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I have to disagree Cyrian... The AI of CivIII is actually really quite good, and it doesnt cheat at all. (ok, im sure it does, but not in a large way)

Im gonna go out on a limb and publically disagree with Fyron tho... Civ ToT sucked. Man It sucked. It was awful. I own every Civ game, and every Civ-like game (MoM was good... But Colonization? Man, that game is STILL installed) CivIII was in my eyes a great game, but fell because of its predefined units, which Fyron has spent so much time argueing about.

In my opinion, SMAX was the be-all-end-all of 4X games. Actually, for me, its is the only game I need. You know how people always ask "If you were stuck on a desert island, what would you have?" Mine would be SMAX, although SEIV would be duking it out for the spot. The only other game even close to those 2 would be Jagged Alliance 2, and thats completly different.

So theres my total fanboy opinion... and remeber, Opinions are like noses... everyones got one, and they all smell.

Im gonna go play Colonization now...

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Why is Civ2 ToT a bad game? It had everything Civ2 Gold had, plus lots of cool new features that Sid's ego axed for Civ3.

The Civ3 AIs cheat as much as the AIs in other Civ games do, actually. Maybe even more so. And either way, Civ3 is still the worst thing to happen to Civ games ever...

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You know what, I went back and checked, and turns out I was complaining about the wrong game. You're right Fyron, Civ ToT WAS a great game... I was talking about Call to Power. Sorry.

As for CivIII, I still stand by it. Certainly, it wasnt my favorite Civ game, but the worst? Not at all. The engine is very good and the graphics are crisp, and the political model is unparalled. As for the AI cheating, I can only assume you're talking about the differences between the difficulty levels. Just like SEIV, the higher difficultly you select, the more "Bonuses" the AI gets... but aside from that, there isnt any cheating. My stealth units stay hidden, comeplete with enemy units wandering by. I didnt see anything to say the AI cheats, and certainly nothing to the extent that you obviously believe it does.

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The AI in Civ3 cheats exactly as much as the AI in Civ2 does (plus more, because the AIs freely exchange their techs at low cost with each other, while charging you an arm and 2 legs).

What engine in Civ3? The graphics engine? Fah! Graphics do not make a game. In fact, graphics are the _least_ important factor of a game. Crisp units = irrelevant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The political model of Civ3 is much weaker than in a fairly large number of games, actually. It is certainly not unparalleled. And a decent political model means little with rampantly cheating AI.

The difficulty level of the AI in SE4 does _not_ cause them to cheat. The bonus does, but the difficulty level does not. This is the crucial difference between SE4 AI and Civ AI: SE4's AI can be played on high difficulty levels without any bonuses given to it. In Civ, you have to suffer with rampant AI bonuses at higher difficulty levels.

But the AI cheating doesn't really matter. Civ and Civ2 were still very fun games with their rampant AI cheating. Civ3 is just a poorly designed game overall, and has many inescapable flaws (which I don't care to enumerate again at the moment), in addition to miserably failing to carry on the Civ legacy. Instead of building upon Civ2, it destroyed nearly all of the improvements that had been made in the Civ2 series (esp. the expansions). And then they have the gall to release the game in a rather early beta stage, and charge us for the rest of the game later on!

Civ3 represents the first Civ game that is all about flash over content. I certainly hope that if a Civ4 is ever made, it takes nothing from the abomination that is Civ3.

And overall, you haven't really given any reasons as to why Civ3 is a good game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Anything other than crisp graphics or political structure?

[ April 23, 2003, 09:00: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

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I wasnt talking about the graphics engine. I was refering to the overall engine. But since Im fighting a loosing battle here, Im gonna respond to your particulars.

The AI in Civ3 cheats exactly as much as the AI in Civ2 does (plus more, because the AIs freely exchange their techs at low cost with each other, while charging you an arm and 2 legs).

I find this comment completly unfounded, for a number of reasons.
1) They simply do NOT charge you an arm and a leg for techs. Granted, quite a few times it may not be tech for tech trade, but if you think about it, many times this makes sense. Is gunpowder really worth Animal husbandary? To a military race, it isnt, and the AI takes note of that and deals witht the techs accordingly.
2) The idea that they basically give away their techs to other AIs is just a accusation. In the games of Civ3 that I have played (and that is a lot), the tech levels of the AIs is never uniform, it is always different. This in itself leads us to believe that they simply do not trade off their techs, but horde them like the user does. Again, some techs are fairly common to see, simply because they are such big important techs. But until you can prove this cheap theory to me, Im calling BS.

