Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is the "new water nation" really a nation or is it "just" a new theme for Pangaea? Or are you talking about something else?

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is the "new water nation" really a nation or is it "just" a new theme for Pangaea? Or are you talking about something else? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I remember correctly Kristoffer referred to it as a 3rd water nation. Ive modified my map selection criteria to include maps which have 3 equal-sized oceans in preparation. Although of course we have no idea how long it will be before it shows up.

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A simpler solution would be to increase the cost of the undead themes (Living Ermor can't ignore bad scales), *if* they really are a problem. I don't think they are - AE/SG have large weaknesses to offset their strengths. Their main trick that's hard to counter is an undead supercombatant god, and it's possible that there should be more and/or better counters to undead supercombatant gods; but that isn't limited to dead Ermors although it may be most severe with them. (They would also be counters to undead supercombatant Wraith Centurions and Vampire Counts too, of course.) It's also very possible that the Vampire Queen and/or Lich Queen should cost more points - this would leave fewer points for their magical powers, even in the hands of an undead Ermor.

Anyway, undead Ermor can't ignore all bad scales: drain is very bad, misfortune is still bad although not as bad as for living nations. They pretty much rely on luck/magic to get a half decent gem income. They do benefit from cold (chill auras) and death (starve the living), and pretty much ignore turmoil and sloth, though.

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that the Lich Queen is okay the way she is, as she doesn't have any modifiers that make her much harder to kill in melee combat.

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm very fond of Mictlan, too, but nobody's complaining Mictlan is overpowered, even though I find it to be every bit as potent as Ermor: Sun Priests with Jade Knives can very quickly demolish enemy dominion and replace it with your own.

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

Nice summary.

Not sure I agree with the conclusion that you don't need to deal with Ermor immediately (whether by allying or eliminating) but that's another story.

One thing. As someone referred to, another pro might be that they are all poor amphibians and can take indie water provinces early on without forging/ichythids/etc.

- Kel

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is true of Soul Gate. Ashen Empire does not have this strength in full: Censors are not amphibious (although they will happily spawn in provinces with underwater fortresses and immediately drown), being that they seem to be water-soluble. Archbishops are also incapable of entering the water. Ghouls, the only non-mindless AE Ermor unit, are not amphibious either, and must be left on land.

All this means that AE Ermor is extremely susceptible to R'lyeh undersea, because all the mindbLasts will strike the relatively weak mound kings, which, due to their less than stellar MR, will quickly die and leave the forces without commanders.

SG Ermor is better at this, as all SG troops and commanders are amphibious.

In all cases, their poor amphibiousness will give underwater priests lots of time to perform their priestings, and Ermor is unable to construct castles undersea, so will not be able to hold its undersea provinces effectively unless the pretender or a recruited Indy can cast Living Castle.

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

Ok, I just know that I see ermor in sea provinces earlier on where most other land nations aren't. I figured that was a pro http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is the "new water nation" really a nation or is it "just" a new theme for Pangaea? Or are you talking about something else? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I remember correctly Kristoffer referred to it as a 3rd water nation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And if I remember correctly, even if it were "just a theme", it wouldn't be for Pangaea. I believe that Kristoffer had stated that its pre-national orgins were as an Atlantian theme...

[Indeed I do. To wit, the Kristoffer quote in question...]

[ April 10, 2004, 18:12: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

Re: Ermor themes, too strong?
 

Wow norfleet, you just summed up why I play ermor all the time. Incredible analysis.

I first tried ermor to try and learn the game, and havent been able to pick a different nation since:)