged carriage, it will be going back into action. It ain't that easy to take out an M1.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really hurt that bad. It had a track fire to be sure, but the blow-off panels are in place so the interior did not burn. M1 are very resistant to fire, unlike the T 72's. T 72 will go off like fireworks at the first spark of a fire. And the anti-wgm packs they carry often stop the missile only to then cook the crew in the resulting fire.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

It is interesting how much has been learned by the US about tank design. US tanks used to be sh*t. (Germans always designed good tanks, of course... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). The Sherman in WW II, for example, was a bathtub with treads and a turret on it. The reason the US armored divisions managed to defeat the Germans was sheer numbers, and air support.

It's hard to tell just from that photo how bad the damage to the rest of the M1 was, but it is entirely possible that the main body of the tank was not touched. There are all sorts of safety features and 'firewalls' in the design of the Abrams tank. But that's still quite an eye opener. As far as I have heard, the Iraqi resistors (uniformed or not) do not have 'anti-tank' missiles. They are using RPGs. What does an Abrams cost? Aren't they getting to be something like fighter planes, costing close to $100 million each? The 'special' armor is very expensive, I know that much. Yet a cruddy little RPG, designed in the 1970s and costing a few hundred dollars, can disable it. And they are so simple that many 'third world' nations manufacture them (under license) instead of buying them directly from the Russians.

You can see why they don't want to go into close-in 'urban' combat from images like this. The Abrams has normal steel armor on top, NOT the 'special' armor that can resist shaped charges. It was too expensive, and too heavy, to use on all surfaces. If you can do this to the tough side armor at reasonable ranges with a mere RPG, then you could certainly destroy one if you could get a shot from above (in the upper stories of building, for example). I think they designed these tanks with US air power in mind. Every war we've fought since aircraft were invented, we've had air superiority. So they felt they could presume the tank was safe from above and save weight. If some clever person figures out how to make armor-piercing mortars, or how to use RPGs in that fashion (shoot up and then come down) our super-duper tanks will be in deep doodoo.

[ April 04, 2003, 22:01: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

From what I understand, their were two M1s damaged by WGMs similar in class to TOWs mounted on the back of flat bed trucks. I assume this is one of them. I don't think the trucks survived the return fire nearly as well....

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I don't think an armor-piercing mortar round is possible (although I could well be wrong). The ballistic use of RPGs is even more unlikely. You'd either have to fire at a high angle to hit your target, giving your round a high probability of being misdirected by wind; and/or you'd have to cut the burn time down for the rounds so they wouldn't go so high first.

If someone does come out with an effective means of attacking the top armor of the tanks, I'm sure the defense industry will find some way to stop it. It's the old "Make a bullet to pierce this armor" "Okay, now make some armor to stop this bullet" routine.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Oh, an armor piercing mortar round is certainly possible. At least the shaped-charge variety. I guess I should have been clearer. It would have to be reasonably accurate to be worthwhile. Mortars are highly inaccurate, and so they are almost always anti-personal (fragmentation) or plain high explosive warheads that can be made to explode above the target and cover a wide area. A shaped charge mortar round would just punch holes in the dirt 95 percent of the time. If you could make a 'smart' shaped-charge mortar that would 'look down' and guide itself to hit a tank it would be well worthwhile to produce and deploy because the Abrams is not the only tank with less armor on top. But this sort of technology is the hallmark of Western, especially US, military methods, not third-world militaries.

In fact, there is a weapon of this type in the works with the US military. A special artillery shell that would deploy a parachute and scan for tanks before firing a special weapon down on them. Not sure how far along that is.

Same for the RPG round. If you could make a 'smart' RPG that would seek out a tank you'd have something. As it is, yes, you'd just be firing off flares for the enemy to follow back to your position. The chance of hitting anything by shooting up and hoping it comes down at the right place would be pretty small.

That level of damage on the M1 does make more sense from a real 'anti-tank' missile, though.

