Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.

Soul Vortex is definitely a solution, but the Shedu does not come with any death, nor a body slot to enable the wearing of bone armor. At 80 points a path, this is probably not something you wish to add yourself, either.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So what you are telling me is that Vanheim gets better infantry, better cavalry, better fliers, and recruitable SC's and GE Arco gets... mystics and philosophers. Can I at least have my elephants back please? Uberchariot isn't enough, especially when you figure in the Vandjarls and those valkries who are all over your mystics and priestesses.

As for temple guards being more resource-intensive... at least you aren't operating under FORCED SLOTH. Let's not forget that Vanheim and Caelum get 1 and 3 free temperature picks respectively. And besides, who gives a crap about temple guards when you have wingless/mammoth.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For 466 points? This ain't Ermor buddy. The only way I can see a Shedu doing anything productive is by incorporating soul vortex. Take 80 point paths, a forced 5+ astral, and a 125 point base cost and you are investing a lot in something you could accomplish a lot cheaper with winged boots on an Oprah.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you are misusing the SC term. A vanadrott cannot take on an entire army by itself, which is the requirement for the SC term. Arco also has better and more affordable mages than Vanheim, so it's pretty much evens out.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The valkyries won't be in your rear because you'll be bringing along a staff of storms. Chariots can also deal with valkyries as they never miss.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Astral 6, earth 4 is all that's required for the spells I listed above. That's doable with order 3, prod 1 (It's not a golden age only pretender you realize), misfortune 2, dominion 6, and a castle.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ever try a hangadrott with full gear, wraith sword, and soul vortex? Find me a better investment for 400 gold. I'll promise you one thing... it'll own the **** out of a Shedu any day.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sweet. Now my wind riders are 125 gold heavy cavalry and my icarids are 28 gold peLasts! I'm sure my ground forces will be more than a match for einheres and vans.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You realize that pretender loses to a hangadrott right? Just checking. Feel free to test it out yourself.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That it will kill a shedu is really irrelevant, since you don't pick a Shedu for killing other thugs, you pick it to kill normal troops very well. I wouldn't bother putting a full set of equipment on it in the first place either, since there are any number of spells that can deal with a unit with such low hitpoints. Counting only the 400 gold you spent, then two mystics with the appropriate skills should do. Since he will likely have lightning immunity, then I would bring along a fire 2 mystic, and a water mystic. One casts incinerate or astral fires, the other casts frozen heart. Sure you can make him immune to three of the elements, but then your equipment will lack either magic resistance, regeneration or luck. If we also include the gem costs of all that equipment you put on him, then arco can start to bring along golems with similar equipment.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, since Vanheim would have brought storms even if you hadn't, it's doesn't change the issue at all. And yes, your ground forces can be a match for his since you will also have much more magical research completed, and have the ability to use communion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So? It's not a pretender that's made to take out other SCs. It's made to kill normal troops. Arco

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Read what Norfleet said again. You just don't get it do you?

[ June 21, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

A few things people have missed about the Shedu that I think bear mentioning:

1) It's unique in that it is the only Pretender in the game to get both Earth and Astral magic naturally. This means that, if you want high Dominion, Earth magic, and Astral magic, he is the best choice for pretender.

2) He plays into the natural strengths of GE Arco. Magical research is one of GE's best strengths. Another is the fact that it gets Air, Earth, and Astral gems naturally. This allows for synergy.

3) He is a very multifaceted Pretender, for being a nonhumanoid. Early-game, he _can_ take provinces. Mid-game, he can research, site-search, forge Crystal Coins, Dwarven Hammers, and other utility items. Late-game, he can be a Golem factory or continue in the mid-game roles.

4) His blessings are very mage-friendly. While it's true that Arco gets no 'real' sacred mages, there is always the Shroud of the Battle Saint. You have to decide if Reinvigoration + Magic Resistance on Armor that costs 5S is good enough for you, though.

Do I think all of this warrants his cost? Well, I think he may be overpriced. Bringing him down to 75 (to equal the Great Mother) might be a good idea. I will point out, though, that no one can beat him in his bailiwick, not even the human pretenders, and he's far more survivable than even the giants.

