Re: Exploit question
 

Without gemgens, the guy who has conquered the most provinces, as long as he also researched and found magic sites. As simple as that.

Oh no, he won't. Having to rely on weak troops when your opponent has strong troops is bad, and so far nobody managed to make it work.

That's just ridiculously false. When somebody tried to start a non-CBM 1.6 mod, people came and told him that he shouldnt. It was like a holy war against heresy.
Such crusading obviously worked, so its impossible to find a game with gemgens now. CBM was promoted until EVERYONE believed that nobody should play without it. It doesnt necessarily mean its true.
And then it changed the game in such a dramatic way.

Re: Exploit question
 

And with gemgens, it's exactly the same, with the caveat that the underwater races don't need the same number of provinces because they are harder to attack. Having more provinces with gem generators simply means that I'm going to be making more gemgens than you. The game breaks utterly when one can leverage incomes of hundreds of gems per turn.

Really? Nobody has ever managed it? Nobody has ever won while playing C'Tis? Caelum? Jotunheim? Any of the majority of the nations who have average quality troops?

No, people told him that they weren't interested in playing a game with gem generators. Look, I'm happy to play in one or two games a year where generators decide the outcome, just as long as I get to play R'lyeh, C'Tis or Bandar log in each case. Because that essentially means that if I can convince my neighbours to act as a buffer between hostile nations and myself
for just long enough, then I'm going to win the game by forging clams.

You could start your own games you know. But then you'd probably rather claim that you're being oppressed because you can't find people to play against who want to use your particular favourite set of rules. And is it really crusading when the arguments have been going on for six straight years?

Yes. It changed the game in a dramatic way for the better. People want to play with it both because the balance between nations is better and because it removes a huge amount of mandatory micromanagement from the late game.

Would you really choose to play a middle age game as Marignon with gemgens enabled? In a game where C'Tis, Oceania, R'lyeh and Bandar Log are your opponents? After all, you have better troops than all of them, and if you really prefer the strategic game with gemgens you should be happy to play any nation in such an environment.

Re: Exploit question
 

ComfortZone was the most recent vanilla game I joined, it started last Nov. Cleveland posted the OP, and it had 14 signups already the next day.

I agree that some of the early comments regarding gem gems in the "Clam Shortage" thread were out of line, especially the "go play with yourself" one. But if Xanatos had started a game that sounded more fun, with better parameters, and just stated right off some reasons that it was going to be include gem gens, he probably would have had more people join.

Kuritza, I didn't see any game thread in the MP forum started by you. "Clam Shortage" has got no graphs, it's all-age, and it's got no victory condition other than "last man standing/concession", on a 20+ player game. And it started off non-CBM and then switched to CBM, for additional unappealing wishy-washyness.

I think it's kind of ironical that you're complaining here about people not playing vanilla, but then you bailed on "Clam Shortage" because it included the vanilla nations LA Ermor and LA R'lyeh.

Re: Exploit question
 

No, not true, or rather not always true. Expansion IS important (every turn that I am not at war with somebody feels like a wasted turn once indies are eaten), of course, but if I invested more in diversification I can get an upper hand over somebody who invested everything into expansion.
Not true with CBM 1.6 anymore.

Really. Nobody managed to win for Bandar Log even with clams. Ctis and Jotunheim have OK troops, not to mention that most victories we know of were won with gemgens. MA Caelum has awesome combat mages while EA Caelum has thugs / combat mages.
But actually, I was responding to Baaltz's comment that somebody might show me the power of monkey troops. :)

Ha ha! :) Go win with Bandar Log. So far nobody did, over how many years? :))))
And, my oh my, not all games are won by Ctis and Rlyeh either. Not even by MA Pythium, although it kind of dominates MA. Maybe thats because clams are not the MAIN factor?

Then they will come and say OMG, dont ever start a game without CBM 1.6, vanilla is so ridiculously unbalanced, I've read it on the forums!

For you, perhaps. But not for me. And deciding for others is like playing a God.

Right now, it has worse balance between nations (MA Oceania without clams? haha) and gemgens did NOT add to micromanagement that much, its a nonsense. I played this game too, remember? To make clams is to give several extra orders per turn. How many clams are you forging?.. 3? 4? Thats 6 to 8 extra clicks.