[ April 05, 2003, 01:17: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could be this?
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...d=1784&lang=en

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

This is why we need multiple levels of both the "armor" and "armor skipping" abilities for SE5 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Well guys and gals, the cat is about to be out of the bag. First let’s note that the LA Times just got burned for using doctored photos on the front page. Photos that were altered to show the US military in a bad light, when in fact just the opposite was occurring. Now back to the cat; CNN and MS-NBC are not showing things as they are! These terrible battles that were going to kill Americans by the thousands are in fact human wave assaults. Why do they only say that these Guards divisions are just taken out? Why do they not show how one sided the fight really is? They started the war with a reporting plan of their own, and now they run stories about how FUBAR’d the Army’s plan has become. I think that the networks are the ones with FUBAR’d plan. A plan that they used in the sixties, and grew to love. Well this is not the sixties, and this is not a police action run by McNamara and Johnson from the White House. This is not McNamara trying to send Messages with measured escalation. This is a combined arms offensive such has not been mounted in the history of man.

Soldiers from the 3rdInf are reporting mass charges against their armor. They are describing seas of body parts, yes parts, knee deep. They are using dump body trucks to haul them away. Published kill numbers for the 3rd are less than 50 KIA and 8,000 to 10,000 Iraqis KIA. These guys are massing up and trying to over-run the US positions. 300 men at a time. What a waste, this in and of itself gives us a look at what Iraq had become. To throw away the Last of your Army like this indicates that they have no intention of achieving victory, it indicates that they are going to try to go out with glory. Perhaps glory in the eyes of their god, but dead is dead. And dead from charging M-1s and Bradley’s with RPG’s is just plain stupid. Personally, were I there, I would be cleaning the sand out of my NBC gear.

Thermo's post is true....

But the picture was not shown to show the americans in a bad light.... More it was that the photographer snapped two pictures quickly and decided that if he combined them together it made a better, stronger emotional picture. Unfortantly he had a couple of duplicate people.

When this was found out. The person was sacked as per the policy of that newspaper.

The rest of his post.... Well I enjoyed the fiction as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Keep up the Posts Thermo.... You always make me think ( except when you putting down countries http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ).

Thank you

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

that iraqwar.ru should be read with a huge grain of salt..... But it is a blog none the less... No matter what they try to push themselves off as ....

http://www.dailykos.com/
http://www.oss.net/extra/page/
http://philcarter.blogspot.com/
http://www.agonist.org/

Much better...

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which part is fiction, I watched tape of the fox report, and they showed one of the emails just as I was told they had. It was the one that spoke of the body parts. The photo was altered to fit the anti war view that the paper wanted. And the CF's are public record. The picture in question was altered to make it look like the civies were being held at gun point, which was not what was going on at all. So which part is fiction. Perhaps the toxins that were rooted out today are fiction. Perhaps the trace samples from the terrorist camp are fiction. I hope so in this particular case, since the stuff was there but is now gone, one would have to wonder about where it went.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I have seen the photo and I am not sure I see how it potrays the Americans in any light, good or bad. For one thing the soldier in the picture is a British soldier.

It's obvious the photographer was simply trying to make a picture that had more visual interest. I don't see any nefarious message or political slant in his choice of imagry. It was very harmless.

That being said his termination was completely right and proper. Allowing any sort of manipulation like this, even one as innocuous as this one, is something that simply should not be tolerated. It opens up too much potential for horrible abuses.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What has happened to the M1 tanks in Iraq is a short fall in the tactics, not a weakness in the tank. The M1 was developed to kill Soviet armor from long range while moving at high speed. And to deal with Soviet infantry by killing their personnel carriers before the infantry dismounts. The Soviet battle plan calls for units to dive forward until halted by combat, then to stand aside and let the unit directly in trail to move forward and continue the advance. American order of battle was to kill and displace, to buy time and delay the advance, not stop it. This was designed as a combined arms engagement with air power, TOW and Dragon anti-armor weapons and tank engagements that were quick long range fights. The M1 was not designed to fight dismounted infantry. And it is poorly suited for stationary slow moving fights against these forces. The doctrine would be to blow past these guys and attack the areas to their rear, leaving them to be dealt with by our infantry. These tanks are being de-tracked by shoulder fired RPG’s and possibly by some sight guided anti armor missiles. Their defense against this is open country speed, which they do not have in these small towns. And will not have in Baghdad. In an urban fight, the tank becomes self propelled artillery. At close quarters in a stationary fight, I could have a troop of girl scouts ready to de-track tanks in about half an hour. The problem is that de-tracking does not kill the tank, so if you loose the ground, then you get to fight the same tank again the next day.

