Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

She can get afflicted to hell via poison as well. Not a prob with arco, but for everyone else.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Flame helmet is my FR item of choice these days

[ June 22, 2004, 22:40: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Poison will kill her and in the hands of the right player, they will have one coming at you on turn 5ish if you try to use your Virtue in any SC capacity if you don't put one on her.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, that may be a problem. Still, poison isn't as dangerous for her as mass Incinerate/Frozen Heart if she lacks the ad hoc resistance(s). These may kill her in a single round, and Awe doesn't help here.

OTOH there aren't long range 100 prec poison spells. And poison kills over time, so its effect may be negated by regeneration if the Virtue gets enough buff from her dominion (sending her alone in enemy dominion where you expect to see a type of spells she's not resistant to is always a bad idea).

For the record, I've had a Virtue stand toe-to-toe and win a fight vs 4 Hydras in a Dom 1 MP game - she had regeneration but no poison resistance.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you want to get to Thunder Strike, sure she'll kill more people. That's Evocation-4, though, and as I said, we're talking about the first 5 turns.

Though, if you can tell me how to get to Evocation-4 by turn 5, I'm all ears. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice trick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif IIRC, though, what are the chances she'll be able to cast it while in melee? 50%? To put up those buffs sounds like Alteration-3 and Evocation-2 to me. The Shedu needs none of that to take provinces. True, the Shedu should have an army, but an army of Peltasts is sufficient for the purpose, at least on Indep5.

And, if I may, at the same time the Virtue gets Thunder Strike (far safer than the above, though not nearly as cool), the Shedu gets Blade Wind. That's a wash, to me.

What I've heard from people 'in the know' is that GE Arco needs someone to help them take early provinces. The Shedu, to me, looks like one of the best candidates to do so. Take your beginning army, make a Priestess + a whole bunch of Peltasts. Attack a Province with Shedu/Priestess/Peltasts, with the Shedu doing anything you want for two turns, and then attacking the rear. This basically times the first or second Javelin volley from your troops for when the Shedu starts trampling, and that _will_ rout almost any Indep5 province, and probably would do a good job on higher Ratings. This starts province taking on turn 3.

Also, I believe it was mentioned that the Philosopher isn't as big as an advantage as people think because it was capital-only, and therefore its importance lessens as you build more forts.

I think there is some merit in this statement, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Look at it this way. _Most_ nations can hire their best mages only in their capital, and their secondary forts can only hire the researchers. The ramifications of this is that it takes time for the 'good' mages to get to the front, and the researchers are more exposed, if an enemy can get through the fort.

GE Arco inverts these conditions. Now, your Researchers are based in your Capital, and your 'good' mages are based in any of your Forts. This allows for faster deployment of your mages, and gives greater security to your researchers.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How many apparently magic based themes do you know that have exactly ONE mage? Heck, how many themes have one mage? Ulm, Ulm: IF, Pan: New Ara, and GE Arco?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Trollheim http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">First, GE Arco has two. The Mystic and the Priestess.

Second, how many nations use their weaker mages for anything other than research? There's Communion Slaves, and forging weaker items. That's about it. While _not_ inconsequential, the useful Nature items are not out of Arco's reach.

Third, it's not really about quantity so much as quality. The Mystic is generally considered one of the best mages in the game, if random. You can get 2+ in any of the Elemental paths. That's sort of the equivalent of 4 different mage types. Take a look at Mictlan's Mages. 3 of them are the same except for the non-Blood magic they get (with the small difference in the Priest King). If it were possible to get random picks restricted to specific paths, they could be represented by one unit.

With regards to the vaunted Seithkona, here's a scenario for you. You play Utgard Jotunheim, and I play GE Arco. You buy a Seithkona every turn for the first 21 turns (so you have 20), and I buy a Philosopher every turn for the same amount of time. Assuming an equal magic scale (a fair assumption, since your Cold-2 roughly balances with your 25 pt. charge for Utgard, plus my 40 points for Sloth), we will produce the same amount of research points in that time (assuming Magic-0, 1050) from these units. However, you will have spent a total of 3150 gold on your Seithkonur, while I will have spent 1749.3 gold on my Philosophers. This gives me 1400 more gold than you to be spent over 20 turns, for an average of 70 gold per turn. This only gets worse the longer we continue this.

