Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Check this out:

"Has anyone noticed an indifference in the precincts of the far Left to the fatalities of 9/11 and the horrors of Saddam Hussein?

Right after the 9/11 attack, German composer Karlheinz Stockhausen called it "the greatest work of art for the whole cosmos." Eric Foner, an ornament of Columbia University's Marxist firmament, trivialized it by announcing himself unsure "which is more frightening: the horror that engulfed New York City or the apocalyptic rhetoric emanating daily from the White House." Norman Mailer called the suicide hijackers "brilliant."

More recently, it appears that none of the millions of antiwar demonstrators have a bad word to say about Saddam Hussein nor an iota of sympathy for those oppressed, tortured and murdered by his regime. Instead, they vent fury against the American president and British prime minister.

Why is the Left nonchalant about the outrages committed by al Qaeda and Baghdad?

Lee Harris, an Atlanta writer, offers an explanation in a recent issue of the Hoover Institution's journal, Policy Review. He does so by stepping way back and recalling Karl Marx's central thesis about the demise of capitalism resulting from an inevitable sequence of events:

Business profits decline in the industrial countries;

Bosses squeeze their workers;

Workers become impoverished;

Workers rebel against their bosses, and

Workers establish a socialist order.
Everything here hangs on workers growing poorer over time - which, of course, did not happen. In fact, Western workers became richer (and increasingly un-revolutionary). By the roaring 1950s, most of the Left realized that Marx got it wrong.

But rather than give up on cherished expectations of socialist revolution, Harris notes, Marxists tweaked their theory. Abandoning the workers of advanced industrial countries, they looked instead to the entire populations of poor countries to carry out the revolution. Class analysis went out the window, replaced by geography.

This new approach, known as "dependencia theory," holds that the First World (and the United States above all) profits by forcefully exploiting the Third Word. The Left theorizes that the United States oppresses poor countries; thus Noam Chomsky's formulation that America is a "leading terrorist state."

For vindication of this claim, Marxists impatiently await the Third World's rising up against the West. Sadly for them, the only true revolution since the 1950s was Iran's in 1978-79. It ended with militant Islam in power and the Left in hiding.

Then came 9/11, which Marxists interpreted as the Third World (finally!) striking back at its American oppressor. In the Left's imagination, Harris explains, this attack was nothing less than "world-historical in its significance: the dawn of a new revolutionary era."

Only a pedant would point out that the suicide hijackers hardly represented the wretched of the earth; and that their objectives had nothing at all to do with socialism and everything to do with - no, not again! - militant Islam.

So desperate is the Left for some sign of true socialism, it overlooks such pesky details. Instead, it warily admires al Qaeda, the Taliban and militant Islam in general for doing battle with the United States. The Left tries to overlook militant Islam's slightly un-socialist practices - such as its imposing religious law, excluding women from the workplace, banning the payment of interest, encouraging private property and persecuting atheists.

This admiring spirit explains the Left's nonchalant response to 9/11. Sure, it rued the loss of life, but not too much. Dario Fo, the Italian Marxist who won the 1997 Nobel Prize for literature, explains: "The great [Wall Street] speculators wallow in an economy that every year kills tens of millions of people with poverty, so what is 20,000 dead in New York?"

The same goes for Saddam Hussein, whose gruesome qualities matter less to the Left than the fact of his confronting and defying the United States. In its view, anyone who does that can't be too bad - never mind that he brutalizes his subjects and invades his neighbors. The Left takes to the streets to assure his survival, indifferent both to the fate of Iraqis and even to their own safety, clutching instead at the hope that this monster will somehow bring socialism closer.

In sum: 9/11 and the prospect of war against Saddam Hussein have exposed the Left's political self-delusion, intellectual bankruptcy and moral turpitude. "

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Do you really think that the people would still hate us if they enjoyed the same freedoms as us?

As for religon...no where in the Koran does it say to hate Americans and blow yourself up to kill the infidels. if the people were able to eliminate the fanatics from power we would not have these issues.