To put this in perspective, the damaging of 5 tanks in a two hundred mile, balls to the wall advance, in dismal. It shows the Iraqi army to be totally inept. They should have killed five tanks at every creek and gully along the way. They should have forced the infantry to dismount every couple of miles. Personally, it appears to me that the Iraqi’s have very little faith in their equipment and even less ability to make good use of it. This is typical of a fighting force built on the Soviet model. When command and control is removed, the individual units do not have the ability to take the situation onto their own shoulders. They are trained to follow orders, and the development of local leadership is forbidden. This is to prevent the Army from being capable of independent operation that could be directed against the government. In the urban fight that will probably be fought in Baghdad, the same short coming will be evident. The Iraqi’s will never be able to mount an integrated defense without re-establishing command and control. In Somalia, the Skinnies were able to punish the Rangers because each fighter (can’t really call them solders) instinctively knew how to best contribute to the battle based on the local situation. They had never had the luxury of command and control in battle, so they had many trained field commanders, and an instinctive knowledge of how to fight a fluid battle in their urban back yard. This had been developed over a generation and a half of fighting. Many of these 20 year old Skinnies had 10 years of combat experience, with out ever having taken an order from anyone who was not close enough to give it verbally.

I find it strange that the Soviet model can train an irregular force to be self controlled at the local tactical level, but not allow the same freedom of action to the units in the regular Army. This is an obvious result of the mistrust that dictatorial governments have of the military forces under their command.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As always, you are correct Geo. When I said American, I should have said Coalition.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

and their was a m1 that drove off a bridge... a few days ago... All crew perished...

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Yep, the reports indicate that they drowned. Some say that it was also de-tracked, which
would cause it to make a hard turn to the side missing the track. Seems to me that it would
have been a good idea to have already blown the bridge. Or at least called arty onto it once it
was lost.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Some heavy losses the Last 2 days for both sides....

Here is an interesting link

http://www.minimumeffort.com/nutshell.html

A WARMONGER EXPLAINS WAR TO A PEACENIK
By Anonymous

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That link sounds like this thread.

EDIT: While doing my taxes I just realized that based on the number of tax payers in this country we've each - on avg. - just paid around $800 of our hard earned money to blow up Iraq. We could have given every man, woman, and child of Iraq $4500. Kind of wacky if you ask me. This is based on $100B price tag for this adventure.

[ April 08, 2003, 09:18: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's been tried before. It was called the "Oil for Food" program. The only ones who saw any of the money were Saddam and his "praetorians" (because they controlled the south), and the Kurds (because their distribution program wasn't controlled by Saddam).

So, you are not convinced that this war was a good return on the investment?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's been tried before. It was called the "Oil for Food" program. The only ones who saw any of the money were Saddam and his "praetorians" (because they controlled the south), and the Kurds (because their distribution program wasn't controlled by Saddam).

So, you are not convinced that this war was a good return on the investment?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not if they don't find significant amounts of WMDs. I'm not talking mustard gas either - or a few rusted barrels of sarin -(I am not sure when this war became about liberating the Iraqi people BTW). I want to see a huge wmd plant that had been churning out weapons.

If it had been my money I would have invested it in improving gas mileage - or how about a middle class tax cut - I could give you a laundry list. Or better yet I would pay off North Korea.