Sure, I'd make a God who can summon a naiad to clam for me, and rush Bandar Log. And, oh wonder, MA Marignon has won 2 games in HoF *with gemgens*, while Bandar Log has won none.
Thanks for proving my point.

Oh well. I sort of regret it, but you must understand - I'm rather tired of Ermor/Rlyeh alliances in games with many new players. Setsumi was the last drop for me.
Ermor is even worse in CBM anyway, since, you see, troops are more important there.

Re: Exploit question
 

wait, are you kidding me? It all makes sense now. you have no idea what the micromanegment is. what about clicking every single guy with a clam and putting his pearl away one at a time because the pool button is a way to royally F*** yourself?

Re: Exploit question
 

Then maybe you need to learn to play better? Because every turn spent fighting when somebody else isn't fighting is another turn of income they've turned into castles and research mages that you haven't. So that could quite possibly be why you're not able to win. And really, if a player who is playing to rush can't beat somebody who is playing for a long term victory, then the balance is broken anyways.

Nobody has reported a win is what you mean. But then, nobody has reported a win with Vanheim either, and they are certainly not a weak nation, and only a single win has been reported for Ashdod. Clearly we can't really rely on the list of reported wins.

Now you're bringing mages into it. I thought you said that it was impossible to overcome poor national troops, and yet, now you're telling me that good combat mages can do so. Why don't you think through your statements before you make them?

In any game that lasts for sufficiently long, the winner will be the person who has forged more clams. There's some small caveats to that, given that some nations can survive wishes for armageddon better than others, but those aren't really that important.

Are you, in your extreme arrogance, not perhaps aware that there are plenty of people who have been playing Dominions for twice as long as you've been a member of this forum, and that these people are the primary ones behind the removal of gem generators? I've seen them ruin games for five years now, and I was ecstatic to see them finally removed.

Please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that you aren't trying to tell others how they should play the game.

No, they aren't horrible to make. The micromanagement comes in the fact that you typically put them on scouts, who will sit with the hide order, and require you to press 'n' more than a hundred times in a single province. If you hold it down too long, thanks to there not being a previous button, you have to go through it all over again to make sure you aren't missing any commanders. Blood stones require you to move slaves between scouts unless you pay your anti-micro tax and build labs everywhere. Then there are fever fetishes, which are micromanagement hell.

Are you aware that ignoring your opponent's arguments is usually considered to mean that you are conceding that they are correct? C'Tis and R'Lyeh have both won just as many games as Marignon in that survey. 44 games is far too small of a sample size to pull a proper distribution out of a dataset where there are are 23 possible victorious nations.

Personally I'd be happy to play Bandar Log against you on, say, Urgaia. But, since you've already indicated that you don't play the game anymore (Though why you hang around the forum then I don't know), I guess we'll have to skip that.

Re: Exploit question
 

Who is kidding whom again?
Ah wait. You probably didnt realize you can remember (write in a text file if thats easier for you) guys with clams for returning and global buffs, pool in the beginning of every turn and just give these guys pearls again.
Thats what I do, and it works like a charm, and it doesnt take much time.

Re: Exploit question
 

A classic l2p comment? Feel free to consider me a noob, its quite refreshing. :)
But its possible to build mages and fight at the same time, believe me or not.

Yep, nobody has reported a win, its the same thing. And no, I have reported a win with Vanheim, but HoF is not updated anymore. Vanheim is not that uber-strong anyway, it is rather limited in its magic... and it cant clam. :) Hehe. LA Vanheim is much stronger in my opinion.
Ashdod is banned all too often now, so cant blame them for not winning.

Of course I am. Combat mages are part of your military, arent they? And recruitable thugs too.

Not entirely true.

Perhaps you, in your extreme arrogance, are not aware that I was playing this game before I joined this forum, in another community, since Dominions II, and played Dominions I in single player? Now if you were playing this game before Dominions PPP... :P


Are you aware that you just ignored my arguments too? :)

Because I still play two games that already started? Once they are over, I will get everyone rid of my annoying presense. I didnt find this Urgaia game you mentioned, by the way. I was curious about its settings.
Or... you mean a 1vs1 game on a Urgaia map? And how would making a custom build for overcoming one opponent prove that monkey military is good enough without clams?