Consider the following Pretender:

Pretender: Shedu
Cost: 125
Scales: Order3 Sloth1 Growth1 Magic1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 96
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21
Total Cost: 125 + 160 + 80 + 96 + 21 = 482

Note this is without taking Misfortune, and taking Growth-1 (which I'm sure most people would find a waste).

This would make the Shroud:
5 Prot
0 Enc
+3 MRL (this isn't going to do much)
Reinvig 2
+1 MR

For 5 Astral Pearls. This path selection would also directly benefit any sacred mages you run across (Amazon Priestesses, Shamen, Witches, etc.).

Should the Shedu be lowered to 75 points, I could afford one more scale and a 6 Dominion. If I took Misfortune-2, I could go to Earth-6, increasing the bless effect and making the effect of some 'Construction summons' (Enliven Statues) more effect.

In any event, I think the Shedu offers more than people are seeing right now.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pretender: Nataraja
Cost: Squat
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 222
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total Cost: 0 + 160 + 80 + 244 + 21 = 505

Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:13: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You both picked the same castle, and the nataraja is certainly not as useful in the early game as the Shedu. That's why I'm still wondering what, exactly are the game parameters that you are using to determine that it is never worthwhile. What about a 3 player VP game on Brittain for example?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Or lol even better...

Pretender: Wurm
Cost: 75
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Air 1 Nature 1
Cost: 100
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total cost: 426 points (spend the rest as you wish)

Now you got a much better expander, and later in the game he can sit in the lab and forge rainbow armor instead of shroud of the battle saint!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He's trying to demonstrate that in order to get a earth 4 /astral 4 blessing on your mystics through use of a shroud of the battle saint, the Shedu is the best pretender choice. Why one would go to such lengths to achieve such a thing is irrelevant. Clearly the Nataraja is superior, even under the conditions most favorable to the Shedu. You could also achieve similar results with a Son of the Sun (the astral Version), which is of course available to arcoscophile.

No, even when seeking the allpowerful earth/astral blessing, the Shedu still sucks. Sorry.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:40: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Read what Norfleet said again. You just don't get it do you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I get it. But that is why you don't send big tramplers in alone - you send them accompanied by other very good units, to add to the carnage.

PvK

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've never noticed that kind of problem. Seems like Groups of units on Guard Commander are no more likely to rout on losses than Groups with any other kind of orders.

PvK

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But the question is WHY!

Why use a big trampler at all? Why not just use a non overcosted chassis with a full compliment of equipment slots... or barring that, if you REALLY want to trample, why not use an encumbrance 0 POD or something? At least then you can soul vortex and hold 2 shields... plus wear maybe some armor. For the love of god WHY?

Prince Of Death
DDDDD EEEE SSSS
Dominion 5
Boots of Behemoth
Order 3
Sloth 1
Castle

Do I win now? Oh my god please just stop.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because trampling is the best way to kill large quantities of normal troops very quickly and in the very early game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because that need for equipment means that it will take many more turns for the pretender to start affecting battles. The shedu is out and conquering from turn 4.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The prince of death cannot have his afflictions healed by the priestesses.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any armor he can wear isn't going to do more than what you could get with invulnerability. With 400+ hitpoints, protection 30, luck, astral shield, and etherealness, the shedu is hard to kill even when surrounded and unconscious. It's the flying equivalent of a monolith, and has to be used for a different purpose and with different tactics than many other pretenders, but that doesn't make it useless.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The prince of death you just described is far more vulnerable to mind duel than the astral 6 Shedu, and requires equipment that Arco will have trouble forging in the first 10-15 turns if you also want to do any alteration or enchantment research. You keep comparing the Shedu to pretender designs that are made for different types of games, and for different goals. Of course it doesn't match up in its ability to kill other SCs, but as I've said that's not the point of the unit.

And by the way, asking if you "win" is pointless when this isn't a competition.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:58: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Ok screw it. You wanna play with your shedu go nuts. If you want to sit there and dream up asinine scenarios whereby the Shedu is clearly the unit of choice, far be it from me to stop you.