[ April 08, 2003, 10:30: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

"A WARMONGER EXPLAINS WAR TO A PEACENIK
By Anonymous" was interesting. Although it was misnamed. It should have been called, "A misinformed peacenik suffers a pshychotic break in which he fantisizes about having a discussion with a similerly misinformed warmonger."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not if they don't find significant amounts of WMDs. I'm not talking mustard gas either - or a few rusted barrels of sarin -(I am not sure when this war became about liberating the Iraqi people BTW). I want to see a huge wmd plant that had been churning out weapons.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Patience, Grasshopper - all will be revealed...

Quote:

If it had been my money I would have invested it in improving gas mileage - or how about a middle class tax cut - I could give you a laundry list. Or better yet I would pay off North Korea.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only "payment" we should give NK is "payment in kind". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

As for the rest, it does no good to focus entirely on domestic issues and ignore the dangers of the larger world. It is in part because we did just that in the 90's that we're in the situation we're in now.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Ha Ha Ha good one GEO http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Any news about Afghanistan?
I've heard things are not going well there....

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks for the info, but here's the response to the three myths.

Myth 1

Yes most of the weapons are russian, etc. BUT the one percent the U.S sold him are the WMD of mass distraction we can't find.

Myth 2

This guy is plain wrong (unless he gets insider information). From the news sources I've read the most loyal followers are the Fedayin(too lazy too look up spelling) evil true, but not Islamist. The foreign fighters the U.S. has caught are Pan-Arab nationalists not Islamists.

They did get a "training camp" in western Iraq, but it was in an enclave similar to the kurdish one and in the no fly zone - so we could have bombed it out of existance. They were evil too AND also anti-Saddam.

Myth 3

Yes they are under different chapters BUT there is majority support to make them binding except the U.S. would veto them. So the resolutions were passed outside of the sec. council in the general session and a huge majority did vote for them.

The will of the international community counts - when we want it to count.

[ April 08, 2003, 19:37: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I found this story:

Washington Times

This brings up an interesting question. Regardless of how we got where we are, what should we do now in Afghanistan. Increased military presence? Increased financial aid? Leave them alone and see what happens? What would you do if you were suddenly given the authority to decide what to do in Afghanistan?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's been tried before. It was called the "Oil for Food" program. The only ones who saw any of the money were Saddam and his "praetorians" (because they controlled the south), and the Kurds (because their distribution program wasn't controlled by Saddam).

So, you are not convinced that this war was a good return on the investment?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm sure this war will return the investment to both sides: at the end, Iraq have enough resources to pay any debt with US, and also, the people in USA will sleep more safe because the Saddam's weapons never will be a menace again.
In the other hand, the people of Iraq will have great returns too: what is some blood and oil, compared to receive the freedom?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I found this story:

Washington Times

This brings up an interesting question. Regardless of how we got where we are, what should we do now in Afghanistan. Increased military presence? Increased financial aid? Leave them alone and see what happens? What would you do if you were suddenly given the authority to decide what to do in Afghanistan?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A very interesting article. And your questions are not easy to answer, I think...

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">-bold added

Yes, becuase as we all know, paying off agressive dictators from financially struggling countries is always a good plan... it never results in them taking another mile (please note sarcasm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I didn't have time to read the article attached, but I think the world (perhaps just the liberator alliance) has a significant obligation to pour some serious cash into Afghanistan. More to the point from most Western World standpoints, it would be incredibly wise to pour significant amounts (ie. dumptrucks of http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ) cash into Afghanistan - otherwise you just end up with dirt poor people with nothing to lose who will open the doors to another wealthy Bin Laden http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif . Wouldn't it be better by far to create a county that is far wealthier that won't want to risk their well being? Wouldn't it be better for the world to see and acknowledge that the Western world has been benevolent and rebuilt an aggressor (a la Germany and Japan post-WWII).