If you think this is going too far in turns, then look at when we each have 10 (turn 11). For the same number of research points from these units, you'll have spent 1320 gold, and I will have spent 733.15. This difference is 586.85 gold.

Now, let's take a slightly different scenario. Assume that we have each bought one of our 'researchers' for the first ten turns, and then (from a second castle) bought ten more mages. Since I cannot get Philosophers in my second fortress, let me build Mystics instead. Let's see how we stand on turn 21 now.

You've spent 4626 gold total, have 31 Seithkonur, and made 1380 RPs (assuming Magic-0 scale).

I've spent 4701 gold, have 20 Philosophers and 11 Mystics, and made 1512 RPs (assuming Magic-0 scale).

Upkeep on these mages are 31 * 6 = 186 gold a turn for you, and (20 * 3.333)= 66.667 gold for the philosophers, and (11 * 9) = 99 gold for the mystics. This calculates to 165.667 gold total for me. You're still paying more for your researchers on maintenance (20g), and I'm producing more research. This is if I choose to maximize research. If I choose to minimize gold expenditure, I build Priestesses instead of Mystics, and I will spend less for my mages than you will on yours, and have less upkeep. I don't see how this is something against GE Arco.

I think, Blitz, that GE Arco is just something that doesn't work for you. That's nothing against you, but that's also nothing against GE Arco. Not everything has to play the same, and if you like the way that base Arco plays, but not GE, that's fine. Just don't try to dictate how others should play, and everyone will be fine.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So does Pangaea: NA I suppose. Her level 1 nature magic isn't irrelevant, but it's certianly not on par with most nation's secondary mages... even if she is a more efficient researcher and comes with different magic than the mystic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Using only the strongest mages available is a common mistake made by less experienced players.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd be happy to thrash you with GE arco. I've never said it was unplayable, merely weaker. Obviously from the poll, I'm speaking with the majority here. If you don't agree, that's fine... but it certianly isn't an indication of my inability to play the theme. As for dictating how people play? Not sure what you are talking about there.

[ June 23, 2004, 23:06: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

I wouldn't take popularity as some sort of truth. Especially considering that GE is relatively new.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you were the one who said that GE Arco has only one mage.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You like insulting people, don't you, Blitz? If you check other threads (such as the Desert Tombs thread), you will see I am quite comfortable with using 'secondary' mages.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sure you would be.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would YOU choose GE Arco over normal Arco then? If you believe as you imply elsewhere in this thread and others that GE Arco is weaker than normal Arco, why would you ever play it?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Poll results can be rigged with anyone with a modicum of intellect. As I don't ascribe stupidity to you, I see no reason why the results of that poll should receive undue attention. I'm fairly confident that the developers pay it little heed.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then why bother bringing it up? If you can play and win with the theme, what's so wrong with it? If you don't _like_ playing it vis-a-vis other nations or themes, that's perfectly fine, but don't bring up a discussion about how it's weaker because you don't like the way it plays.

About the only thing I agree with in this entire thread is that the Wind Rider is (slightly) overpriced, and that's only because the Gryphon Rider of the Garnet Amazons costs the same and gives you a Gryphon when the Rider dies.

BTW, nice sidestep of the math.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are already on record that you feel the wind rider is overcosted. Have you changed that opinion?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think inexperienced players tend to recruit the best possible unit, regardless of circumstances. It's certianly a habit I had to break fairly early on. I don't know if you are still in that stage or not, but your post seemed to imply it.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great, let's improve the wind rider then shall we? I seem to recall that was what my mod did. Giving GE a well-costed large flier would most likely improve the theme quite a bit, and it's what I've advocated all along.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like the GE concept. I think it's the best concept for a theme out there. I'd like to see it be strengthened so I could justify playing it more under competitive circumstances.

[ June 23, 2004, 23:22: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On record? This isn't a courtroom ;P But I have always felt it that way, but does that make the theme weaker than base Arco? Perhaps. But what pricetag do you put on being able to heal those Wind Riders that do survive or that you equip with a heavy blessing?