What engine in Civ3? The graphics engine? Fah! Graphics do not make a game. In fact, graphics are the _least_ important factor of a game. Crisp units = irrelevant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Couldnt agree with you more.

The political model of Civ3 is much weaker than in a fairly large number of games, actually. It is certainly not unparalleled. And a decent political model means little with rampantly cheating AI.

Give the names of the games, then we'll talk. Unparalleled may have been a fanboy exageration, but it isnt as bad as you play it out to be. Simply looking at the options availible to you shows a decent amount of thought was put into it. YES, i know thats going to annoy you because it IS almost just eye canday, but it is important to note the equations used in the engine to control the demand and dealing the the AI does depending on the worth of certain items.

The difficulty level of the AI in SE4 does _not_ cause them to cheat. The bonus does, but the difficulty level does not.

This could be me simply getting myself mixed up. Yeah, it is me getting mixxed up. The Newbies guide set me straight, on high setting it simply uses all its ministers.

This is the crucial difference between SE4 AI and Civ AI: SE4's AI can be played on high difficulty levels without any bonuses given to it. In Civ, you have to suffer with rampant AI bonuses at higher difficulty levels.

See, the same can be done in Civ3... its called Regent Difficulty (I may be wrong on the exact name.. corret me if im wrong). At that level, the AI is on full steam with no bonuses. Thats high difficulty with NO bonuses. Just what you wanted. Put it up higher, and the AI gets the bonuses as well. Its JUST LIKE SEIV ONLY WITH A DIFFERENT SETUP/NAMING.

But the AI cheating doesn't really matter. Civ and Civ2 were still very fun games with their rampant AI cheating.

Things to note:
1) More wild accusations about AI cheating
2) Accurate note of the fact that AI cheating doesnt matter BECAUSE it is ultimatly controlable by the user, AND because that said user can still beat it.
3) Fyron's got one of those word Calendars, and today's seems to be "Rampant".

Civ3 is just a poorly designed game overall, and has many inescapable flaws (which I don't care to enumerate again at the moment)

You called me on my "Good Engine" comment, im calling you on this one.

in addition to miserably failing to carry on the Civ legacy. Instead of building upon Civ2, it destroyed nearly all of the improvements that had been made in the Civ2 series (esp. the expansions).

See, i just do not agree with this comment. First off, they carry on the Civ legacy simply by making this game. Does this game suck? No. Does it go completly backward? No. Is it Warcraft 2 with nations? No. Like it or not, it DOES carry on the Civ legacy.

Yes, I would have liked to see more improvements, Yes, they could have built on some things, but you make this look to be like Battlecruiser 3000AD when it is most certainly not. Most of the imporvements are still in the game, along with some orginal ones which i very much enjoy. And before you call me out on that comment, just think Culture.

And then they have the gall to release the game in a rather early beta stage, and charge us for the rest of the game later on!

No arguement here, it was dissapointing the amounts of patches and fixes needed, and the fact the PTW was sold as a seperate item when it SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE ORGINAL.

That does anger me...

Civ3 represents the first Civ game that is all about flash over content.

Civ3 does come off like that, I do agree, but if you look deeper, i think it shows its roots and you can see that it truely is a good game.

I certainly hope that if a Civ4 is ever made, it takes nothing from the abomination that is Civ3.

I do hope the Civ4 is radically different, if only for change.

And again, more slander against Civ3.

And overall, you haven't really given any reasons as to why Civ3 is a good game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Anything other than crisp graphics or political structure?

You're right, I didnt, and I hope this reply gives you some pause before you run rampant over me again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Xio

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"I wasnt talking about the graphics engine. I was refering to the overall engine."

The overall engine is fairly poor by strategy game standards, actually.

"I find this comment completly unfounded, for a number of reasons.
1) They simply do NOT charge you an arm and a leg for techs. Granted, quite a few times it may not be tech for tech trade, but if you think about it, many times this makes sense. Is gunpowder really worth Animal husbandary? To a military race, it isnt, and the AI takes note of that and deals witht the techs accordingly."

Yes they do. 1000s of gold for techs is an arm and a leg. 4+ "new" techs for an obselete technology of little value other than a stepping stone is an arm and a leg. The first couple are cheap, but they get exponentially more expensive.