There should be no half-measures here, now is the time to do great and wonderful things for the "enemy" to heap up the coals on the head of those who would claim America and the West are simply the Great Satan! It's only too bad that this wasn't done before going in to get Sadam, as it would have sent a message to all the currently insensed Muslim nations that the West was good to their word of wanting to build up the people, but remove the dictator. Unfortunately I don't think that the West has really had a very good track record lately (see support of Russia post USSR, see support level of Haiti post turnoil, see evidence of rebuilding of Afghanistan: or lack therein!)

unfortunately, I've only got 2 cents,
and that was them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 08, 2003, 23:36: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Rex, I'd rather wish that the US did declare war on North Korea, Oblierate the peninsula, and destroy east asian diplomacy than to pay them off, as that would accomplish the same thing I just listed above, except with the fact that it will cost America more with a payoff.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

To bracket Iraq and Israel in the way that Robin Cook did is to suggest that there is a moral equivalence between a murderer and someone who is having difficulty with marriage guidance counselling.

Ummm yea... Ok.... The guy is a member of a right of centre think tank that is called the Policy Exchange

Good writter though. Always makes you question what you thinking. And what he is writting.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

u know i think that the Iraqi army is staying back for the reason that when this new 'democracy' comes they can take part in their 'slice'.

So far the price of this 'democracy' is a few thousand civilans dead, wounded or missing.

That is a fact.

Herr Runsfield has mentioned that Sryia is next... CNN, FOX and those other Pre-school news sites will begin to gear up the average Joe on why their evil,,,, meanwhile The British Gov't fearful of being removed from the EU and all their work with Syria start to question this path their forced to follow.

North Korea just watches as dipolomcy is the answer there....

GodDamn those Chicken Hawks. This is going to get much worse than the cold war. And 6 million people were killed in the cold war.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I found this story:

Washington Times

This brings up an interesting question. Regardless of how we got where we are, what should we do now in Afghanistan. Increased military presence? Increased financial aid? Leave them alone and see what happens? What would you do if you were suddenly given the authority to decide what to do in Afghanistan?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The scary thing about the article is that the Washington Times is a conservative paper. If they are publishing THIS imagine how bad it really is.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I found this story:

Washington Times

This brings up an interesting question. Regardless of how we got where we are, what should we do now in Afghanistan. Increased military presence? Increased financial aid? Leave them alone and see what happens? What would you do if you were suddenly given the authority to decide what to do in Afghanistan?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The scary thing about the article is that the Washington Times is a conservative paper. If they are publishing THIS imagine how bad it really is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Regardless of what you think about the particular paper, the real question is what we should do. If we left more troops there to provide better security then we would be accused of occupying the country and trying to control Afghanistan. If we pumped more money in, one group of people would be screaming about sending lots of money overseas instead of taking care of our own people, while another group would probably accuse us of trying to buy the country. If we leave them alone then we will be accused of abandoning them when they need us the most. I cannot think of any action that would not be portrayed as evil by somebody.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Someone should take all of the Posts in this thread and save them as a historical referance. Think about it, for one of the first times in history, our comments about CURRENT events can be saved and passed down for eons to come.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

U.S. Builds Proliferation Case Against Pakistan

Summary

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has called U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell to seek clarification on new sanctions that were levied against a Pakistani nuclear research institute, which is accused of buying North Korean No Dong missiles and selling nuclear technology to Pyongyang. Details of the accusation made by a "senior" U.S. administration official, cited by the Washington Times on March 31, have technical inconsistencies, however. Given the timing of the sanctions, it appears elements of the Bush administration are trying to paint Pakistan and North Korea with the same brush -- laying the groundwork for potential action against both nations in the post-Iraq war era.

Analysis

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has called U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell after word emerged that the United States has levied sanctions against Pakistan's Kahuta Research Laboratories (KRL). The sanctions were triggered by the alleged transfer of nuclear technology to North Korea and also are related to the alleged purchase of three to six complete North Korean No Dong ballistic missiles. Pakistan has denied both charges.
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Though in reality the sanctions themselves do little -- KRL does not trade with U.S. companies anyway -- the political impact is already being felt. And by raising the issue of Pakistani participation in North Korea's nuclear program both directly and through arms purchases, it is evident that there are at least some elements in the U.S. administration intent on ensuring that Pakistan is clearly linked to the North Korean issue.

