Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Artifact WOULD help - but it could also be used elsewhere for even greater effects.

Remember, the truly great SC builds aren't about achieving the most power, but being very effective for their cost. Gift-of-Reasoning, Empowering and giving artifacts to a single Abomination makes him very powerful, but you could have dozen very powerful thugs, or 5-6 SCs, with the same price.

EVERY thing can die. Because of that, NOTHING is good enough to use all those resources on. Except in SP, and just for fun... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I remember someone playing Ulm, and the stories of the heroic Cave Drake leading his assault squad on a flying carpet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I'd like to do something as cool as that!

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

What abominations lack in SC potential, they make up for in survivability. Consequently, they tend to make better, more cost-effective* platforms for, say, the Soulstone of the Wolves. And I still think they're a decent choice for Kurgi's Gift, what with having no spell levels to lose, and being ultimately expendable.


*25+20(GoR)}+5(Amulet of Antimagic) gems vs a Tartarian's 10-30+equipment+means of healing afflictions). Bearing in mind the Achilles' Heel that is undeath, to say nothing of superior HP and built in lifedrain/regenration combo, I find abominations well worth the slightly higher base cost.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

From memory (I so wish I could play Dominions from school), MR item bonuses stack with MR spell bonuses, since they aren't the same thing, but MR spell effects *are* the same thing as far the game is concerned. So, Iron Will should stack with the Amulet, but Iron Will does not stack with Antimagic, the MR part of Army of Lead, or the Astral battlefield spell giving increased MR to everyone around.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

an abomination commander w/ the gift of kurgi would last as long as bumping into the first astral mage. survivable, maybe - still yours, maybe not.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

i thought even when feebleminded abombs had good mr?

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

"good" is a bit relative - the AI will preferentially target them (cause they have tons of hp); so, while my statement was a bit exagerated ;p - a group of astral mages w/ some chaff would almost certainly prevail, since the mages will spam enslave and the like on it.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

MR 19 isn't that bad, and almost every true SC or higher-end thug has to deal with Enslave Mind and Soul Slay spamming. Particularly the ones that attack alone, or at the head of small squads of flying/teleporting thugs. I figure the point of a flying abomination is being able to use it wherever you see fit, instead of just indiscriminately sending it at any astral mage stacks that come your way.

Besides, think of the alternatives. Abominations have the highest base MR in the game*, waste no spell levels by being gifted, and can take down any horrors that come their way with relative ease. How much equipment would you have to give any other summon for them to survive Kurgi's Gift? How much more would it sting if you lost all that equipment to a lucky Soul Slay or Enslave Mind?

*I believe they tie with doom horrors and vastnesses. I may be wrong. At any rate, both are overpriced. With the possible exeption of an Astral-9 blessed Vastness. Expensive, but one hell of a giftbearer.

Edit: Also, if we're talking about army vs army combat, the least you could do is throw in a casting of Army of Lead or Resist Magic.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

MR 19 means that you'll fail somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1-5% of the time.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

That's the theory. It assumes a minimum-level caster, base dominion, etc. Practice is somewhat different. My experience is that any one (or even two) things with 19 MR facing a squad of 5 or more Atlantis or Pythium astral mages will fall to soul slay, and probably sooner in the battle rather than later (and will probably be paralyzed to boot).

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

That seems to square with the theory. Assuming the above five mages aren't quickened, and have a 5% chance per casting of making it past MR, the abomination still has only ~60% odds of surviving the second round of combat, and ~46% of surviving the third.
I still consider this perfectly acceptable, since this sort of thug simply isn't meant to go up against astral mages, particularly without a friendly mage to boost its MR further.

Once again, I'd like to point out there are few alternative combat platforms for Kurgi's Gift which aren't simultaneously more expensive, more vulnerable to both magic and conventional weapons, and much more painful to lose.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Maybe a vastness from the gate...
I also gave the gift to the ettin mandragora (no wish).
It was pretty good, but not worth the blood hunting in a pop-killing dominion.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Yep - especially considering that most people who are trying to do enslaves or soul slays, etc, probably have equipped their mages with items such as Rune Smasher that give a bonus to penetrating MR.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

but the best part is when you send a bunch of chaff and archers against those mages with only a few guards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif. but a spell focus+rune smasher astrologer will just laugh at most thugs or scs

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Do you really expect a competant player to leave a squad of astral mages standing out in a field, waiting for your chaff and archers to march up and kill them? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

The trick to successful MP does not lie building the right army or in making the perfect SC - it lies in making sure you are the one who chooses the time, place and circumstance of the critical battles.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Very true Ron, that is probably one of the first things I learned from blitzing.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I just learned of Gift of Reason not too long ago. Do you guys use this often? Whats the most cost effective thug that you guys tend to use?

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

the most cost effective thugs are probably banelord with luck ammy, life drain and either air shield/flying shoes if possible. these guys are extremely cheap (for thugs/scs atleast) and are pretty tough. a few trinkets can be added (especially with a heroic ability) and with a hellsword/other berserk item they can be used in packs

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Tartarians are an old favourite for Gift of Reason... or that sleezy Air Queen/Arch Devil... you've just captured in a fight (Enslave Mind is your friend).