"2) The idea that they basically give away their techs to other AIs is just a accusation. In the games of Civ3 that I have played (and that is a lot), the tech levels of the AIs is never uniform, it is always different. This in itself leads us to believe that they simply do not trade off their techs, but horde them like the user does. Again, some techs are fairly common to see, simply because they are such big important techs. But until you can prove this cheap theory to me, Im calling BS."

Ok... the AIs that make some money are able to purchase techs from each other cheaply. The really crappy empires don't get much of this tech sharing, but the bigger ones do. Every game I have played directly supports my statement. The richer AIs get more techs than they could possibly research in a given time frame, without spending huge fortunes of money to buy them, as the player must do. This is not BS, it is what the AIs did in every game of Civ3 I played.

"Give the names of the games, then we'll talk. Unparalleled may have been a fanboy exageration, but it isnt as bad as you play it out to be. Simply looking at the options availible to you shows a decent amount of thought was put into it. YES, i know thats going to annoy you because it IS almost just eye canday, but it is important to note the equations used in the engine to control the demand and dealing the the AI does depending on the worth of certain items. "

Yes, and it all boils down to the AI always ripping you off by a huge margin, except sometimes in the very early stages of the game.

I am sure others can name many games with good political systems in them.

SE4 has as complex a diplomatic model (if not actually more complex). It just has poor AIs that don't use it well. GalCiv, MOO2, MOO3 all have better diplomatic/political models than Civ3. I am sure there are plenty of games I haven't played with equal to or better than systems than Civ3.

"See, the same can be done in Civ3... its called Regent Difficulty (I may be wrong on the exact name.. corret me if im wrong). At that level, the AI is on full steam with no bonuses. Thats high difficulty with NO bonuses. Just what you wanted. Put it up higher, and the AI gets the bonuses as well. Its JUST LIKE SEIV ONLY WITH A DIFFERENT SETUP/NAMING."

No, all levels except the lowest few have bonuses. The higher difficulty levels in Civ3 are difficulty + bonus. You can not choose one over the other. You have to take both. It is most certainly not like how SE4 handles it in any way.

"Things to note:
1) More wild accusations about AI cheating"

The AIs get bonuses to production based off of the difficulty level. They get bonuses to trade income. They get bonuses to trading with other AIs cause they don't rip each other off like they do humans. They get unseen bonuses to combat that make your units lose more often on higher difficulty levels. All of this is rampant cheating. They are in no way wild. They are based off of observations of the game mechanics.

"2) Accurate note of the fact that AI cheating doesnt matter BECAUSE it is ultimatly controlable by the user, AND because that said user can still beat it."

Only if you go with a low difficulty level, as level of cheating is directly intertwined with difficulty in Civ3.

"3) Fyron's got one of those word Calendars, and today's seems to be "Rampant"."

Well sorry if I have a large vocabulary...

"You called me on my "Good Engine" comment, im calling you on this one."

Go search for threads on Civ3 if you want to see them. There were a number of them... if you can't find them, I will find them for you tomorrow after I wake up.

"See, i just do not agree with this comment. First off, they carry on the Civ legacy simply by making this game. Does this game suck? No. Does it go completly backward? No. Is it Warcraft 2 with nations? No. Like it or not, it DOES carry on the Civ legacy."

No it doesn't. It is a deevolution of the Civ series from Civ 2 (and expansions), SMAC, etc. It stripped away all of the great new features of those games. This is why it does not carry on the Civ legacy.

"Yes, I would have liked to see more improvements, Yes, they could have built on some things, but you make this look to be like Battlecruiser 3000AD when it is most certainly not. Most of the imporvements are still in the game, along with some orginal ones which i very much enjoy. And before you call me out on that comment, just think Culture."

No, most of the improvements of Civ2 are not in the game. Firepower + Hit Points, Events, tons of unit abilities, etc.

The culture system of Civ3 is not an improvement...

"Civ3 does come off like that, I do agree, but if you look deeper, i think it shows its roots and you can see that it truely is a good game."

I tried to find the good in it for months. But, there was none to be found.

"And again, more slander against Civ3."

Well there are only bad things to say about Civ3. It is not deserving of praise.

"You're right, I didnt, and I hope this reply gives you some pause before you run rampant over me again."

I wasn't running rampant over you, just posting counter-statements.

Sleep time...

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Keep it easy, boys. Oh, and... wrong thread, this one is about GalCiv and MoO3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[Hillbilly]

"Ge'em, Boots! 'E's got bees in thar!"
*loud, lengthy, and resonating snort

[/Hillbilly]

[ April 23, 2003, 13:26: Message edited by: Loser ]

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GalCIv is lots of fun.