Another note...Jihad is constantly being taken out of context by these fanatics and suicide bombers to suite their needs. (Much like the Christian fanatics take specific exerts from the bible to suite theirs) The Jihad is the battle between good and evil that every person battles internally in determineing their own fate...it was never to be taken against other people.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Of course yes.
If would exist a free election in all the Muslim world today, I can bet Ossama Bin Ladin would be elected president hands down.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A sick piece of opinion that assume all opposition to war are Saddam/Al Quaeda supporters. I am sure we are all able to find some equivallent trash explaining you how the USA helped 9/11 by their policie.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From this sentence I would hint the author is around 60 and has spend his prime time fighting in the cold war. Sadly he was not able to evolve. If someone were to tell him that communist ideology is gone, may be he would retire.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Aloofi, that "article" really is a heap of crap. It offers no evidence, other than a few misquoted or misguided comments from obscure lefties.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Any quote of just one word is suspicious from the start.
From the Oxford concise English Dictionary: "Brilliant: 2exceptionally clever or talented."
In terms of concept and planning, the WTC attack was brilliant. Anyone planning an attack would be looking for something that was simple, low cost, low risk and devastatingly effective. the 9/11 attacks were all of those things. The fact that loads of innocent people died wasn't brilliant, but the effectiveness and cleverness of the plan cannot be denied.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with this sentiment completely. As far as I'm GWB has desecrated the memories of the 9/11 victims by using their deaths to advance his own agenda. He has used the attack as nothing more than political currency, with which he has bought draconian anti-freedom legislation and unjustifiable warmongering in the middle east. Sure 9/11 was scary, but isn't an Orwellian America even scarier? Do we really have to start reeling out those "he who is willing to sacrifice freedom for security..." quotes again?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As has been mentioned several times lately, an anti-war stance is NOT a pro-Saddam stance. He is a monster, but I don't believe for one minute that the proper way to get rid of a monster is to feed him to an even bigger one.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So now I get to be ignored. Thanks.

DS:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure it was. That was a big part of the plan, after all. Just destroying the WTC on off-days when less people are there (or late at night) would not have had as profound an effect as destroying the WTC when lots of people were in it. Using lots of innocent people in the attack itself was also rather clever because it magnified the effects of terror from the action. Incredibly wrong, yes. Brilliant, definitely.

[ April 11, 2003, 19:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, don't take it on me. I never supported the Iraki war because, frankly, it doesn't go along with my interests, since the American victory means the creation of a Palestinian state to "compensate" the Arabs for the loss of Irak, which, as you know, means the destruction of Israel.

This article I quoted I founded it interesting because it kind of match with the European anti-Israeli Left, which its extremely annoying, and definitively not interested in peace in the Middle East.
My question is, how can a liberal leftish not support the only Democracy in the Middle East, the only country with women rights, religion freedom, freedom of expression and so on, how can they support the Palestinians when they have "honor killings" against their women for the simplest reasons, when they execute any Palestinian wanting peace with Israel and don't even have a peace movement as Israel have.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you really think that's why the Brits invaded?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you really think that's why the Brits invaded?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow, why would have Saddam helped us win?

Why accuse us of have been helped by Saddam?
We did help in Gulf War I, even if our help was merely symbolical.
We could have helped now too. No reason to piss us off.

BTW some say that the terrorist attacks we suffered in the AMIA and Israel Embassy were "punishment" for that help. And that that was the reason we didn't help now.

[ April 11, 2003, 23:57: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Primitive, Thank you for that clarifcation.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This topic is still hot!!!
Reading the Ashkan's post, I believed he wanted to state that USA/UK were looking for any excuse to justify their invasion to Iraq... not that Argentina has been helped by Saddam! (Check his other post about the Rugby!)

Che Andrés, tranquilo!!! Además, si el Turco vuelve seguro que en la invasión a Siria, Argentina dice PRESENTE!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 01:00: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As has been mentioned several times lately, an anti-war stance is NOT a pro-Saddam stance. He is a monster, but I don't believe for one minute that the proper way to get rid of a monster is to feed him to an even bigger one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The reason this keeps comming up I think is that fankly a lot (not all by any means and probably still a minority) of anti-war protesters are pro-Saddam. I read a poll taken after the war that said that 33% of people in France and and even higher % in Russia actually wanted the coalition to lose the war!! That's pretty pro-Saddam in my book. Your own post, which is a bit cryptic, seems to say that you prefer Saddam over GWB???