I have had great successes with GE Arco. But all my successes have been with not using Wind Riders at all because my playstyle, while very centralized around mobility, does not play into the cost effectiveness of Wind Riders. So in effect boosting or making the Wind Riders more viable for me, would strengthen the entire theme, probably to the point that some might feel it is better than the Arco Base, which is exactly what a Theme is not intended to do.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you had done any research, however, you would have seen that the statement did not apply to me, and thus had no place in the post except as an implied insult.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If that's what you 'got out' of my statement, let me be clearer. The overwhelming use of cheaper mages is to be research or bloodhunt, especially in the early-game, because they are more efficient.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Read what I wrote again. I did not say 'underpowered'; I said 'overpriced'. That is, I think they should cost around 100g, because their kill rate is much higher than comparable units (like the Valkyrie). However, they don't compare well to Gryphon Riders, so they probably should fall somewhere between the two.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree with how you modified them. Awe is totally inappropriate for them, IMO. And I hope you gave the Crystal Amazon Pegasus Riders Awe, too, if your reasoning for the Awe is because of the Pegasi. I would never give a flying sacred unit Awe, personally.

Also, that was not the only change you made. The changes seemed geared towards making Golden Era Arco play more like base Arco, which doesn't seem what the developers wanted.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd be interested to know if you've found some tactics with GE that I haven't. I generally relied on earth summons (and air queens), using my early research ability to get me there quickly. The construction earth buffs helped my cardaces quite a bit, and I added a few chariots and icarids to attack the flanks and rear. I think the early research boost can help offset the weaknesses of cardaces, hopefully long enough to get knights or other strong independants going.

While this strategy is somewhat succesful, I wish I could justify using wind riders more... as I see them as the signature unit of the theme. I think the devs may have overestimated the power of the rider and costed him unfairly.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well it's a game by game basis which tactics I use. But In General?

</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heavy Combat Oriented Pretender viable both Early and Late Game (Think Natty, PoD, Phoenix, Daughter, Cyclops)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mass Engineers</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Early sacrifice of Expansion to get a Second Fortress up Immediately</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Midgame I rely on Golembatants until I get my Mystic Support Spells in Line</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Abuse of Communion at every concievable opportunity</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
With my strategy I don't have as many Provinces as I would with normal Arco, but I have the unsiegable fortresses pushing in while I fortify heavily with Mass Mystic and Gateway in heavy chariot armies with support that will even roll Devil armies with Golem and Mechanical Men support. The key is to get the right amount of research fast enough while not depleting your gem income too far. This is why it's key to use your early gem income to fuel search spells (I'm not talking Acashic here).

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You've stated this again, and rather than unintentionaly insult you again, I'll try to be clearer.

Many if not most nations have cheaper mages that are in many circumstances more cost effective at doing various things. You've correctly identified researching and forging, and I reminded you of blood hunting... but on the battlefield there are many reasons why a cheaper mage might be better. Taking again, the seithkona who can cast both healing light and nether darts... her fatigue will be higher from these spells, but obviously two seithkona can cast them twice as often at less than half the price. Other good examples of this are the Marignion witch hunter, the Plythium Therug, the Caelum Seraph, the Machaka sorceress, the mother of avalon, and others. Clearly there are many situations where spending double the gold on a mage to cast the same spells is not effective.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would be appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And I thank you for that reminder.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Certainly, and I don't try to imply otherwise. However, I wasn't aware that the Evocation-7 necessary to cast Nether Darts qualified as 'especially early game'.

I simply don't see myself using, or hear of most others using, their cheap mages early in a combat role, or _any_ role other than researcher, bloodhunter, or (occasionally) cheap-item forger.

My point in all of this relative to GE Arco is that the Philosopher gives up the forging/battle roles that the Seithkona in order to give the same research at a cheaper price. 40g + 2.6667g per turn cheaper.

_Especially_ early-game, this difference is huge. Considering the other differences between GE Arco and Utgard Jotunheim, it should be much easier for Arco to afford the non-troop expenditures (forts/labs/temples/mercs) than Utgard Jotunheim, all other things being equal (and I'm not saying they are).