Re: Civs....I heartily disliked SMAC. TOT was and is still fun, though the graphics were fuzzy compared to Civ II. Civ III PTW is the best of the lot. The more I play, the better it gets, especially with the Teturkhan mod.

Supernova beats them all. Even the incomplete beta really, really rocked.

[ April 23, 2003, 14:22: Message edited by: solops ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And Civ3.

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Whoops, wrong thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ April 23, 2003, 18:41: Message edited by: Saint_Rukus ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And Civ3.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And pie.

Who likes pie?

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GIVE ME PIE!!!!, Cheese Cake!!!, Chips, and a barrel of Diet Soda.

I just want to kick back and watch the flame war.

Bwahahaahahahahahaahaaaa!!!!

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Flame War? Here? When was the Last time we had a flame war...

I posted my view of Civ3 in another Topic altogether that should be quite evident by its title. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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Yeah... where are you people getting a flame war from? There is nothing in this thread that would indicate one, and nothing is going to lead to one.

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I dont have time to reply right now, but just wanted to say two quick things:

1) This is NOT a flame war. Me and Fyron are simply having a discussion. While we may sling crap at each other occsionally in our Posts, we both realize that it is not a personal assault. NOT A FLAME WAR.

2) Im loosing this arguement bad. I blame it on Fyron's giant vocabulary.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Finally, I found something that I can call Impereator Fyron on without causing a flame war.

How many of you thing he sleeps?

Yeah, thought so.

In the future, I will thank you very much I.F. if you leave such blatantly false statements out of your Posts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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Raynorr:
Careful, or I might have to send my Antaran friends to glass your home in Texas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Never sleep... what do you think I am, some sort of robot? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

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You mean you aren't?

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No flamer, but it is no lamer either.

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("With respect to the question of Gal Civ vs. Moo3, I just have one simple comment to make about MOO3:

They designed the game so that the real time combats go until they are finished or until 10 minutes have passed--whichever comes first. Let me just say that I had a TON of combats where they had to run the full TEN minutes.

Lots and lots of people will tell you many, many things about MOO3. I can't tell you yes or not on any of them. I found myself rebooting my computer to get out of MOO3 rather than wait 10 tedious minutes while two ships that couldn't hurt each other circled the screen staring at each other.

Until the developers make the 'General Retreat' work better or create some sort of acceleration feature, I would stay far, far away from MOO3.")
Raynor

YOU CAN SET ANY TIME LIMITS YOU LIKE, AS WELL AS # OF BATTLES ALLOWED IN REAL TIME. ALSO, AS YOUR SHIPS IMPROVE THRU TECH ADVANCES, THE BATTLES BECOME MUCH MORE LIVELY & ENTERTAINING! Of course, you could just let the computer generate a result as well.

[ May 05, 2003, 09:18: Message edited by: eddieballgame ]

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MOO3 is an excellent game (pre-patched). Micromanage as much as you want or as little as you want. Great fun in multiplay. To get all the "facts" visit the forums on MOO3's main website--http://moo3.quicksilver.com/main2.html

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While we're (not) on topic:
I'm a big fan of Civ II, but the opponents are lacking - I can beat it on Deity with both hands tied behind my back (no really, i can type and use the mouse with my nose!) and drunk (well, fine, not too drunk, but drunk). As can most who have played it a few times, i would think. Anyhow, are the AIs (and by AI I mean AI + its bonus/cheat/whatevers) any challenge in the other Versions? which is the best?
Beyond that, which is the best multiplayer Civ?

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For me Galciv was a fantastic game
Maybe i am not a hard core 4 x gamer but it felt more like a game than Moo3 or even SE IV.
Interesting path and events keep me from retiring from the game just for one more turn.
and this is just from 50meg demo.
I am buying it today

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MOO3 is certainly not an excellent game... it is hardly classifiable as a game.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't hate the game, but you should be kidding. What about the "viceroy" ignoring your orders? Also, the deveolpers did the micormanage very hard with the terrible UI.
My advice is try to do not micromanage this game.

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I haven't read the MOO3 forums in a while. I wonder how they are coming with the patch that is supposed to make the AI harder to beat?

Lately, I'm getting somewhat frustrated with the weekly play balance changes in Gal Civ as well as some fairly odd user interface decisions.