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The poll and the number are truth.
But what is missing is that the poll was made right after a US senator declared that France was now a strategical enemy of the USA.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I know MB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Perhaps I should have put more smilies to show I was kidding.
My point was that it wasn't a good excuse because it would piss off a potential ally (no matter if insignificant).

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif :DWe all know it was "the hand of god" because Maradona is God:) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Espero que ni vuelva el capicua que ya hizo suficiente bolonqui en su momento ni que haya una invasión a Siria en la que decir o no presente. (también espero ganar el quini y no tener que seguir laburando:eek:)

DavidG, the reason is that pro-war militants allways think that anyone not supporting them is supporting the enemy.
Note there's also a difference beteween anti-american and pro-saddam.
Many in France and Russia are anti-american and would like to see them lose anywhere.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Aloofi:
For the twentieth time...

DavidG:
For the twentyfirst time...

Even a statement that you wanted the US to loose (BTW, I was not among them), is not (nesecarily) pro Saddam. It may just be a choice of the lesser evil. A local badguy without the means of hurting anyone not in his imediate vicinity, over a mad Texan with the migthiest armed forces in the world and the will to use them for no particular reason at all.

Fyron:
Your welcome.

Hunkpapa:
Introducing democracy in the region ? What about Afghanistan ?
It is now almost 16 months since the appointment of an interim (read “puppet”) government in Afghanistan. The goal was to have general democratic elections within 18 months. I did a quick search and could not find any information of a planned election. I don’t say Kasai’s government is a bad choice, it’s probably the best possible solution at the moment, but broken promises are not the way to teach the region the great benefits of a democracy lifestyle.

Thermodyne:
The news you promised we would get Last evening. The news that would break goverments and prove once and for all the USA was right, didn't make my local news here in Norway (censorship ?). Would you mind updating me.

Geo:
I owe you an apology. I have basically reread the whole thread, and you have always beem clear and consistent in your statements. Of course I disagree vehemently with you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yea I heard you the first 20 times. It is really not necessary to repeat it over and over. For the 22nd time I agree being anti-war does not mean you are pro-Saddam. I also happen to think that anyone who is so intensly anti-American that they actually wanted Iraq to win the war is pro-Saddam.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Primitive,

SOME pro war people aren't going to change their minds even though the reasons for the war have proven to be erroneous - I won't produce the laundry list. Who wants to admit they are wrong? Bush got us in this war so now they have to support it no matter what. They are doing the same thing I am sure MOST of them claimed Clinton supporters were doing during Monicagate. The only difference is that the way Bush has lied is a lot worse.

Their attitude is irrational so why continue the debate?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think we all have access to un-censored news. In this case, the UN’s team issued a public statement/request and then the news just stopped. Looks to be locked down tighter than what the Soviets had taken away from them on the road to Syria.

What has made the news is that some detectors set to look for Plutonium were set off at a plant that the inspectors had declared clean, but it was in an area that they may not have known existed. An announcement was made and the UN’s regulatory team stated their intent to take over. I doubt that will be allowed to happen because of the national make up of the group. All of this made the tube on Friday. But then the news just stopped! This can mean a lot of things, one or two good and the rest very bad. But it does show that the inspectors were not inspecting properly. Two previously inspected facilities have been found to be in violation of the cease fire accord. Both were cleared by the inspection teams in the Last few months.

We now have two news blackouts in this war. What is going on with the (alleged) Plutonium and what was taken from the Russians on the road to Syria?

http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Press/.../prn0304.shtml

I just got this link; man these guys have lost their signs! The materials were under IAEA lockdown, but the IAEA was gone. I guess they just trusted Saddam to stop his research and assumed that he would no longer try to build a bomb. I’m not a nuclear physicist or engineer, but even I know that Plutonium is not something that can be easily overlooked during an inspection. And it is not the type of stuff that can be hidden in a tool shed. It can reach critical mass in very small amounts, and particles of it can kill when inhaled by humans. Strap a few grams of this stuff to some Nitrate bombs and you could cause a real big problem.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Thermo, I as well await a thourough accounting of the nuclear site, but it is way to early to be claiming any sort of coverup. It's entirely possible that the fleeing Iraqi's or even coalition forces broke open some containers with plain old waste products and that is what could be causing the high levels of radioactivity.

What everybody needs to understand is this process will take some time, just as those attempting to inspect before the war were saying. But at least now that we don't have the regime actively working to deceive the inspectors there are better prospects for finding the truth.