I'll be sure to look forward to your next posting regarding the awesome power of the Asynja, Great Black Bull, Arch Druid, and Lord of the Gates.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Shedu
EEEE SSSSSS
Dominion 6
Order 3
Sloth 1
Castle

Why? Well it's a matter of taste and the PoD is ok, but the Shedu can't be banished, this Shedu is much harder to Mind Duel than that PoD, and as others have said, trampling has different pros and cons than hand weapons. Trampling can kill people more quickly than a sword. This means more shock value, which is important to fliers. One strength of a strong flier attack is that it may do a lot of sudden unexpected damage, causing a rout which can be mopped up easily by fliers. The reason a Shedu, or a small group of Wind Riders, often dies when they attack rear, is lack of critical mass - they get outnumbered and swarmed and rout first. Shedu attracts a lot of attention and causes a lot of damage to Groups which Wind Riders might have trouble with. Wind Riders do well against the units the Shedu can't easily stomp. Combined arms. One of the difficulties is the time it takes GE to build up a large enough force of fliers. Well, with a Shedu mixed in, it provides a very strong boost to the required critical mass. Yes a PoD can do that too, and it's fine if you prefer a PoD. Shedu may be overpriced, but it's not useless, and it fits a certain play style and has some unique advantages.

PvK

P.S.
Dropping cost to 75 points, or making Shedu E1S2 or E2S2 might be good adjustments.

I have used Great Druid before (yes I do like getting extra vine ogres), and I might use Asynja some time. Which is not to say that they couldn't be better (mb increase vine bonus and/or Nature +1-2 on Druid, and lower cost or increase something on Asynja). My point about these is that they do have some advantages, even if maybe they might be a bit overpriced or could use a bit of a boost.

[ June 21, 2004, 03:40: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If the only units on the field other than commanders are bodyguards, a rout will occur the moment anyone dies. If you have OTHER units on the field, they function normally, but if there's only a guard commander group and commander(s), then everyone chickens out the moment anyone dies.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Oh, interesting. Sounds like a bug. I usually had a whole additional army, so I guess I didn't often, if ever, get a chance to see that.

BTW, I created the Shedu I just mentioned. Crunch, God of Mountains, Patron of Soldiers, Guardian of Existance. I like the title. I set it up on Aran against 11 impossible AI's with Indy strength 5, to see how well what I mentioned would meet my own standards.

Heh - has anyone ever tried Farstrike with a Shedu? I figure it ought to be about Damage 49 for Earth 4...

So far it splats everyone in one shot, but no hard targets yet.

Shedu seems to be able to flatten at least 20 men before running out of fatigue. Currently Crunch tops the hall of fame, and I haven't even been able to hire any flying escorts yet (wanted to get some Myrmidons yet - yes, the Sloth makes it slow to recruit them.

PvK

P.S.
First heavy cavalry + crossbow indies met. I only have six Myrmidons, a Myrmidon leader, the starting Peltasts and Cardaces plus six, and what's left of Dante's Stingers. The Myrmidons are in front and stand outnumbered by heavy cavalry, and stand firm, taking some bruises but losing zero men. Crunch then farstrikes someone and floats over to the crossbows and commanders, who were in a tight group. Crunch. Routed enemy. Crunch crunch crunch. No sweat, so far.

BTW we didn't mention that GE has 100-gold lab building costs, and the scrying dominion.

Another kind of savage thing you could do as GE Arco is build lots of Myrmidon commanders, and give the better of them magic trinkets. Gold can be in abundance while building high-resource troops with Order 3, and 35 gold vs. 14 gold for a regular myrmidon gets a commander Version with better skills, which can be a thug or super thug. I guess you can only build one, when you could be building a Philosopher or Mystic or Wind Lord, though. Still, if/when you do get short on gold, it's a cheap and pretty good unit.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:41: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you can't figure out how to use the Asynja or the great back bull, then you aren't trying very hard. The lord of the gates simply has to follow an army around so that he won't rout early, and the arch druid is safest rainbow mage to use thanks to his stealth. I'd also be quite happy to show you just how useful the Shedu can be in a very fast game. One that will usually be over by turn 20, and very rarely Lasts more than 30 turns.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:36: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not a bug so much as a safety feature to prevent bodyguards from keeping your important commanders on the field longer than they should be.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Meh. I tend to hate safety features. Safety features are for the weak and timid! I prefer my things to be unsafe and pose a severe health hazard to the ignorant and uninitiated. It's more fun that way, because it limits their usage to me.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

How about if you have two or more Groups on Guard commander (guarding the same commander) - maybe that would disable the safety feature, if you want to.