Just something to consider.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

[quote]Originally posted by Zen:
Well it's a game by game basis which tactics I use. But In General?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">By daughter, do you mean the Daughter of the Land? I wasn't aware she was considered a Combat-oriented Pretender. I see as 'clam factory', normally.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps the most underestimated GE Arco commander.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This (and the other Earth summons) is why I wish GE could get Golem Cult. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Hell, if they charged GE 50 points and gave them auto-Golem Cult, I'd still play them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is fun with Mystics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm most curious about that Daughter thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Healing light and nether bolt are evo 5 IIRC. With jotunheim that level of evocation is a high priority.

[ June 24, 2004, 03:16: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She's the best of the 50 point humanoids, as she has giant stats, starts with water magic for quickness, and can easily afford to put another couple of paths at 3 magic for combat purposes. I use her with C'Tis an awful lot.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

Blitz, your doing a very fine job on your subject. props to you, for it all makes sense.

the engineer has been brought up, but why is his resource cost 50? its hard enough to make units on this team (a team that isnt blood or death summoning).

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Er, don't you mean Evo intead of Const? They're actually Evocation-3 and -4, respectively. While interesting, about the only thing I would research early in Evocation is to get Arcane Probing. I would have to evaluate whether or not the other spells were worth it, that early in the game.

How do you use the Seithkonur, if you do get that high, though? I find it hard to imagine you're going to want to fire Nether Bolts into a melee, considering the effects should they hit your giants. OTOH, I don't see how they would be effective as a 'solo' magical attack squad. Do you use Vinemen to protect them, or something?

Honest question here. About the only time I do something like this (magical attack squads) is with Caelum.

To be perfectly honest, though, I almost prefer base Jotunheim to Utgard. Much better Bloodhunting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I normally find with Jotunheim that I want rather high Enchantment, for Revenants and other fun Death stuff. With Utgard's increases focus on Astral magic, I can see why taking more Evocation is desirable, but I'm rather leery of trying to bring Seithkonur into combat without some sort of mass Communion or something.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm glad he's making sense to someone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's the price you pay for having castles that never fall. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She's the best of the 50 point humanoids, as she has giant stats, starts with water magic for quickness, and can easily afford to put another couple of paths at 3 magic for combat purposes. I use her with C'Tis an awful lot. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. I guess. I generally use a Lady of Fortune for those nations that can use her and have sacred units I want to use. 4-Water/4-Nature Bless rather nice, IMO.

But yeah, she's a rather basic chassis to build from. Those 2 water gems per turn just scream to be used for clams, though. I wish I could use her with Atlantis or Rlyeh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Healing light is pretty nice on smaller numbers of high HP giants. As for nether darts, I don't find I lose many giants to it, because of their high hps. Later in the game, SC's like ice devils are not affected much. It's particularily potent against SC Users who back those troops up with archers and mages, as the seithkona will fire into the back lines. Combined with relief, this provides excellent spell backup.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll take your word for it; I've only seen it cast once or twice.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Okay, you're confusing me again... are you talking about Nether Darts (Evocation-7), or Nether Bolt (Evocation-4)?

Doesn't the feeblemind effect hurt normal troops at all, or is it just commanders?

And I imagine it does provide good spell backup, but I'd be seriously worried that something would take out your Seithkonur before they can start volleying. I assume you carry a SoS for that, but even so, how many rounds before you start 'firing'? Do you buff with protection spells first, or trust to no one getting to the Seithkonur?

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How about body etherial with Pythium's Theurg Acolytes? Pretty decent at the start of the game. You do pay with reduced research though.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well you use one, then when you get the tech you use the other =)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hurts everyone

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Latergame I usually have a SOS with me (pretender forged). I usually give the seithkona 5 skeleton guards each, with just group protection cast on the lot of em.

Re: Golden Age Arcoscephale
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you want to get to Thunder Strike, sure she'll kill more people. That's Evocation-4, though, and as I said, we're talking about the first 5 turns.

Though, if you can tell me how to get to Evocation-4 by turn 5, I'm all ears. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">At the time you posted this I think it should have been clear to everyone that the Virtue's main damage dealer is S-H-O-C-K-W-A-V-E. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Although a bit of Alteration research helps too. Mainly for Mirror Image if you have air 5+, or Mistform if you haven't.