Re: Exploit question
 

Again, see Artifacts. I had at least one gem gen on every single commander that wasn't fighting, two on most, and shuffling the damn things around when I needed to pull commanders for combat duty was really horrible. Oh, and armageddons were going off, so scouts and the like had to be armored, or beefier clam holders were required. Until you've been through a post-armageddon 300+ gen income/turn stalemate you're really not in a good position to argue the effect of gens on the high-level games that are played.

Re: Exploit question
 

Except that you can build more mages when you aren't fighting. Every 1500 gold that goes into an army is essentially another castle+lab that you could have built.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that out of 44 games, one would expect at least a few nations to have no wins.

They are part of your military. They are not part of your national troops.

Really? Then how do you plan to win if your opponent has 100+ clams while you have 50? He can dispel any globals you put up, and will always outproduce you. Never mind that there is absolutely no reason why a player that controls more than half the map shouldn't win in the first place.

How? Seeing as how Bandar Log's troops (Especially white ones) are nearly as good as Marignon's, and seeing as how Marignon won't have sufficient astral power in a rush situation to deal with the MR 8 on the other monkeys, I don't see how their troops are going to make a rush that easy. Plus, summoning Naiads to forge clams means that you won't have as many as the person who doesn't have to spend water gems on mages.

No such game currently exists. And I'm also not foolish enough to think that a single duel game would make any difference to your opinion at all. What it would do is merely show that their military is not as pathetic as you seem to think it is. They have elephants, so they can expand about as fast as double blessed Mictlan, and their other troops are adequate.

Re: Exploit question
 

And still, its better to balance conquest with research. All-out turtling doesnt win, even now with clams.

Actually, this is just what I mean. Out of 44 games (more now, actually), weakest nations have no wins.

Сasuistry?

If you turtled all the way as you suggested early (because every turn you spend fighting is a wasted turn, right?) while another player expanded, he will have much more gems from his lands, and probably a discount site which is often a game-winner.

Kek. :) A good one.

Fire magic maybe. Or massed x-bows against these bucklers. In my experience, Bandar Log are not much of a treat early.

True, you wont have as many. Still, quantity isnt always the main factor.
By the way... In order to clam, Bandar Log either need to summon a Yakshiny or Naga, or construction 6 and two boosters. (One of which requires water 3 to make, but thats a minor detail indeed).

Yes, because duels and full games are quite different.

Re: Exploit question
 

I have a feeling this discussion could be heading down Monkey PD Boulevard soon.

Re: Exploit question
 

)))))))))))))

Re: Exploit question
 

Well, I can see how CBM being in 95% of the games would make it seem that way. Like was said, if a new person comes to the forums and sees it being used so much, is told constantly that it's the standard, etc they might not have the opportunity to make any other choice. I don't know about it being just one person, but if a small but prominent group trumpets it, many of the bystanders will just go along. Many people are probably largely indifferent, but would set up games just because the pro-CBM contingent is more vocal/active/whatever than the anti-CBM group.

Re: Exploit question
 

This whole "Everyone wants everyone to play CBM so it means newbies use CBM" is not true. Take this game for example - It is a game set by newbies for mostly newbies, in which I suggested using CBM, but they preferred the vanilla game to that to actually learn the game as it was made, not how the community wants it to look. I'd still suggest starting playing with CBM if a new such game was hosted, but it's purely up to the host/players to decide the game settings, not the community. Of course, if community doesn't want to play a horribly unbalanced vanilla game (and admit it, some nations are simply very very much stronger than others still even in CBM), they won't. Simple as that. But I've yet to see anyone prove this point despite throwing such accusations around. I was in ComfortZone myself, but I was eliminated by three or four player alliance in the midgame, and it was definitely fun.

Kuritza, I know you've sworn quitting the game, but I'd really suggest you to start a non-CBM game if you want to play in one, or play with CBM 1.5 (with gemgens) or modify CBM 1.6 to enable gem gens again if you think that is the only point. You keep talking about how this change if wrong, when judged by most experienced players it is not. And like I've stated before, I don't agree with all the changes in the CBM, but it definitely makes the game much more fun to play with much more options and better overall balance.