PvK

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Ok, first injuries were from an unlikely source - Blowpipes and Woodsmen!

A lucky blowpipe shot managed to kill a Myrmidon! Very lucky shot, I guess. Then, the druid put my Shedu to sleep with the Sleep spell! Of course, I had timed the attack properly so that, even though I still had no flying escorts for the Shedu, they barely hurt him while he was unconscious, and the Myrmidons and Cardaces arrived the next turn to wipe them out. The Shedu took a chest wound though - time to heal. My luck improved the next turn though as I set my priestess to heal as the Shedu flew in for repairs, and he was healed immediately. Back to action, and now I have a few fliers for escort.

Sadly, I do need to get some sleep, as a ridiculous work week lies ahead, so the experiment will be on hiatus for a while. However, I am not at all displeased with the results so far. The only real weak point I see is the low resources versus the costs of the good units. However Cardaces cost almost no resources, and serve the purpose of having men to help kill indies with at first. When a Shedu is scheduled to go wipe out the rear (especially when escorted), Cardaces can fill the gap for a while.

PvK

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the Asynja is not what I would call "good", but she's not unplayably awful. However, she seems to fall into an uncomfortable middle ground between the Titan and Allfather: Not quite as good an Air-bless chassis as the Titan, as the Titan gets to A9 more cheaply, and not as good a fighter as the Allfather, since she is not immune to armor encumberance and her paths are less versatile.

The primary problem with the Asynja is not really her stats, but the fact that she fails to fill any niche that the Allfather or Titan cannot do better.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

[quote]Originally posted by Blitz:

Quote:

I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whether or not she is better than the Allfather is completely irrelevant to the question of whether she is useless or not. Will you please stop bringing up red herrings and pretending that they are valid arguments?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, first, as even you point out, you _can't_ get the Nataraja like that (which number is correct, 222 or 244?). Second, I've used both a Shedu and a Nataraja, and without equipment (i.e., very early in the game), a Shedu is much better.

Also, IIRC, the Nataraja only gets one miscellaneous slot. This causes problems when you want to boost his paths. Ironically, the only slots that matter for boosting Astral magic are the Head and Misc. slots, and that means that the Shedu can boost his Astral magic more than the Nataraja.

Something else you miss is that the Shedu is more economical than the Nataraja at boosting his initial paths past 4. This means that, should I want to have a better blessing than a simple 4S4E, the Shedu is definitely the better choice.

Finally, a friendly piece of advice for you: "Those who say something cannot be done should get out of the way of the people doing it."

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mm-hmm.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can you give me data showing this? Even aside from the tactical considerations (such as the difference in kill rate), the fact that the Shedu flies means that strategically you are less constrained in which provinces you attack.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's compare them, shall we?

Rainbow Armor:
Cost: 5 Air + 5 Nature gems
Prot 8
Def: 1
Enc: 1
MR: +3
Reinv: +3

Shroud of the Battle Saint (4E4S):
Cost: 5 Astral gems
Prot: 5
Def: 0
Enc: 0
MR: +1
Reinv: +2

Now that's the surface. Now, considering that we are talking about mages, that means the Enc will be doubled for the purposes of fatigue, to 2. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor +1, not +3. Assuming that Quickness is put up (and when we're talking about Arco's Mystics in Communion, this assumption is pretty fair), this Enc should be removed twice for 2 spells being cast per turn. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor -1.

There is also the fact that the Shroud costs half as much as the Rainbow Armor (which we'll ignore because of the better Prot and Def Ratings of the Rainbow Armor).