With Pakistan already closely monitored for its possible role in harboring al Qaeda and Taliban members, there is an apparent movement in Washington to define the post-Iraq U.S. strategy as simultaneous confrontations with Pakistan and North Korea.

This report is from WWW.STRATFOR.COM, if you want the full thing, just buy a subscription.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dang right!
This are my comments:
1- The Taliban is going to retake Afghanistan.
2- Al Qaeda will WMD at least one city in the US.
3- North Korea, oh well, hard to predict their next move. But I would bet my bottom dollar that China is behind them. I can't imagine those little pricks upsetting the Empire without the approval of uncle Red.
4- Irak, this is the hardest to see. My guess is Saddam will survive somehow, and the war will extend at least into the next year. I don't think the Iraki army can defeat the US, cause even if they do then next year a new US army of 3 millions instead of 300 thousands would be riding on Baghdad.
The worst thing about the Iraki war is that it have become obvious that a country without nukes AND ICBMs is easy pick for the big fishes. I don't like the message this is sending to the Arab world, because you have to realize that is just a matter of time until they get nukes. Doesn't matter how far ahead the west is, the 3rd world will catch up, whether in 5 or 50 years.

Besides, our greatest weakness is not open war, but terrorism, and they know that. The worst thing I see about terrorism is that unlike in regular warfare, in terrorism weapons never become obsolete. A WW2 vintage 80mm mortar or an M1 Garand will never be obsolete for terrorist use. Especially for suicidal terrorist use. So I can see the war on terror Lasting ages.....

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The coalition made it clear from the start they wouldn't mind if the Iraqi Regular army and Republican Guard soldiers simply left their units and went home. The intention was always to destroy the regime from the top down as much as possible.

At this early stage there are very few "facts" available, but if you count the wounded civilians then a few thousand is a very realistic expectation. Of course every innocent casualty is tragic, but when the dust clears and some independant verification is possible I believe that the numbers of civilian dead will be astoundingly low considering the level of conflict that has taken place.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

hey geo is that you at dailykos ???

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gotta go somewhere when Shrapnel is down. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

If any one is interested, if Shrapnel goes down, try out Fyrons Forums as they are a great alternative site. I mean that. They look great, and he is always adding new things. check out his instant Graemlins selection.

[ April 09, 2003, 16:32: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd like to quote a fantastic pair of UK comics you may have heard of called Fry and Laurie. I first heard them perform the following song about 10 years ago in a Texan accent and I think it sums up Bush's attitude quite nicely...

Well, the world is facing problems getting bigger every day,
They've got a greenhouse over Texas and recession's on the way,
Although people tell you that this planet's dying fast,
Well, I ain't seen a problem yet can't be solved by kicking ***.

Kickin' ***, (KICKIN AY-***)
Kickin' *** is what we do,
Kickin' ***, (KICKIN AY-***)
Iron foot in the velvet shoe.
We don't care whose *** we kick, if we're ever all alone,
We just stand in front of the mirror, and try and kick our own.

Well, we kicked *** in Grenada and we kicked *** in Iraq,
We kicked the *** out of the ozone layer, now they say we've gotta kick
it back,
We'll kick the *** of cancer and we'll kick the *** of AIDS,
And as for Global Warming, well, just kick *** wearing shades.

Kickin' ***, (KICKIN AY-***)
Kickin' *** is what we do,
Kickin' ***, (KICKIN AY-***)
Iron foot in the velvet shoe.
We don't care whose *** we kick, if we're ever all alone,
We just stand in front of the mirror, and try and kick our own.

Well, you can haul your *** or shut your *** or bust an *** is fine,
And there ain't no better place to put your *** than on the line,
But if you're like us, (YEE-HAA!) Thank you,
And you won't take second best,
You'll put your kickin' boots on, and kick like all the rest.
Thankyou.

(AWOOOOOOOO! SING THE SONG, VERN!)