Re: Exploit question
 

I agree with Quitti.
I was a newb regarding DOM 3 MP games and joined 2 games about 2 months ago: One is vanilla,the other CBM 1.6.
The vanilla game filled very fast and consists of some newbies and some more experienced players also.
The consensus in the vanilla game(Casual EA) was not using CBM to get the original feeling of the game,the developers wanted it to be.
I must say,now that both games are around Turn 40,that personally,i find CBM much superior to vanilla.
I dont agree on all changes it makes,but on most.
I especially like how it increases the options on pretender design,which clearly is a big downside in vanilla,since most Pretender chassis are simply too weak and/or expensive to take.
And you have to consider,while CBM now removes Clams,most of the so called "clam nations" have been slightly improved in other areas or simply benefit more than others from the overall balance changes e.g. better early summoning spells via cheap dragon master.

Ive played a lot of DOm2 MP End games and i know what it means to battle it out with hundreds of clam holders.
Turns taking 12 hours+ mainly because its so tough to micro all the artifacts/gem gens and deciding how to spend those 300+ gems the most effective way.Thats not fun,thats a pain.

Re: Exploit question
 

The CMB doesn't balance nations. Especially with the removal of gem gems (which I am all for BTW) the nations are unbalanced in a completely different way than in the vanilla game - bandar, machaka and the like weakened, blood nations made stronger due to fewer gems (which can probably be offset by higher magic settings), etc. But the fact is that regarding nations, CBM is as unbalanced as the vanilla. Magic system is better with lesser summons cheaper (sometimes too cheap) to make them worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend new players to start with the vanilla version.

Oh, and BTW I think Bogus and co. can be used with their orders, but orders shouldn't be copied to other units.

Re: Exploit question
 

Could you explain, by the way, which nations are so unbalanced in Vanilla compared to CBM? Mictlan? Now that it retains blood magic while gemgens are void its possibly stronger than ever.
Buffs to 'clam nations'... you mean the naiad warriors? ))))))))))))))))) Its the best joke ever, really.
Oh, and the hero blades. Because national troops should remain important, and woe to thee if yours suck.

I wholeheartedly agree that pretender options are better in CBM, and thats why I preferred CBM to Vanilla myself until now.

Re: Exploit question
 

I am under the impression that CBM favors early SC pretenders wich is defenitely the least fun idea of a game.

*Titan like pretenders have reduced new path costs and sometimes reduced cost overall
*const 0 under CBM has most equipement (swords, shields, etc) to free early research towards Alt

So its such a no-brainer that you will rarely see anything else in MP with CBM.

Re: Exploit question
 

Er, I think that's just entirely untrue.

Re: Exploit question
 

Torin:
That is definitely not my experience with CBM at all.

Nations that want a big bless still take a big bless.

Some starting SC chasses have had their costs increased to make them balanced. Gorgon and PoD come to mind.

Rainbow chasses are generally buffed, making them much stronger choices.

Titan chasses are generally horrible awake SCs. They often need equipment to SC, and you may or may not have the gem income to forge any early. What titans are good at is (1) mid game SCing and (2) bless chasses because they combine a couple paths with high base dominion.

The good starting SC chasses are either made worse in CBM or left unchanged for the most part. Wyrm is unchanged afaik, PoD, Gorgon, and probably Moloch are more expensive, and so on. Cyclops has also been nerfed, and he can potentially SC out of the box (although he really wants a weapon if nothing else).

Re: Exploit question
 

Its far too early to tell imo.
CBM 1.6 is for sure not the end of the road.
After lots of games being played out under it,we might see the whole impact no gem gens has on this complex environment and might get a very well balanced CBM 1.7.

For me ,Astral Magic was way too overpowered due to gem gens.
Its all about counters.
There are several ways to counter a strong blood nation for example...since it has to actually defend its territory in order to keep the economy going.Also you cant alchemize your blood slaves and most summons are limited,with often several blood nations fighting for the uniques.
Talking about clam hording nations with astral magic,what can you do against them if you dont have lots of clams and/or decent astral magic yourself?
Now with the bigger maps in Dom3 ,its often very tough to do something against that nation you know that is clam hoarding,but is turtling at the other end of the map.
And those horders can easily use their clams to alchemize to death or Nature,too,for countless tartarians.
So,what i am saying,basically you need water+Nature and probably good astral to stand a chance in any medium to bigger sized maps with gem gens.That IS definately taking away a lot of strategic options for most nations

Talking about Machaka is interesting.
They dont got any Astral and are more in Fever Fetish forging than Clam hoarding.
I seriously think Machaka does a lot better in no gem gens games now simply because other nations cant forge clams.