Finally, you have to consider that Arco has no easy access to nature gems to forge the Rainbow armor. The Shroud, OTOH, is much more easily obtainable.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I believe my statement was that if you wanted Earth magic, Astral Magic, and a high Dominion on your Pretender, the Shedu was the best choice. The E4/S4 blessing is only one ramification of such a strategy.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is not true from my experiences using both.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, the difference in point costs is 1 point in favor of the Son of the Sun, and that is negligible. Also, if you increase Earth beyond 4, it starts to favor the Shedu. The Son of the Sun also is nowhere near the early combat pretender the Shedu is.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your tone needs work here.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whether or not she is better than the Allfather is completely irrelevant to the question of whether she is useless or not. Will you please stop bringing up red herrings and pretending that they are valid arguments?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here's one suggestion:

Asynja
Air-4
Earth-3
Nature-3

Tested twice using

Theme: Midgard
Order +3
Production +3
Cold +1
Drain +2
Dominion: 5
Castle

and

Theme: Midgard
Order +3
Cold +1
Magic +1
Dominion: 5
Castle

Remarks:

(1) Cheaper than a Titan or Allfather with similar magic.

(2) Compliments Midgard's magic rather nicely. (As a matter of fact, with this pretender you can eventually achieve level 5+ in every path magic using only national mages and Construction 2-6 items - right, no empowerment, no indies, nada.)

(3) Lots of good early buffs early - Mistform, Mirror Image, Personal Regen, etc. - making full use of her potential early. I chose Earth and Nature above Water and Death because (a) regen is a must have for an early SC (b) Earth magic is a dead end for Midgard without at least 2 levels on the pretender (c) Quickness is great but you can get it on boots eventually (d) Soul Vortex is great but isn't available as soon as the other buffs.

How does this Asynja compare to a Titan with the same skills? She loses the shock resistance, but she's cheaper and come with better fighting skills. Rather positive.

How does she compare to the Allfather? Well, to make the best use of his starting magic, you'll want to buy a couple extra levels of Death, as well as a couple levels of Water to take advantage of the cheap paths. And probably reduce his air magic to 3 to get one more tick in a scale. Such an Allfather would be superior, but it comes with a 80 points deficit - and loses the air-4 blessing as well. So it depends on whether you want the stronger scales or not. If the former, this Asynja is still an impressive fighter.


With the other 2 themes you may want to buy her different magic paths.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Honestly, I am sick of this. Both of you have already admitted that the Shedu is overcosted, which pretty much is the whole damn point. While yes, the Shedu does fill the niche of "early flying trampler for people who want an earth-astral blessing", in all honesty that is a very limited role of extremely dubious merit.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Kill rate is pretty much irrelevant. What matters for a pretender used for expansion is that the chassis can clear out a province of independants. The wurm, with it's huge regeneration bonus will under most circumstances be operating with a much higher hit point total. In addition he isn't going to collapse in a heap halfway through the battle and require assistance from your other troops. If you really want to achieve a fast opening with Arcoscephale, I'd probably reccomend the Virtue. Her impressive awe rating means that she's virtually invulnerable to damage from indepandants. She also flies, is much more useful in the lategame, and her lack of trample is quite frankly seen as a bonus by most players who know what they are talking about.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, a convoluted strategy of forged shrouds of the battle saint and an earth 4, astral 4 blessing just really isn't a very efficient use of a pretender god.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Frankly I doubt either of you were doing anything at all with the Shedu before, and I highly doubt that either of you will play much with him ever again. He's not a cost-efficient pretender chassis, and certianly not comparable to the other pretender gods available to Arcoscephale. While calling him useless may be somewhat of an exageration, there quite simply are better ways to spend your design points than on this chassis. Your mystics can already cast most high-level earth and astral rituals without help, so a pretender god with earth/astral is really not as valuable to Arcoscephale. You don't need a "golem summoner" when you can simply forge a starshine skullcap and cast it with a fairly common 2-earth mage.

While this thread was meant to be a discussion of the golden era theme, it has become a forum for defending the shedu... a chassis that I've never seen in a MP game. If you find absolute terms such as "useless" so offensive and need to take it upon yourself to prove otherwise, by all means be my guest.