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

We seem to have arrived at the beginning of the end of the conflict chapter of this intervention. And I do think that intervention is how history will record this. As it turns out, there were quite a lot of Iraqis that hated Saddam but were much too fearful to show their displeasure, especially after the back stabbing they received 11 years ago. The remains of the regime have fled to Syria, which has a long history of providing sanctuary to despots and murders. Perhaps the UN will try to extradite them for trial, or perhaps freedom will be found to be contagious once again. It sure spread across the former Warsaw Pact nations in a hurry once it was discovered.

Now more than ever, Iraq needs the support of the world, as they begin to form a new government and restore services and order. They do not need the old usurpers returning to demand payment on deals that were made with Saddam, and they do not need to be rearmed. I personally think that the UN should be involved in so far as their abilities go. They should provide health services and humanitarian aid. Security can be best provided by the US and its coalition allies at this time, and the formation of a government should be left to the people of Iraq. They do not need over 100 nations trying to broker a government that will be favorable to their own personal interests.

It is also of note that this event has received more real time coverage than any conflict in history, and at the same time had the truth spun to the left or right of center in amounts that will probably damage the reputations of many news services irreparably. In America we used to limit the amount of news outlets that any one organization could hold. This was to limit the editorial influence of the wealthy powerful owners. I personally feel that it time to re impose these limits. Right now we have MS-NBC and CNN giving us partial truth from the left and FOX giving us partial truth from the right. I think we were all smart enough to realize what was going on, opinion was being presented as news. I don’t like this when it is against my position and I find it embarrassing when it supports my position. I found myself reading the raw releases, and then not posting at times because of the slewed positions that the large news services were taking.

In the end, it has worked more or less as advertised. The fat lady has yet to sing, but I think I hear her warming up. And I must say that for all of the regrettable damage this war has done to the everyday people of Iraq, it has been less than what the sanctions were doing. The sanctions were not hurting Saddam and his at all; he still lived the life of a king. He lacked for nothing and this must be laid at the feet of the Nations that were violating the embargo and the UN who was tasked with the enforcement. We need no longer name names; the records will address this as they become public. The Iraqi people seemed to have lacked for everything, the living conditions of these people were much worse than had been reported in the west. This will be the worst failure that the UN ever passed off on the world. Food for oil was a sham. And I bet the involved parties do everything they can to see that this program is never fully audited and examined.

The lesson here is that while this administration has not been totally forthcoming about this, they did have a workable plan. The WMD are still missing, but from the reaction of the Iraqi people, I don’t think it will matter. Personally I think we will find them as people began to try to make amends for their involvement with Saddam. But who knows. The second lesson is that the Major News Services don’t give a damn about hard news. Everything is just an opportunity to make Ratings numbers. They have been allowed to slant the news and then editorialize it to fit the political agendas of the owners. Everyone is asking “what next”? Will we loose Afghanistan? Will wee invade Syria? I say who cares. What ever happens I would just like to be able to get the facts read the editorial opinions and then come to my own conclusions. For this government’s next action, I think we need to reform the news industry. And I think that a return to limiting the ability of any one organization to reach markets is the way to do this. Then I think that the FCC should ban the collection of news Ratings numbers from broadcast news shows. Broadcast new was meant to be a service that the broadcasters provided to their viewers. It was part of the licensing requirements in the old days. Now news is one of the largest revenue producers the networks have, and they are compelled to slant the information in their endless pursuit of profits and Ratings. Of this I have had enough! Just tell me what happened, and who did what to whom. I will decide if I think it is good or bad.