So far the coalition forces have found hundreds, by some accounts over a thousand sites of interest. Of these only a couple dozen have been thouroughly inspected. This would be a slow process under good conditions, in the middle of a shooting war it's even slower.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

yea rex i believe the anti war people stated their ground on the immense human suffering war would bring and the consequences of the war.

I am sorry to say this Rex but your country reminds me of another country in the 30's... In its early stages. Pray that the orange smoothie never hits red alert. The concept of a police state scares me. They have had the practice in the inner cities for years. But hey it can't happen here. People are not being picked up by the govn't without due process. Nah... Not here. Drummed up enemies everywhere you look. The agencies that failed you in the first place need more money as a small threat becomes the uber threat of all time , and endless in its reaches. America to me is almost the classic dictonary form of fascism. Traits of classic fascism include: strong nationalism, expansionism, belligerent militarism, meshing of big business and government with a corporate/government oligarchy, subVersion of democracy and human rights, disinformation spread by constant propaganda and tight corporate/government control of the press.

Then again I could be rambling on.... But it is a thought siting their in the back of my head....

So I post it here. To be slammed and agreed upon. Or I just want to keep this thread going and going and going.

P.S. 1 week has gone by and their is still no democracy in Iraq.... Just Chaos... And whats with bringing the Baath Party leadership back to help form this 'democracy' Wasn't that the 3rd reason the war was for, to rid the Iraqi people of the brutal regime that was in charge... This is just beginning.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Tesco, you missed 'demonizing any form of opposition as traitorous'. If you don't agree with the war plans of The Great Leader you are automatically a beady-eyed communist secretly plotting to over-throw the government by using the anti-war protests as front.

Speaking of Clinton, there is a growing movement to use the impeachment process properly, that is to boot criminals out of office instead of harrass the politically undesirable. Check out:

www.votetoimpeach.org

for example. This is 'grass roots' though I'm sure the attack-dog press can find some evil communist links. Anyone not actually in the ruling corporate elite has got a second cousin's friend's friend who was once seen reading Das Capital... But some members of the US Congress are also daring to say the word 'impeachment' out loud occasionally. I'm sure they will be called communists in short order. You'd think the neo-fascisti could find a new buzz-word more than a decade after the fall of the Evil Empire, wouldn't you? Ah well. If it grows to the point where actual hearings can be held we'll be in the fun position of watching Ari Fleischer playing the Iraqi information minister and denying that the Congressional Infidels are anywhere near the impeachment process.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the reports of 'finds' at Iraqi sites. Any nuclear facility is going to have hot spots. Especially one run by cronies of a third-world despot. They were not chosen for proven abilities but loyalty, remember. He would have to have the best party loyalists in charge of his nuclear programs. They are not likely to have been especially competent and spills of radioactive material do not make 'proof' of a weapons program deliberately over-looked by the IAEA. Of course, the US Military is now in complete control of all those sites and it's not unlikely that 'interesting' things will appear in the future. I'm not sure how well the origin of refined nuclear materials can be traced. Does anyone know if chemical traces can be used to identify the original ores or the refining processes used? It might be that they can get away with planting what they need to find.

[ April 13, 2003, 19:28: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quien es el Turco?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

It seems like Al-Jazeera have already "found" the first signs of anti-US feelings in Irak's civilians........

Quote:
"Anti-US protest in Baghdad

A noisy crowd of Iraqis gathered around Baghdad’s Palestine Hotel and raised anti-American slogans on Sunday, signaling that the popular mood in the besieged capital was fast turning against the US troops.

Fed up with the anarchy and looting as also the breakdown of essential services ever since the start of the war, the protestors yelled that the US troops were doing nothing to help restore normal life in the city.


“They are guarding oil facilities, but have not done anything as yet to restore essential services like power and water, “ alleged Ali Zuhair. Another of the protestors said that the “Americans were interested only in oil.”

Stung by the pitch of the protests, US soldiers quickly set up barricades round the hotel to keep the protestors at bay.

But the US soldiers could do little to silence the protestors. They shouted slogans in praise of Iraq and warned against any attempt to thrust upon the Iraqis a military of a “foreign” government.

“Iraq, you are our beloved country and your sun will never set,” they chanted.