[ June 21, 2004, 18:06: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

I use Shedu quite abit. But since it sounds like you are mostly giving "Johan" arguments (numbers, balance, strategy, winning) there isnt much for me to put in. Im not saying you are right, just that its for others to debate you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I tend to use it more for "Kristoffer" reasons (theme, storyline, kewlness, RPG, solo). Its still a good idea for no choice to actually suck in either Category. But everything in the game seems to be a blending/comrpomise between both viewpoints.

[ June 21, 2004, 19:16: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, the point was that you were stating that the Shedu has no redeeming qualities and was useless. I also haven't admitted that the Shedu was overcosted, since I haven't seen a pretender that can give you access to both high level earth and astral magic for the same cost.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Earth and astral magic aren't a useful combination? They are one of the more useful combinations considering the synergy between the paths.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Neither will the Shedu unless you happen to be playing with independents 9.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I always like it when people make an argument from popularity. Why don't you name these "most players". It looks to me more like it's just you and Norfleet.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then go earth 2 astral 9. Twist fate is certainly worth it on sacred units.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've already told you the game conditions where I would take a Shedu over most other pretenders. A blitz game where the goal is to capture 4 of 7 victory points on a small map like Brittain or Urgaia.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is nothing more than an argument from popularity. We are also objecting to your arrogant tone.

[ June 21, 2004, 19:22: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Graeme, if you honestly believe that the Shedu is a balanced, well costed, viable pretender choice for Arcoscephale at this point, you probably won't be convinced otherwise. At first I suspected that you were simply playing devil's advocate, but I actually read a few of your other strategy Posts and I am beginning to think that it's possible that you really believe what you are saying. While I find it hard to believe that pricing the Shedu at the same level as an allfather is appropriate, to some people he's obviously more than worth it.

I wish you good fortune with your earth 4/astral 4 blessed mystics and flying tramplers.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The allfather has nothing to do with this since he isn't available to Arco. Even if he was, he's not designed for the same tasks as the Shedu. You'd be better off comparing a shedu to a dragon or the Wyrm, since they share a much closer role. If you insist on comparing apples to oranges, then you would be much better off comparing it to any of the 125 point pretenders that are actually available to Arco.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have no idea what you are talking about since I've _never_ advocated either a E4/S4 Shedu, _or_ using shrouds. You might also want to lose the attitude, since it's only hurting your position.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on what you're aiming for: if it's a small boost in air magic (up to air@6, say) and a few levels in a secondary path besides death, then the Asynja is your cheapest option.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I stated that a lowering in price would be something I wouldn't mind seeing. That is not the same as saying he's overcosted.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're going into dangerous waters, my friend. First, kill rate IS important due to morale considerations. Killing 5 people a turn is going to rout them much faster than killing 2. This is important for many reasons, and let me make them explicit. The faster you kill the enemies, the faster they rout. The faster they rout, the less fatigue you get.

As for HP totals, the Wyrm starts with a base of 160HPs, and gains 10% per round (assuming no Nature magic), to a maximum of 160. The Shedu has a base of 230HPs. That means that the Shedu will have more HPs than the Wyrm for 7 turns after contact with enemy troops is made. Do battles against Indeps normally take you that long to accomplish?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm currently playing a GE Arco game, and it's turn 12 or 13. My Shedu/Prophet/Peltast strategy is working very well, and he's never been above 55 Fatigue at the end of a battle. Never an affliction, either.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you say so. My own experiences with a Virtue early are quite different.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since you don't seem to understand the points regarding kill rate, let me reiterate them.

1) The more people you kill, the faster the opponent will rout.
2) The faster the opponent routs, the faster the combat will take to reach closure.