Btw, i would like to see the fever fetish remaining in the game,with maybe slightly cost increase , anyways.
In addition there has to be some earth booster instead of the blood stone.

Re: Exploit question
 

You can get clams and/or decent astral magic yourself. I did it with Bogarus, Vanheim, LA Man etc, you just have to plan ahead. And it doesnt exclude all other possibilities, as far as I am concerned, except killing everyone with just your superiour troops around turn 50.

Re: Exploit question
 

[quote=Kuritza;723249
You can get clams and/or decent astral magic yourself. I did it with Bogarus, Vanheim, LA Man etc, you just have to plan ahead. And it doesnt exclude all other possibilities, as far as I am concerned, except killing everyone with just your superiour troops around turn 50.[/QUOTE]


That means every single game is built around forging clams,right?
Every single time you build a pretender regardless of the nation u have to think about how to get clams and to cast astral spells.
And even if you plan ahead that way every time,you end up without any chance vs the real astral or clam powerhouses that dont have to rely on path boosters/lucky indie mages for forging or the pretender/indie mages for casting astral rituals.

This is exactly why many nations are nearly unplayable on big maps under vanilla if you are up vs competent opponents.

No gem gens means much more room for nation specific strategies.
Its time to plan ahead DIFFERENTLY,relying on clam hoarding isnt the game winner anymore.

Re: Exploit question
 

but what about late game with limited gems? You'd probably see dragged out stalemates until somebody lucks in keeping a game-winning global up? Everybody is forced to invest in blood? Castling every province to keep the defense bonus and get spawning summons everywhere?

I don't see any chance to end the game unless there is something completely unbalancing in which you have to invest initially but that develops into an unbeatable juggernaught.

To my - limited - experience clams are competing for much needed N gems, so you give up performance mid-game to achieve the effect. If it were that they cost 15N5W or (15N15W for more difficult path requirements) the initial investment is steep enough so that you have to chose to thug out another guy or forge a clam; ditch the earlier parts of a game just to get to the requirements for eventually snowballing returns.

Some players will do at the risk of getting eliminated early, some will not and might get rolled over in the end. But that is a strategic choice.

To sum it up, what do you think should the end game look like and by what means do you think one should decide the winner?

Re: Exploit question
 

This is completely untrue. The titan class pretenders were boosted because they were really bad deals in cbm. They are still not a good choice if you want an early SC. Midgame with decent magic and scales, sure.

Re: Exploit question
 

[quote=fantasma;723253]but what about late game with limited gems? You'd probably see dragged out stalemates until somebody lucks in keeping a game-winning global up? Everybody is forced to invest in blood? Castling every province to keep the defense bonus and get spawning summons everywhere?

QUOTE]

You would see....diversity!

And about limited gems...e.g. 200 gems per turn should be still enough for lot of end game action+ you can play bigger maps or increase magic sites if you want more.

-Games may last longer on average,but since the turns take less time to play without microing gem gens,thats ok imo.
-Blood isnt nearly as game breaking as having say 300+astral income per turn.Skipping Blood,or only going very small into it, is perfectly viable imo.Also ,as i said earlier,if more players compete for Blood,Blood becomes weaker bc of the limited summons+you cant alchemize it.
-Game winning globals are very tough to cast without clams.
You would risk to be a lot behind in other areas to do that.
Dont forget,u can still alchemize your other gems for astral if you have to dispel that nasty global,the opponent just put up.
-tartarian commanders will be fewer in numbers,bc wishing for the chalice will be tough,and GoH will only be possible for good nature nations.
-National troops will be more useful in end game since everyone has less powerful magic troops.
-Expansion will probably be more important right from the start,since more provinces=more gems.
Waging war early will become more profitable again,but turtling still remains an option because of superior research.
-Players losing a war and wishing for armageddon before going AI wont be seen.

Re: Exploit question
 

That sounds awesome, actually. Late-game would be more different for each nation, and nations wouldn't be locked into all the same strategies.

Re: Exploit question
 

Yep, I called it. Fell deep into troll territory.