As everyone in the crowd expressed their collective dismay over the anarchy, one university teacher said he had witnessed some US soldiers encouraging the looters to plunder a university.

“I saw for myself how the US troops goaded Iraqis to loot and burn the University of Technology,” claimed the professor Shakir Aziz.

Elsewhere too, Iraqis both inside and outside of Baghdad poured scorn over the US and British troops for having done precious little to prevent the country from spiraling into lawlessness.

The dean of Basra university, Abdul Jabar al-Khalifa was gripped with rage as he surveyed the charred remains of what once used to be his office. “Is this freedom of Iraq or the freedom of thieves,” he questioned.

Southern Iraq’s prestigious university has suffered terrible losses in the anarchy that followed the war. Looters over ran it and computers, air conditioning units and furniture were carried away before the mobs set large parts of the campus on fire.

The disconsolate University dean was convinced that the British were to be blamed. “They didn’t do anything to stop the looters. I hold them therefore responsible,” he said.

Other Basra residents were equally bitter of the British troops. “They did not make any effort for the first few days. They did not move until too late,” alleged Al-Habib, a US-returned academic.

As in Basra, many in Baghdad have begun to eye the foreign troops more as villains than “liberators.”

“The Last few days have been worse than all my days under Saddam,” insisted Ahmed al-Khatib, an elderly resident.

Many also suspected sinister designs behind the lawlessness. In between patrolling his neighborhood of Al Mansura against looters, Ahmed Aziz al-Hadithi alleged that “the looters were spies bought off by those who wanted to destroy Iraq.”

“One day or another, honest Iraqis are going to force out the Americans, not for the sake of Saddam Hussein, but for the sake of Iraq,” Hadithi said. --- Al Jazeera with agency inputs

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

From the Observer:

Welcome Aboard The Iraq Gravy Train


Well, the war has been a huge success, and I guess it's time for congratulations all round. And wow! It's hard to know where to begin.
First, I'd like to congratulate Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) and the Bechtel Corporation, which are the construction companies most likely to benefit from the reconstruction of Iraq. Contracts in the region of $1 billion should soon coming your way, chaps. Well done! And what with the US dropping 15,000 precision-guided munitions, 7,500 unguided bombs and 750 cruise missiles on Iraq so far and with more to come, there's going to be a lot of reconstruction. It looks like it could be a bonanza year.
Of course, we all know that KBR is the construction side of Halliburton, and it has been doing big business with the military ever since the Second World War. Most recently, it got the plum job of constructing the prison compound for terrorists suspects at Guantanamo Bay. Could be a whole lot more deluxe chicken coops coming your way in the next few months, guys. Stick it to 'em.
I'd also like to add congratulations to Dick Cheney, who was chief executive of Halliburton from 1995 to 2000, and who currently receives a cheque for $1 million a year from his old company. I guess he may find there's a little surprise bonus in there this year. Well done, Dick.
Congratulations, too, to former Secretary of State, George Schultz. He's not only on the board of Bechtel, he's also chairman of the advisory board of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group with close ties to the White House committed to reconstructing the Iraqi economy through war. You're doing a grand job, George, and I'm sure material benefits will be coming your way, as sure as the Devil lives in Texas.
Oh, before I forget, a big round of appreciation for Jack Sheehan, a retired general who sits on the Defence Policy Board which advises the Pentagon. He's a senior vice president at Bechtel and one of the many members of the Defence Policy Board with links to companies that make money out of defence contracts. When I say 'make money' I'm not joking. Their companies have benefited to the tune of $76bn just in the Last year. Talk about a gravy train. Well, Jack, you and your colleagues can certainly look forward to a warm and joyous Christmas this year.
It;s been estimated that rebuilding Iraq could cost anything from $25bn to $100bn and the great thing is that the Iraqis will be paying for it themselves out of their future oil revenues. What's more, President Bush will be able to say, with a straight face, that they're using the money from Iraqi oil to benefit the Iraqi people. 'We're going to use the assets of the people of Iraq, especially their oil assets, to benefit their people,' said Secretary of State Colin Powell, and he looked really sincere. Yessir.
It's so neat it makes you want to run out and buy shares in Fluor. As one of the world's biggest procurement and construction companies, it recently hired Kenneth J. Oscar, who, as acting assistant secretary of the army, took care of the Pentagon's $35bn-a-year procurement budget. So there could also be some nice extra business coming its way soon. Bully for them.
But every celebration has its serious side, and I should like to convey my condolences to all those who have suffered so grievously in this war. Particularly American Airlines, Qantas and Air Canada, and all other travel companies which have seen their customers dwindle, as fear of terrorist reprisals for what the US and Britain have done in Iraq begins to bite.
My condolences also to all those British companies which have been disappointed in their bid to share in the bonanza that all this wonderful high-tech military firepower has created. I know it must be frustrating and disheartening for many of you, especially in the medical field, knowing there are all those severed limbs, all that burnt flesh, all those smashed skulls, broken bones, punctured spleens, ripped faces and mangled children just crying out for your products.
You could be making a fortune out of the drugs, serums and surgical hardware, and yet you have to stand on the sidelines and watch as US drug companies make a killing.
Well, Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian President, has some words of comfort for us all. As he recently pointed out, this adventure by Bush and Blair will have created such hatred throughout the Arab world, that 100 new bin Ladens will have been created.
So all of us here in Britain, as well as in America, shouldn't lose heart. Once the Arab world starts to take its revenge, there should be enough reconstruction to do at home to keep business thriving for some years to come.