From what we are seeing now, we all know where this thing goes next. All that is in doubt is how long it takes to spin down, and how many times it comes to blows as the Iraqis learn to set aside their internal differences. In closing, I hope that there are plenty of signs to go around. Because there were a lot of experts paraded across the news by large corporations that sell news. And right now I am thinking that I am glad that I don’t have to listen to the spin that they will have to put on their views. The combat part of the war was not a blood bath. And while civilian casualties are all regrettable, they have been very light up to this point. In the coming months, we will hear things that were good and we will here things that were bad. We will decide that things could have been done differently, and we will hear that some parts were not needed at all. This is as it should be, and I can only hope that both sides of the issue will learn from this. What ever happens, it gives me a good feeling when I see so many people who have nothing, acting so happy about it. We should all strive to never take our freedom for granted again. We sit here and argue about the rights and wrongs of this war as we ***** about the price of gas and how much the war will cost. And the whole time we forget that these people face summery death should they be overheard complaining about their situation or the way they were governed. I am ashamed that I completely overlooked the horror that these people lived day to day. We should all put ourselves in their position for a moment. Were we them, everyone here who posted a derogatory comment about President Bush Clinton Bush Sr. Regan Carter Ford or Nixon would be in jail. Our wives would be in jail, our sons would be in jail. Our daughters would be worse off than that. The majority of us would be killed for speaking this way during a war. Our parents would also be punished, and at least forced to relocate to an undeveloped area. Everyone we spoke to would have become a suspect with many arrested. After 30 plus years of this, I am amazed that these people are not still hunkered down in their homes. To still be here to day, they learned to survive, and in Iraq that seems to have been to never be noticed. I solute the silent majority of Iraq. And I hope that the future hold opportunity and happiness for them. I also hope that the US protects this freedom that we have given them as surly as it protects the freedoms that America enjoys. And the freedoms that American lives have purchased for countless millions in the past.

PS:

I was going to let this pass, but what the hell. It has been fashionable and popular to trash the reputation of the United States in the past few months. Just as it was fun to razz the French for their defense of Saddam. And I hope that you have all enjoyed the debates and sparring as much as I have. A good disagreement opens the mind to outside views and ideas. But we should all take a moment and reflect on the fact that the freedom we enjoyed while doing this was paid for with the blood of America and its allies. And we do it on a medium that was developed to ensure that the Soviets could not decapitate America in a first strike. I doubt that a Nazify’d Europe would be so chatty and free to speak their mind today, and I seriously doubt that the Soviets would have ever allowed a basically free uncensored uncontrolled medium such as the internet to fall into common use by it citizens. This was an American expression of freedom. The most basic freedom, the ability to say what is on ones mind be it right or wrong.

To those who were offended by my statements, I offer no apologies. If you feel that you are owed one, well then email me, I’ll hear you out. But the reason that people don’t discuss politics and religion in mixed company is because of the hard feelings that can occur. I look forward to the next hot off topic thread that consumes this forum. This one is about over I think, with all that has happened up to now, I doubt there is much left that will seem worth much debate in at this late date.

[ April 09, 2003, 18:17: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

from www.stratfor.com

1919 GMT - The only militants thus far to seize on the opportunity presented by the war in Iraq have been those in Afghanistan. Their campaign apparently began when U.S. President George W. Bush issued an ultimatum to Saddam Hussein to step down within 48 hours or face war. Guerilla forces in Afghanistan have attacked U.S. and coalition forces across the country, and Afghan President Hamid Karzai has virtually become a prisoner in his palace in Kabul.

The most daring attacks have come in Zabul, Paktika, Paktia and Hilmad -- where Afghan troops reportedly surrendered to Taliban forces. The Afghan troops' weapons were confiscated, and they were freed with a warning not to cooperate with coalition troops.

Reports emerging from Kabul indicate that the Taliban and Hizb e-Islami forces have recaptured much of the eastern and southeastern Afghanistan. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar reportedly is leading the resistance, although the appointed provisional governors remain nominally in charge of the areas. The situation likely will deteriorate further in the coming weeks.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bear in mind a couple of things...

1) The southeast portion of Afghanistan has always been the home of the pro-Taliban tribes.

2) "Control" or "re-capture" is a pretty vague notion in a country as atomized (i.e. lots of isolated pockets of population) as Afghanistan is.

3) The best public source of MILINT and RUMINT that I know of, StrategyPage.com, actually has the *Coalition* as being on the offensive in the south lately...

Strategy Page's Afghanistan Report

[ April 10, 2003, 14:17: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]