Dominions without gem gens isn't worth playing because you have no options

Everyone is forced to play with the latest version of CBM despite the fact many people wish they could just play vanilla

Nations with troops having obvious weaknesses are unplayable

Come on now, what's the point of trying to argue with somebody who vehemently asserts and defends positions such as these? I would offer to show him that monkey troops can be far from worthless but its pointless. Bandar vs Marginon? Sure, just fight under iron bane for a great equalizer. Toss in a couple other support spells and watch markatas tear the living crap out of dual blessed Knights of the Chalice while any Marignon support mage with more than F1 evaporates under magic duels anytime they step out of a castle. Xbows? Sure, they're pretty good against unsupported monkey PD, but you do realize Bandar has access to everything from arrow fend, storm, mist, and battle fortune to chaff spells like swarm and howl, right? Those xbows firing every other turn doing much for you now against a big swarm of berzerking monkeys? What in the holy hell do you think you're gonna bring to any real fight that is going to win, much less dominate?

But, like I said, it's a pointless discussion. Obviously he's got it all figured out and not interested in considering playing Bandar in anyway other than spamming clams until you have a never ending stream of Rudras. Or, more likely, he's trolling.

Re: Exploit question
 

No he'd like to troll but he can't because a select group of players have completely taken out that part of the forums and gang up on anyone who says otherwise.

Re: Exploit question
 

Seriously, don't you think that without gem-gens game will drag out endlessly without anybody gaining significant power to win the game, especially on bigger maps?

Btw, I like the monkeys.

Re: Exploit question
 

No, that's rather a large part of getting rid of gem gens - you can actually impact people's income by attacking them thus making it easier to end the game.

Re: Exploit question
 

As an aside, if you want to weaken blood magic you would probably increase both magic site % and income/resources/supply %. By linearly scaling up everything EXCEPT population, you are effectively just decreasing population, which means weaker blood nations. Conversely, on minimal-income map settings, blood nations would dominate since they're the only ones who can efficiently convert population into units.

-Max

Re: Exploit question
 

Actually, magic site % has an effect on blood hunt if tests run on ForgeOfGodhood, so changing it wouldn't strengthen nor weaken blood economy.

Re: Exploit question
 

It's funny how everyone manages to leave Niefelheim and Hinnom out of the list of nations that are hurt by gens being removed, since they're great at making them. It's not like the devs had some master plan where the crappy nations were the only ones that could make the gens, plenty of the really good nations have access as well, which means that a lot of the hand-wringing over the supposed nerfing that "clam nations" take is overwrought, since it's a lot closer to 0-sum than the alarmists would have everyone believe. (Though admittedly giving everyone more resources to work with does help weaker nations more than strong ones.) Plus it's really closer to a 0-sum game in general since everyone gets into clamming sooner or later anyhow. On the other side of the coin, some of the weak nations (MA Agartha is the poster-child here, but EA Agartha and LA Man have pretty solid claims as well) have NO access to any of the gens on their national mage paths, and they're the nations that are gonna have the hardest time affording more pretender time to diversify into the gens.

As Baalz said, removing gens is designed to link resources to holding territory, which is designed to force people to move their armies and try to hold territory instead of being able to turtle in one province with 300 gems a turn coming in. Artifacts had gens and did an admirable job getting bogged down, and Preponderance had to be dragged out back and shot because of the crazy gem spiral that developed (I was looking at hitting 40 clams/turn, which was about the most I could manage due to the 50-slot lab limit.) Seems like the new generation of games is doing a lot better in terms of progressing along.

And to paraphrase Zeldor: Gens are a really lousy way to balance weak nations, why don't we just mod them so they don't suck and are interesting to play instead of introducing a really bad mechanic that happens to help them out a little more than other nations?

Re: Exploit question
 

We have listened to yet another round of Baalz's theorycrafting, which is always very interesting and contains some valid ideas, yet sometimes just doesnt work. How come that nobody, NOBODY made it work for Bandar Log yet, huh? Unstoppable horde of wild apes, a sight to be remembered... to bad it just doesnt happen. Note that I am talking about Bandar because I have some first-hand knowledge about them in MP; there are other nations in more or less same state. Good luck winning with monkey military without massed summons against anything with real armies, really.