Terry Jones.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quien es el Turco?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The "Turco" (Turk), is one of the popular nicknames of Carlos Saúl Menem.
He is a very controversial character in the Argentinean politic. Many people blame him for the current situation of Argentina… and although the accusations of corruption signed his 2 governments (the scandals with the weapons that Argentina sold to Croatia and Ecuador are just some part of them), still he has good possibilities to be President again.
Under his government, Argentina became a more close ally of USA, and he sent some symbolic troops in the GW1.
If I’m not wrong, his ancestors are from Syria, and the “joke” was that if he reach the Argentinean’s government and USA invade Syria, he could send again some symbolic troops again.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I did have a lenghty, informed and well-written reply ready to post earlier but the forum crashed at just the wrong moment. I can't be arsed to piece it all back together, but I can summarise the important points as follows:

1- Aloofi - sorry, no offence meant.
2- George Bush is an arsehole.
3- Tony Blair is an arsehole's arsehole.

EDIT: Oh yeah, here's number 4:

4- "I'm sure they will be called communists in short order. You'd think the neo-fascisti could find a new buzz-word more than a decade after the fall of the Evil Empire, wouldn't you?"

We do have a new buzz word. It's "terrorist": Precise enough to terrify the public into endorsing monstrosities, yet vague enough to be applied to anyone you want to bomb/ arrest/ vanish. Inspired.

[ April 14, 2003, 16:46: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I read this somewhere and I thought it was an eerie statement...

"We are against Dictatorship and Oppression. We believe in Democracy and Freedom. It is for this reason that we will force you to accept our way of life, weather you like it or not!

I shivered when I first read this! There is something very wrong in there somewhere!

Nuf said!

P.S. (maybe not enough)... If the Oil belongs to the Iraqi people why do they have to pay for it at the pumps? (Oh yeah, they're not paying for the oil, they're paying for the refinement process and tax!) It sounds like something is wrong in this statement too!

Poof!

[ April 14, 2003, 18:41: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

David:

It's not just about the Iraqi, if the oil belongs to Texans, Albertans or Saudis, why do they have to pay for it at the pump??

Because the oil doesn't "belong" to the Iraqi, Texan, or Albertan, it belongs to the government of the people, who then contract out the rights to develop the resource. The government of the people then recieves royalties on the oil extracted, but the contract holder now owns the oil. In the end, large company XYZ, who happens to own the oil/gas/petrolium product, can then sell it to individuals within (nearly) any country they desire... Iraq or otherwise. This is why everybody on the planet needs to pay out of pocket for gasoline, regardless of whether oil comes out of the ground in Eretria or their backyard.

I'm not certain what the policy is in Saudi Arabia, as the oil is owned not by the gov't of the people, but by the ruling family, the house of Saud. I would imagine that they too have contracted out the development to multinational companies, but have no proof of that.

Finally, I'm sure there are some countries that take care of all gas sales within their borders, but in that case it is the gov't who purchases petrolium products from the multinationals, and then turns around and sells to the people.