Probably, I'll just take a break from gaming until SE:StarFury comes out--hopefully in July.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, we will have to agree to disagree on that opinion. Although I agree just classifying "it" as a game doesn't do it justice. It is almost like a simulator!

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That was my point. It is not supposed to be a simulator though, it was supposed to be the best 4X game ever, but it is a dismal failure on all accounts.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't hate the game, but you should be kidding. What about the "viceroy" ignoring your orders? Also, the deveolpers did the micormanage very hard with the terrible UI.
My advice is try to do not micromanage this game.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I find MOO3 very easy to use, & considering the depth of MICROmanaging available, easy to "navigate". There is so much to this program & with the coming PATCH, even more. Please, as an example, read in its entirety the excellent post by SIRIAN - http://www.ina-community.com/forums - MOO3 under STRATEGY/GAMPLAY
"Micromanage- Let's settle this once & for all." Hope I did this page address thing right:) Grant it, there are some people who are bitter about MOO3. I never played MOO1 or MOO2, but I enjoy TBS games & particularly multiplayer. This program to date has more than quenched my thirst in this genre, AND, this game will get "better" very soon. With modding allowed, you can make it better! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 11, 2003, 03:23: Message edited by: eddieballgame ]

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Why don't you link to the post instead?

Also, please reread the Posts in this thread about MOO3 (and in other threads). You seem to have missed everything they have said. A lot of people have found the game to override a lot of their orders and have the AI play for you anyways, even when you try to turn it off as much as you can.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The fact this program can "simulate" running an empire of the magnitude that this program allows is impressive enough. Where it "fails" I guess, is in its perceived clumsy interface. Oh,& the AI is less then best. Considering the programs stableness & lack of "game stopping" bugs not bad in my book. A better manual, maybe, but the forums have addressed just about everything in the game, and for the most part in a friendly & very helpful manner. The Patch will reflect this.
MOO3 was designed to make multiplay a feasible option for this genre. To date, it has succeeded.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My source of information for MOO3 is its main website. Yes, the Viceroys will, in time, do what "they" want. The strat guide even makes mention of that. You can still force build or eliminate with ROY on. Or turn him "off" & do it all, works for me. This having to keep an "eye" on your planetary leaders is kinda cool, kinda like real life, very unpredictable! I generally only micromanage a few planets because of time constraints. Sorry for my lack of "linking" ability, new to this thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 11, 2003, 03:59: Message edited by: eddieballgame ]

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Umm... the SE series has had multiplayer quite feasable for many many years. MOO3 is not an innovation.

The GUI is not "percieved as clumsy", it is undeniably clumsy. There are too many obtuse subwindows to go through to change something that will be changed back by the AI ministers. There are too many useless bits of information portrayed that you can never have an effect on, so there is no point in cluttering the game with them. Most of this bits are not explained at all, so you have no idea what the numbers mean. So, they are even more clutter, making the GUI even clumsier. Also, the control interface is less than stellar. It is horrid looking too, but that isn't part of it's clumsiness.

MOO3 does not in any way accurately simulate a space empire. It is not meant as a simulator, but as a game. So saying it is a good simulator IS NOT saying that it is a good game; it is saying the contrary.

Also, Quiksilver's propaganda about their beast of a game is not a valid source at all. What they say is irrelevant when it quite clearly contradicts what actually happens. And, the viceroys change orders immediately quite often, not after many turns. Also, turning them off actually does not do a whole lot; they still screw up everything you try to do anyways. They are very spiteful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 11, 2003, 04:05: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not sure what point you are trying to make pertaining to the multiplayer aspect of MOO3. As for your other statements, none are factual, ONLY opinion based. As proof, I heartily disagree with most of what you have "said". But so what. I was not trying to start a debate over "what is the best space empire game" just that MOO3 is a viable & fun alternative in this genre.
BTW, what game does "accurately simulate" a space empire, of which none exist?
I am enjoying this "conversation"! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

My source of info is not Quick Silver, but the many players of this game. The "grunts" if you will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 11, 2003, 04:22: Message edited by: eddieballgame ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Honestly, I'm one of the people that perceive the interface as clumsy, and think I have good reasons. In my view, I need to do too many clicks, doing things that some turns later the AI will change to their taste.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">After some search, I found the post. Loong but interesting.
Think it prove that the humans can manage better the planets than the AI (nothing new to me)... but at the same time, that the cost to manage even a single planet is a click nightmare.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I loved MOO1 and really enjoyed MOO2, both true classics, but I can't say the same about MOO3.
After read so bad reviews/oppinions about MOO3, when finally I played the game, felt that the game (or simulator to keep Fyron happy) was not so bad... but I'm not optimistic about that some day I'll really like the game.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's ok with me.
Not everybody like the same kind of games... although think if this game "quenched your thirst in this genre", you should try other games to compare.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh yes, I hope the patches and mods will improve the game.