Another nice way of proving somebody wrong is to declare him a troll. Hi guys, my nickname is Kuritza and I am a troll. :) Yeah, sure. Fast expansion as the only way to win and nations with weaker military being reduced to nothing, its ok because some old players say so. For other old players too. And I am a just troll. I dont mind, well, its quite... funny. ))

Now for being constructive... one possible solution would be to ask Devs for another patch, hard-limiting each gemgen to ~50 (or something like that) per nation. Or, even better, maybe a maximum of ~100 (75, 50) gemgens of all types, so you arent oblidged to make exactly 50 bloodstones, fetishes and clams to compete with others.
Problem solved.

Re: Exploit question
 

BL isn't an easy nation to play, so I'm not surprised they haven't been leveraged that effectively. Regardless, I'm confused as to why they're even under discussion here...they don't have any capital W income for clams, no national E income for hammers, can only site search both paths manually at level one, and need to take a detour to conj-4 to get access to hammer forgers and clammers, barring a sub 1% chance of Rishi randoms, and don't have real access to the other two gens, so they seem like they come out ahead of the curve by getting rid of gens.

Re: Exploit question
 

Monkey nations can NEVER win because of their PD they can NEVER win NEVER.

Re: Exploit question
 

Yes, they fall out here amongst other things. ))))) But at least they benefit from clams greatly.
Before the clam nerf, I saw them as an initially weak, potentially very dangerous race with many interesting possibilities. Some of them I have found in Baalz's guide, but sticking to them as your main strategy would be plain suicidal. With some luck, monkeys may even leave the ranks of chronic losers before its too late for them and clams are gone... alas, there's a small obstacle represented by Toran's Pythium in their way. )))))

Only Bandar Log. ))) Others have already scored some victories.

Re: Exploit question
 

The problem is that people haven't realized that Ghanas are the go to troops for Bandar Log and all this theorizing just misses the point.

Bandar Log is a death nation. D9 white ones rule the world.

Or really crank up the action with B9D9. I've tested it against Agartha and Oceania and it rocks. Wins every time in single player. Although I did have to boost the AI's by setting independents to 9.

Re: Exploit question
 

Someone really needs to conduct some statistics on the HoF.

In particular, I would imagine BL has not won a game almost entirely due to the impression that they are weak, and thus occur in significantly less games than nations which are perceived as strong. If we looked at how many games BL failed to win that it actually could win, I'd be willing to bet you could reject the claim that they have done significantly worse than expectation. Heck, even assuming they've been in *every MA game ever recorded* you probably still couldn't demonstrate they've done worse than expectation given the sample size.

I would take BL over Eriu any day, clams or no clams. Heck, I'd take BL over a number of nations in MA.

Re: Exploit question
 

I don't think it's really necessary to respond to a claim based on the HoF record of wins. It's anecdotal evidence at best.

Re: Exploit question
 

Some people end games in a draw rather than slog through the extreme suck at the end, just to get their names on some list. The dom3 gui does not provide for effective management of large amounts of stuff, and it seems more like work than play once you get to a point where: you have to watch how much you are forging, in order not to fill up your lab; you have to track future gear for 3 or 4 thugs; you have to refill used gems on BF/BE-casting mages; you have to hire a Elludian Moon Mage in province #333, a Circle Master in province #421, and a Adept in #127 -- none of which provinces you've got a fort in anyway.

Back to the point: there was an MP game, "Blessing", that ended this way, and Kailasa was pretty much rocking the world with a large number of astral summons. Even though they had the Monkey PD.

Re: Exploit question
 

Kailasa is a very strong nation with clams included. Either way, 43 recorded games, assuming that 40% (optimistic) is MA is 17 games, MA has 23 nations, BL is one of them (4.3% of the nations are BL), they are percieved to be a weak nation by many (and they do require skill to play correctly) so let's say if one game averages bit more than half the nations of MA, and bit less than half of those include BL, that'd mean they are in about 6-7 of the games even listed in HoF.

23 nations. 43 games in which 7 BL has taken part of. They haven't won, when there are:
a) Ashdod
b) Pythium
c) Shinuyama
d) other strong nations, include your preference
in the game.

Now if I've learned anything about statistics, a sample size of that amount (7 games out of 20 viable to even consideration out of which 4.3% of the nations has never won) doesn't quarantee a good place to do assumptions upon. Especially in a game like dom3 where luck plays a part of the game.

The point with the 'BL not in HoF = it's bad nation' is moot. Thank you.

Re: Exploit question
 

Since quitti likes being deliberately obtuse, I have decided to be clear.