If you want to make a bold statement about your might, nothing beats a Gift of Reasoned Dragonfly, with no fewer than 1HP and abysmal fighting stats. If you are so powerful that you can afford this kind of waste of gem, how could you fail to squash your foes like... well, a dragonfly?

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

new goal in life: make a dragonfly SC...or thug at least.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

tartarians can be good withGoF but gems would be better spent on more tartarians in most cases(might get a commander anyway) other good things are vastness's, abominations, tarrasques and anything you consider worthy of wishing for (ie combat pretender)

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

At high summoning levels its all tartarians, golems, doom horrors, wraith lords etc. At lower levels...

Banelords, the Devil commander you get from Horde from Hell spell are good and cheap.

Some others that are good with CB mod
Firbolg
Harbinger (with a good blessing)

These you don't see as much but they are lower level summons that can be good thugs if you have a lot of gems
Crusher
Gargoyle

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

tartarians are the standard recipient for GoR. there is no more efficient use - though at least tartarians are a bit pricier in the mod

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

My two favorite thugs have to be banelord and the Harbringer. The harbringer is nice because you can throw on boots of stone and have them back up your other thugs wearing Air Jordans.

Firbolgs, I still haven't figured out what the best use for them....as archers or melee thugs.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Heh. Gift of Reason the dragonfly. Empower it with Astral magic until you can starting Wish(ing) for Power and Magic Power. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

That is then a _Dragon_ Fly! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

GoR is fun with cross-breeding, specially if you score an ettin.

(Does anyone actually use cross-breeding? I've played with it a bit, but it seems like the good stuff is depressingly rare...)

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Are there any other summoned mobs with magic paths like Tatarians? Or were the Tatarians ment to be used with GoR?

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

i have a question....how do you get a dragonfly outside of a battle? am i going to have to wish/transform myself? =)

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Unless you want to mod/map make or wish for it, there isn't.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I was just reading through the spell addendum doc, and they said that transformation can transform a mage into a dragonfly (although its noted that its rare).

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Hopefully in DOM_3 50% or more of all units within the game will be possible with Transformation. Or at the very least make the spell available sooner. Currently it's almost never used because most of the changes aren't that great and its so high up in research its usually not worth it.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I don't think it would be feasible for a NATURE mage to transform into a Void monster, or to an armored Abysian Heavy Infanty, or a mounted unit (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif), etc etc...

There are lots of new animals. They should be added to the list. But as the units are more often differently equipped units I would hate to see Transformation changed like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

I was looking for ways for the spell to be more valuable. If the spell does maintain a nature only focus it limits the possible units. If DOM_3 does keep a nature focus then possibly adding units like an Ivy King or TreeLord or WereBear.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Ivy King? Treelord? That's a bit far-fetched, don't you think?

There are lots of myths about various shape-shifter mages and such. Wizards turning into birds, wolves, bears, etc. Even into trees. But a Treelord is a bit too much! Vine men, even Vine Ogres, I could see.

Besides, I'm sure just allowing Transform to turn the caster into one of the many possible units created but not updated to Transformation's list would be enough. Moose and Bears, Great Lions, etc.

Besides, where have you seen Werebears? The only ones I remember are Jotunheim's Skinshifters mentioned in one of the DevDiaries. Oops, sorry, even they turn into wolves.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Possibility exists for turning into a Dragonfly as very rare... why not have these as very rare. Making them the jackpot of the gamble. And considering they're obviously of nature I don't think they should be banned from the possibility.

Well all the ones you listed have terrible MR and only two misc slots... leaving the spell as really not worth risking the nature mage. The spell has to be improved enough to be considered for use.

Just giving a possible example of a unit within DOM_3 since this change will only be made within DOM_3.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Actually, there is: a failed Transform may transform the caster into a Dragonfly. It's a lot rarer than the other failed results, though.

Yay for me! The above tidbit of information has already been posted a few hours ago. I feel so useful.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

You'd get a (potientially?) feebleminded dragonfly commander from a transform, right? So no need to GoR, although wasn't that the point -- to show how you have nature gems to waste?

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

The commander will be feeble-minded: failed Transform changes the body (Foul Spawns are the common ones) and the mind (sanity is so fleeting).

The goal was indeed to waste as much resources (most notably gems, but also mage-time and so on). I believe the Dragonfly qualifies, though: Transform very rarely produces Dragonflies, so you will need to spend a lot of mage-turns and gems (8 per attempt) to get your Dragonfly, and then you still need to cure the feeble-mindedness for maximum effect. It would be *so* fun to have a Dragonfly with *high* magic paths, wouldn't it?

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Can you enslave/charm/hellbind a dragonfly from a swarm casting? Or a shark from summon sharks? I'd prefer a shark (no not a shark knight) over a dragonfly.

Re: SC\'s vs Thugs
 

Creatures that vanish at the end of a battle... vanish at the end of a battle. Regardless of whether they've switched sides. I read something on these boards about Ghost Rider wraith lords being the exception to this rule, but I've yet to test it myself, and am pretty strongly inclined to doubt it.

Edit: Well, that settles it. I'm adding "land sharks" to the Dom III wishlist.