[ April 14, 2003, 23:12: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

DavidG
It is obviously important to repeat that message, even if it is tedious:
It is fully possible to be both Anti American (or more correctly Anti-GWB's "obey me, cause I got a big stick" policy) and Anti Saddam at the same time.

Using your kind of logic: Do you support the goverments (and the atrocities done by them), of all coalition members ? Logically you must since they are Anti Saddam too, but I would not believe that you actually supports the goverment of contries like Rwanda.

Rex
Quit !
I'm having to much fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thermo
I get the news. Think the Baron covered the "significanse" of the finds well. Of course there may be chance you are right, and something serious will be found at the plant in the future. What p.. me off is the way you presents these things. You are just adding to the general hysteria and paranoia by spreading loose rumours as facts. When you have facts, not made up propaganda, I will listen.

Tesco
Good one, but I have a little faith left in the US citizens. After all, they live in (sort of) a democracy. When they find out what the overly aggressive foreign policy really will cost them, they will get rid of GWB and his evil ogiligarchy.

Aloofi
Nice quote, obviously from a wise and well informed man.
Is this the same Terry Jones as in Monty Python ?

David
In war, truth is the first victim. Logic seems to be the second http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your logic baffles me. I do not follow it at all. Your point seems to be that none of the anti-war protesters are pro-saddam. Yes absolutly you can be anti-Saddam and anti-American. However my point was that after the war has already started anyone who wanted Iraq to win is taking a decidedly pro-Saddam view. How you can get from that to me supporting Rawanda is a mystery to me.
Do you really not believe there are any pro-Saddam people in the world?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

DavidG
Of course there are many Pro-Saddam people in the world.
But it's not all black and white, it's fully possible to be anti Saddam and anti GWB at the same time. Refusing to accept that is unlogical, just as it would have been unlogical for me to to accuse you of supporting Rwanda (which I did not do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Primitive, DavidG -
Couldn't you be anti-Saddam, anti-USA and pro-Iraq? Couldn't you be a pro-Iraqi nationalist so you get behind your leader in times of strife (even thou you don't like him), sort of what Americans call patriotic.
Isn't it like when I watch New Zealand play South Africa in the rugby I support the Kiwis even thou I don't like them, they just happen to be the lesser of two evils?

I didn't want (maybe expect) the Americans to get obliterated by a crappy third world army, but then again I don't want this warmongering to be too easy so it becomes an acceptable solution to any problem.

Tesco -
I can't believe you said what you said and nobody has jumped you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I logged on today to watch the flames but everyone was mute.
To add my bit, its the constant use of the flag that reminds me of the nazis. Everytime I see it I cringe. Australians never seem to rally too much around our national flag, but then its probabaly more to do with that other country's flag in the corner of ours than anything else. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Andres -
The "hand of god" was to get British support. If George was trying to drum up some Argentine support he would have pointed out it was Saddam who decided the Last World Cup pools http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Speaking of the soccer, looks like we'll qualify for Germany coz we don't have to play a South American team! Woo woo! We only have to beat New Zealand!! Yeh!!

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are flag wavers in this forum and posters here seem relatively well informed. You can only imagine what it's like amongst the luddites. Instead of singing the "Lied der Deutschen" though they chant "USA!, USA!, USA!."

[ April 15, 2003, 07:24: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Askan Nightbringer:
To add my bit, its the constant use of the flag that reminds me of the nazis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nationalism....
Also when i watch GWB on tv, it reminds me of Ayatollah Khomeini...(just replace Allah with God)
GWB is (also) a pure Christian Fundamentalist.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

This war was swift, and indeed not so bloody. I know it is quite easy to say when you are thousands kilometers away from the conflict, but indeed I believe this war killed less people that would have Saddham.

But when I read stratfor's writings about Syria/USA, I really wonder. The current US administration just can't topple every single country they don't like ?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ohhhh, isn't his son or grandson the boyfriend of this Britney Spear look alike that is also from Syria or something?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm a flag waver! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Don't confuse Nazism with Nationalism. Nationalism in its purest form is not agressive at all, it only cares of what happens inside its borders.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Askan Nightbringer I am currently hiding under a Tramplobombomee , trampoline. Care to join me. I have a BBQ pit , steaks , and a flat of beer.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">*looks at Aloofi's avatar

No, really?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Still not a healthy attitude imho. To only care about what goes on in your own borders is to become insular and that can only lead to feelings of superiority/ mistrust over other nations/ races which is an easy route to hatred, nazism and imperialist expansion.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

[quote]Originally posted by Aloofi:

Quote:

Don't confuse Nazism with Nationalism. Nationalism in its purest form is not agressive at all, it only cares of what happens inside its borders.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And what do you think Nazism stands for? Nazis did care for their own borders... until they decided to bring home the Sudentendeutsch from across the border...