The Virtue kills _1_ unit a turn. This means that on higher indep settings, she WILL get mobbed, and she WILL take damage. If you wait until she has Alteration researched to get her buffs, I have a quicker start out of the gate.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How is that convoluted? Further, who are you to tell me what is or is not efficient? A Nataraja or a Son of the Sun cannot take provinces early as well as a Shedu, and is not as efficient with Earth and Astral magic as the Shedu. You're trying to pick this apart and saying that you can do better in any one area. And maybe you can. But can you do better in all of them?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wrong on both counts. But then, you don't listen much to others, do you?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He is the most cost-efficient god for Earth and Astral magic. You can't name another one that is better for both, if you want either of them at a medium-to-high level.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which I note you're quite good at.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll repeat my earlier advice to you: Those who say something can't be done should get out of the way of the people doing it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh? Tell me how a Mystic is going to cast Forge. Even assuming an Earth-3 Mystic, the easiest way is, depending on your gem income, Earth Boots and either the Sword of the Four Elements, or a Ring of Wizardry. That's a lot of gems that you can save by simply taking 5 Earth on your Pretender.

If you want to talk about a 2-Earth Mystic (which is the much likelier scenario), you have to spend another 45 Earth gems to empower him, or forge both the Ring of Wizardry and the Sword.

I'm not sure about you, but this seems like quite an effort just to be able to cast an Earth-5 Ritual.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I simply pointed out one late-game use for him. There are others as well, which you seem to miss.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Popularity <> usefulness, and the reverse is true as well.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't claim it is useless, unless you qualify it to 'useless to me', since you seem incapable of figuring out how to use the Shedu.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[Snip]

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No wonder you had bad experiences with her. That should be 5-10 kills a turn after you've researched a couple levels in Alteration and Evocation.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

...not to get into the Shedu-debate (imho OK, probably has its uses), but...

[quote]Originally posted by Scott Hebert:

Quote:

Originally posted by Blitz: The Virtue kills _1_ unit a turn. This means that on higher indep settings, she WILL get mobbed, and she WILL take damage. If you wait until she has Alteration researched to get her buffs, I have a quicker start out of the gate.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A Virtue pretender in MP around turn 10 or so with indy 9. She's been in the field since turn 3 and not a single affliction. Currently competes of high HoF positions with a group of pre-2.12 created VQs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Of course, it just may be that fortune favors the fool...

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's only possible once you reach evocation 5. This is certainly not going to happen by turn 4.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's only possible once you reach evocation 5. This is certainly not going to happen by turn 4. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Er, after Evocation 2 you mean.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Evocation 2 gives you lignthing bolt. There is no way to use lightning bolt to kill more than 2 enemies a turn with a virtue.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Evocation 2 gives you lignthing bolt. There is no way to use lightning bolt to kill more than 2 enemies a turn with a virtue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Research Evocation 2 and send your unscripted Virtue alone vs independents. Luckily she'll know how to deal with them better than you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I suppose one could use shockwave, but as soon as you give her the alteration 3 that she needs to gain real survivability she'll also start to cast ghost wolves, which you really don't want.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Actually since the Virtue flies, she will cast her buffs, (say Mirror Image, Mistform, Air Shield, Resist Lighting) then set her to attack (1 Round) to get close to masses of the enemy, then cast with the Last order being casting spells. She'll do the smart thing and chaincast Shockwave as long as she has nearby units that the game finds feasible to cast on (I think as long as the squares are 50% full of units around her)

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Deleted by Zen

[ June 22, 2004, 21:09: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I suppose one could use shockwave, but as soon as you give her the alteration 3 that she needs to gain real survivability she'll also start to cast ghost wolves, which you really don't want. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've never found that to be a problem. Ghost Wolves is a low fatigue spell, anyway if it's an issue (because of high ENC, massive drain and/or low air magic), you still have the option to attack 1 round, as Zen said. Once the enemy is within range, she'll default to Shockwave (unless she chooses to melee) 99% of the time, and that's what you want.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, Zen, she doesn't need this one... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Good point. But you can never be too careful eh?

What she does need is a Ring of the Snake, nothing like losing a perfectly good Virtue to a Snake Bladder Stick http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Another thing. I always thought was a little bizzare. She's wielding a Flambeau and isn't fire Resistant. And if you've ever killed a Virtue with Holy Pyre, it's ironic as all hell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 22, 2004, 21:43: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, that's why you give her a hellsword.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I think she won't cast Resist Lightning even if you script her so.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Anyway I always give fire and/or cold resistance to my Virtues before they go after other nations. It's so easy to lose them to Incinerate or Frozen Heart if you're not careful enough.