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You posted this eddie:
"MOO3 was designed to make multiplay a feasible option for this genre."

This implies that it has not been feasible before MOO3 came out, which is wholely false.

My statements are not "opinions", they are observations of how the game works. Your "opinions" that you cited as proof are certainly not proof of anything except that is what you think.

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Sorry about the link thing. Anyways, I understand there is some "clicking" in this game. Supposedly the Patch is addressing this area also.
I like & play numerous TBS games such as Civ III PTW, Alpha Centauri, HMM series, AOW II.
All excellent. MOO3 is different, & will agree not to everyones liking. I certainly didn't mean to try & "sell" the game. I just wanted to give MY accurate description of what I have encountered with MOO3.
BTW GO REDSOX!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fair enough, to me the "proof" is "in the pudding". In your opinion how "good" is SEIV Online, or "hotseat" for that matter. I recently
received SEIV & it looks very good. Have yet to play it though. Thanks for your input.

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I don't have anyone to play SE4 hotseat with, so I can't answer that. I know there are plenty of people that are satisfied with it though. SE4 is very good in PBW play. It's the only way to play the game IMO! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif TCP/IP works well with 2 players, but gets slower than PBW with 3 or more, due to how it handles turns.

Proof means one thing, and one thing only. It is not a subjective term.

[ May 11, 2003, 05:00: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you for the info & your candor, till we "meet" again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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Regarding Imperator Fyron's comments on facts vs. opinions:

Umm... the SE series has had multiplayer quite feasable for many many years.


This is an opinion. The term 'quite feasable' is arbitrary and subject to opinion. Someone else might say that the multiplayer was not quite feasable.


The GUI is not "percieved as clumsy", it is undeniably clumsy. There are too many obtuse subwindows to go through to change something that will be changed back by the AI ministers. There are too many useless bits of information portrayed that you can never have an effect on, so there is no point in cluttering the game with them. Most of this bits are not explained at all, so you have no idea what the numbers mean. So, they are even more clutter, making the GUI even clumsier. Also, the control interface is less than stellar. It is horrid looking too, but that isn't part of it's clumsiness.


This also is an opinion. A fact would be something on the order of: If you click button 'X', then window 'Y' shows up. But just because you don't "like" something doesn't make it a fact. It makes it an opinion. A fact is something that is incontrovertible. If the word "like" or "dislike" enters in, then it is an opinion and not a fact.


MOO3 does not in any way accurately simulate a space empire. It is not meant as a simulator, but as a game. So saying it is a good simulator IS NOT saying that it is a good game; it is saying the contrary.


This also is an opinion.


Also, Quiksilver's propaganda about their beast of a game is not a valid source at all. What they say is irrelevant when it quite clearly contradicts what actually happens. And, the viceroys change orders immediately quite often, not after many turns. Also, turning them off actually does not do a whole lot; they still screw up everything you try to do anyways. They are very spiteful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

This also is an opinion. What are you going to use to determine what is a valid source? Without hard proof regarding the validity of a number of sources, it is clearly your opinion regarding what is or is not a valid source.

BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with most of your opinions. But they are just that, opinions.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 11, 2003, 08:51: Message edited by: raynor ]

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Common, Raynor ! Do not start the whole philosophical debate "what is the truth" and how objective can we be !

No sane person would argue that games like Moo2 and SEIII/IV had good multiplayer long before Moo3 was conceived.

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Since this isn't Plato's Pub, I'll leave aside the question of fact and opinion. Besides, Fyron and I have probably already met our philosophical debate quota for this year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But I did want to put in my opinion of MoO3 and ask a question about GalCiv.

I got MoO3 soon after it's release (as a gift), but because of the spectacularly negative reviews I didn't play it right away. Once I did open the box and began playing - with greatly diminished expectations - I found that I didn't hate it as much as I thought I would. There are some things I don't like: the interface (looks nice, but way too many clicks to access information), the ship design area (I like seeing the components, like in SE4), the ship sets (Atrocities, you are needed!), and the combat interface (again, a UI problem). I haven't played it long enough to really tell, but I've also heard the AI is very bad.