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

[quote]Originally posted by Aloofi:

Quote:

Ohhhh, isn't his son or grandson the boyfriend of this Britney Spear look alike that is also from Syria or something?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not exactly… Think you’re talking about the Colombian “Shakira”, and the son of the ex-president Fernando de la Rua, Antonio de la Rua.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, in this imperfect world being Nationalistic beats the hell out of being imperialistic, me thinks.
Besides, if a country is hated by everyone else, an strong nationalism is the only way to survive, plus not attacking anyone and having only a defense oriented army doctrine will assure the moral higher ground, at least in a domestic sense.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But I'm saying that nationalism leads to imperialism. Think Hitler. Think British Empire. When you stop caring about johnny foreigner, you lose respect for him. When you have no respect for him, you might as well inade his country and take what's his...

Nationalism is on the increase here in the UK.
As the conservatives recoil further and further from Europe and anti-immigration hysteria increases, our extreme right is gaining more and more ground. It's under control for the moment, but I can see it getting a lot worse in the next few years.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But I think strong nationalism is one of the things that leads to a country being hated.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not really. In the Mein Kampf Hitler already made public his intention on fighting the USSR for living space. National-Socialism was not exactly a Nationalistic movement. Probably they should have been called National-Imperialism from a political point of view, and Capitalism of State from an economical side.
Of course, many Germans saw the Nazis as a national rebirth after WW1. But in my opinion the Nazi leadership itself deceived the German people changing their Nationalism into a German Imperialism, and it was anything but socialist, even though Hitler, Goebels and Hess played into National-socialist feelings in their speeches talking against class divisions and brotherhood, when at the same time they were doing big business with the german Industrial and financial oligarchies.
And lets not get into the minority discrimination, with was an easy shot of blaming everything on the jews and other minorities to blind the German people from the Imperialist war they were cooking.
To give you just some numbers, of the 500 000 jews in Germany 100 000 fought for Germany in WW1, which mean that every male in age went to war, and 12000 were killed, making the percentage of Jews killed for Germany higher than that of the other Germans.

.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Nationalism is dangerous. The stronger the feeling the more dangerous it is.

In fact any grouping that focuses strong positive feelings of US, will also focus negative feelings on THEM.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So where do you think UK politics is heading? Towards alignment with the US in opposition to Europe? I have heard in some other forums that Blair is actually making noises about trying to push approval of the Euro now. Is this true? If so, it's got to be the most ill-timed move in UK political history. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif With UK having a stronger economy than any of the continental nations, AND the current levels of tension of the Iraq affair every possible factor is against him.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

ANOTHER CONFUSED PEACE PROTESTOR

http://www.twistedmonkey.org/view/fu...0/?sort=rating

IRONIC

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, it was. You see it to narrow. Replace Germans with Nordic race/Herrenrasse and it all works out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
The problem with nationalism is that you put one nation above all other. And from this point on it will only go downhill...

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Primitive:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, just throw out opinions that don't agree with yours... great plan...

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Mephisto:

You forgot to mention that people of your own nation who don't meet the right standards are just as much victims as people of other nations. How many Germans who happened to be of the wrong political affiliation, or of low intelligence, or homosexual, were also killed by the Nazis? We can see this already in the US. People who think GWB has gone too far are 'communists' or being manipulated by them, plotting to overthrow the government. People who think Ashcroft has gone too far are 'giving aid to terrorists' -- which translates to Ashcroft saying he can arrest them just for opposing him. 'Giving aid to terrorists' is an imprisonable offense. We've had waves of hysteria before, and somehow recovered, but being in the midst of one is NOT fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ April 15, 2003, 19:56: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He has some faith in God, so he is a pure Christian Fundamentalist? I don't think so.

Askan:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Probably because it is so absurd it could be safely ignored...