The totally useless PD of Bandar Log nations is why it has never registered a single win in multi-player. The mages change, and troops are, of course, replacable, but it has never registered a win. NOT ONCE. Why?

Because for 230 gold, or less, you can create an "invincible raiding force" that will defeat any Bandar Log PD below 20. After 20 the one Bandar monkey per point makes things mildly more difficult, but not much. You'll probably need 10-20 more gold in archers per point to route all the little monkeys which will route the bandar(you don't ever have to fight the bandar, you just have to make sure they route quickly). That's it. Raid the hell out of them. Easy.

For reference, this is the pathetic Ape PD per point:
Some Markata "soldiers"(Morale 7, Melee Damage 8, yes 8, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
Some Markata "archers"(Morale 7, Bow Damage 6, yes 6, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
1/2 Per Point(YES THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT) Atavi "Soldier"(Morale 8, Protection 1)
1/2 Per Point(YES, AGAIN, THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT!) Atavi "Archer"(Morale 8, Protection 1)

I'm just wondering if it's intentional that PD prevent Bandar Log, in any game, with any settings, from winning. Ever.

Also, if you will notice, KissBlade, the only dedicated Patala (a very similar nation to Bandar Log) Player, has built his entire nation around anti-raiding power. That is, he gets the Vampire Queen. This is the correct thing for KissBlade to do.

HOWEVER, IT IS PATHETIC THAT THE ENTIRE PRETENDER DESIGN BE DETERMINED BY WEAK PD.

Re: Exploit question
 

I thought you were being sarcastic Sombre, but it seems you really believe that? By that logic Eriu should win almost every game they're in because they can smear almost everybody's PD left and right with cheap recruit anywhere thugs. Bandar Log is a challenging nation, no argument, but its disadvantages are far from being unable to be overcome. I must say I'm getting a bit frustrated by the cursory dismissal of suggested strategies I have *ACTUALLY USED* to defeat people as being unrealistic. I'd be happy to duel somebody who thinks Bandar is unwinnable so it can be demonstrated to me what it is that I'm missing. Should be easy enough since they can't ever win, right? I shouldn't even be able to put up a real fight I'd assume.

My challenge:
2 players
Me: Bandar Log
You: your choice of C'tis, Agartha, Machaka, Abysia, Jotunheim, Arco, Ermor, Vanheim, Pangea, Ulm, Shinuyama, Marignon, Mictlan
Research: easy
# of provinces: 50, randomly generated
CBM 1.6
All other settings default

Re: Exploit question
 

Monkey PD is fine. You just need to station 2 or 3 D9 blessed Apsaras in every province with an indy priest. Morale problems solved and you get that wonderful D9 banish spam.

Re: Exploit question
 

Some of you dewds should go back to IRC and just talk about people in private rather than bully them in public.

Re: Exploit question
 

Back to IRC? Madness! That's where we devise our most prized stratagems! It's only here you'll see them put into action!

Re: Exploit question
 

gem-gens were broken. gem-gens were solely responsible for many players quitting games and many games ending in draws. gem-gens will only work on small enough maps with small enough numbers of players (so form a small game and use 1.6cbm with gemgens reinstated)...


as far as unintentionally nerfing or buffing nations well... most of the nations which are bad and got nerfed too much "unintentionally" also have had many many many many balance patches coming from cbm too!

bad nations that rely on clams are WORSE in vanilla than in cbm1.6 ... oceania commanders costs reduced and hinnom commanders costs increase etc etc etc... and i'm sure cbm 1.8 will have even better balance



gem-gens are a dominating strategy of unimaginable power... when you play on a large map and 5different players are casting wish for gems everyturn and then some wars break out and 10armageddons get cast and then theres no more income left anywhere in the world and no more troops because of upkeep ... yeah... that'll be fun why don't we just all play games where there is 0income 0resources0supply and 100magical site settings

oh and then theres the player without gemgens who is winning in every category and starts attacking players with gem gens.... he takes half their provinces and then he realizes that they have 10times his gem income despite having half his gem income on the graphs and then he gets attacked by 100tarts being lead by 10fully geared tarts



also it's very common for games to be more popular with mods than without... things like x3, sev, moo3, ja2, beta-mount-blade ...etc...

years of testing and hundreds of hours of work into fanmade patches almost always improve games!