But I do like some things about it: the economic system, the idea of real-time combat (if not it's execution), the leaders (I like the role-playing aspect of them), the espionage system, the three dimensional star map (why not 3D tactical combat?), and the system maps. The economic system, in my opinion, is the best thing about the game. I know it's hard to say what's realistic about a science fiction game, but for me it has a very authentic feel. I like the complex interplay between resource production, industrial production, and the imperial budget. I hope some of these things find their way into SE5. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

My question about GalCiv - Is the AI as good as the reviews say? I've been looking for a truly challenging single player game, without much luck (I know it's hard to write a decent AI for very complex games of strategy, but I keep hoping).

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Raynor:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Someone might say that the earth is not round. Does that make saying the earth is round an opinion? No, it does not. While this particular case could be considered a matter of opinion, my point here will apply to pretty much everything else you said.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, it is a fact because there are a huge number of unnecessary clicks that you have to make to get anything done, but those things most often get overridden by the AI anyways. A non-clumsy interface would not have so many windows to go through to make minor changes. The degree of clumsiness and whether or not it is a game-breaking issue is a matter of opinion, but the fat that it is clumsy is not.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, it isn't an opinion. It is a fact about computing. It is impossible for a computer program designed to run on PCs to accurately simulate something as complex as an entire empire of people, or even one city. Even a super-computer would not be able to accurately simulate billions and billions of people over a few centuries of time (or however long MOO3 Lasts).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The general consensus from the gaming community and also my own observations constitute valid sources. I have seen the AIs override my orders in MOO3, so that is a fact, and is supported by nearly every gamer that comments on a game. What a game company says about their game is almost never a valid source because they want to sell you their game, so they are not about to point out its downfalls. They will only portray the things it does well, and often embellish the truth so that you get a flawed picture of the game.

Oleg:
I am quite sane, and so I take offense at your comments. Of course, I assume it is a joke, so I will let it slide.

Chronon:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">GalCiv is not as complex as other 4X games (in part due to the simplified combat model and also the lack of moddability), and so has better AIs for it. They do not have to be as adaptive, and so can be written into rigid patterns more easily. This is what allows good AI, after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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[quote]No, it is a fact because there are a huge number of unnecessary clicks that you have to make to get anything done, but those things most often get overridden by the AI anyways. A non-clumsy interface would not have so many windows to go through to make minor changes. The degree of clumsiness and whether or not it is a game-breaking issue is a matter of opinion, but the fat that it is clumsy is not.[quote]

It is a fact that this is my opinion; the "unecessary clicks" you "have" to make to micromanage are not clumsy to me AND not to all.
Could everything be put on 1 or 2 screens, maybe. From what I have read, the "Patch" is addressing this. It does "sound" like you were trying to micromanage with the AI on. Having played MOO3 alot, I find "ROY" will disagree in time on some of my choices. I can even "contol"
those things, shipbuilding, troop building, etc.
as long as I keep an eye on "him". For planet control with no AI override, I turn off the AI.
It does work, that is not an opinion. There is alot to do, Maintaining a healthy planet environment, keeping the pop happy, fed & protected, fleet maintenance, & on & on. This is very close to "simulating" the non real space empire environment. As a game I find this fun to deal with. Oh, that I find this fun is also a fact.

MOO3 is also very moddable, a fact. Meaning
you could "improve" on its many features, an opinion.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And every morning I have Claudia Schiffer and Cameron Diaz fight to see who will take a shower with me.

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Lol Slapbone. The one and only fitting answer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For more opionons, just check out ebay. Lots of Moo3 for less than 10$. Never seen so many people willing to sell a game for less than a fifth of the original price so soon after the release.

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Galciv,

I have been approaching a cultural victory for some time now. The game (ver1.02) says 12 months to go. But everytime I load the saved game the cultural victory calculations are screwed up and it takes many turns for it to be corrected andreach the 12 months to go point again. ARRGGGHHH!!!

Maybe I should make everything as automatic as possible and just keep hiting that turn button.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aaah... Eeeehh... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

My post was exactly to support (hmmm.. how can you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ) you as a perfectly sane person here. In fact, I reitterated your points almost up to the line http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Either you missunderstood me or I typed something quite opposite I wanted... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Ooh, dear. How easy it would be if russian was the default language here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif