|
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Urban myths:
US foreign aid financing the 3rd world, is one of the premium urban myths of our times. While the actual value in USD is great, large parts of it can hardly be described as aid. Also per capita value is less then for most other rich/western countries. Here you can get a breakdown: http://www.peacehost.net/mdpc/USAIDvsPoverty.html I know many of you will claim this link is biased, and you are probably right. But it is still much closer to the truth than what some of you obviously believe. (Guess my cred is gone forever now, since I promised not to post in this thread again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
The only US president in the Last 50 years with any foreign policy going in was Bush Sr. (Yeah I know he's not really Sr, but it's easier to say then George Herbert Walker Bush. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) Maybe JFK if you count living in England as the son of an Ambasador as foreign policy experience. The truth that most americans don't realize is that the President has very little positive or negative impact on the economy. It's affected by policy changes to some extent, but those changes take years to have any measurable effect. And usually even then the effect they have is negligble. It's like throwing rocks in a stream. They might cause some ripples on the surface, but they aren't going to change the course all that much. Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
I guess some people don't like my anti-Bush anti-Saddam anti-Europe anti-corporations Pro-Israel political stance. I guess some people are rating based in anything but SE4. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Thermodyne:
Here is a page I think very few people will dismiss as leftist propaganda. Scroll down to Economic aid (Military aid is taken out). http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...esanddefs.html $ 6.9 Billion, That’s a whooping 25 bucks per capita. I know private American organizations do a great job. World Bank: Donations to the World Bank can hardly be considered Aid. I think Andrès will have a few chosen word to say on this. The World Bank together with some local politicians will have to take most/all of the blame for the wrecking of the Argentinean economy. And, Norway and EU and the other OECD contries are equal partners with USA in the World Bank, so this is not USA bashing. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
As for Argentina, they barrowed the money, so they have the responsibility to take care of the debt. Corruption and stupid politicians are no excuse. If they were willing to make significant economic reforms, then I doubt they would have to make any payments in the near term. The loans were intended for economic development, not urban renewal and personal enrichment. This is a problem that will have to be dealt with by the people of Argentena. It is also not a problem that they suffer from alone. Here in the US, many states also seem to have the same problem. [ February 27, 2003, 16:04: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
If you "just" want to reduce the likeliness of such an act of terrorism, that's a good thing to do. But will you reach it that aim in the end by invading Iraq? I don't think so. When the US attacks Iraq, the ranks of the terrorists will once again grow with dissatisfied and hateful people willing to bLast themselves into orbit if they can take just one US citizen with them. What about the Kurds in northern Iraq? The already are independent from Baghdad because of US military air support and have formed an autonomic northern Kurdish Iraq. Now the Kurds fear that in the wake of the US troops the Turks will come in and never leave again. They are even ready to fight the Turks! For them it's not a blessing when the US invades but maybe the end to their very young government and freedom. Iraq exile opposition is on the barricades because the Bush administration will install a military government over Iraq to form it into an democratic state - without the Iraqi people the US prepared and supported for this event since the Last gulf war. But if you really must go to Iraq, please, make it right, don’t leave premature! If you really want to establish a solid democracy in Iraq you have to de-baath it and stay there until some democratic culture has been established. Are you willing to stay that long? Are you willing to stay there when most of the population hate your guts? Bush has already announced that he won't stay long in Iraq (2 years IIRC). Make that 20 years to make it right. In an hostile environment. Where no one, not the people in Iraq nor the neighbours like you. With Northern Korea knocking on the nuclear door. And Osama still on the run. I hope for the best but fear for the worst… |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
Askan |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Wow, interesting figures Primitive. You have lost no cred with me...
|
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
Where was the fourth plane headed? The White House? We'll probably never know for sure. Does working for Cantor Fitzgerald make you lose your status as a civilian and make you a valid target? I think not. Of course, the same applies to all the Iraqi civilians. The difference is that they won't be being targetted deliberately, assuming that the plan of action this time round is to avoid targetting all those baby milk factories that Baghdad seems to be stuffed with. Actually, winning hearts and minds will be much easier if the infrastructure is kept intact and civilian deaths are kept to a minimum - but will the military planners accept the increased risk to the invading troops? (Iraqi soldiers will be able to defend better if their power stations, bridges, roads etc. are all intact) Quote:
Saudi Sheikh's impoverished kitchen boy: "Yes, damn those decadent infidels for ravaging our country"<font color="white">*</font> It's too easy to blame foreign companies. Not that they're spotless, a force for good or anything like that (I seem to have reason to curse Micro$oft every day - if only Word wasn't so awkward to use at times). Quote:
Quote:
If the next actions after Iraq are to get North Korea to stop f***ing about (dunno what the official diplomatic term is) and to make serious attempts to get a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian situation, things may change for the better. But it will take some time. Quote:
I'm glad that the US is awake to the fact that firing the odd cruise missile at Iraq isn't a decent long-term solution, but it's a pity that it took such a horrific event to do it. It's also a pity the PR war has been almost completely lost (the Axis of Evil speech, threatening Iraq before going to the UN, having George Bush as president). Personally, I think whoever has the biggest stick should wave it rather than sit back and do nothing. Of course, it was much easier when Victoria was on the throne, our stick wasn much larger and the enemy carried nothing more dangerous than sharpened fruit... Quote:
And yes, it was the worst possible timing to scrap the large carriers a few years before we had to fight in the kind of conflict they were perfect for. <hr> <font color="white">*</font> not a very good joke, sorry. For a better one, watch the 'What have the Romans ever done for us?' scene from Monty Python's Life Of Brian. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
Also since it was on the seven o’clock news Last night, I guess it is Ok to say that the air war started 8 weeks ago. We have been aggressively taking down Iraq’s air defense systems in the south at the rate of 100 sorties a week. And the rules of engagement are scheduled to change from FWFO to FOW this weekend. In the Last 10 days over 300 sorties were flown. [ February 27, 2003, 12:52: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
It looks to me as if the real problem is that the world bank didn't blush and forgive some or all of the debt when Argentina said "I won't make my payments." Don't kid yourself. I know more about Argentine politics than you might think. I work in agricultural marketing and my company's actions are affected every day by the import and export totals of many countries (of which Argentina is one.) We watched these developments closely. It was reminiscent of a bad game of JUNTA (remember that one?) I would point out that, at least in part, the collapse of Argentina's currency involved a change in goverment policy that prevented the sellers of grain (a MAJOR export item) from getting fair value for their commodities once the currency exchange rate started to slide. The exporters were put into a position that made it their best interest to NOT sell their grain. This caused a chain reaction that destroyed any hope of generating enough money to make the payments to to world bank. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
As for Korea, that is a UN problem. The south’s economy is strong enough to more than match the north’s military might. Their will to defend themselves is another thing. Both sides deserve to have the UN get right on this. Perhaps the UN will scare them into disarming with a barrage of harsh wishy washy words. Personally, I would give the south several short range nukes of their own. Then I would see if the north wanted to talk about unification and disarmament. They could make peace or kill each other off, either way it works for me. I’m tired of what it has cost to defend that sorry little piece of rock and dirt. I guess it’s a good thing that I’m not in charge around here? Probably been playing too much SE, it makes you casual about glassing planets and such. At least in SE4 it is a little harder to nuke whole systems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ February 28, 2003, 01:41: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Yes Samurai you're correct that the fixed currency exchange rate, known as "convertibility" started to slide and prevented our exports to sell at a competitive price.
(I was going to attempt to explain the historical situations that lead to that situation, and why it was prolonged more than necessary but it would take too long, and I'm not as good in history as I'd like) What you fail to mention that the IMF and WB encouraged that economic policy, and that imperialistic companies took advantage of that to sell us goods we didn’t have access to before at prices that appeared cheap to us, while they lent money to the government to sustain that fictional economy. Making your employee have a debt with you with a debt that he will never be able to pay is one of the modern shapes of slavery. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Hey aleast the guy with the most votes won the election in Iraq http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ...
Now that is a Troll... Good debate going on... I am alittle disappointed in Powell Lately. I thought that cat had his head screwed on correctly... Or did he really learn something to make him change so quickly. Time will tell.. Lets hope they do not use another Gulf of Tonkin or Iraq is built up to invade Saudi Lies... |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
Everyone seems to have some wierd idea that it's pronounced "Coal-in". Which is stupid. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
LAST POST!!!
I WIN THE DEBATE!!! |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Check out this article I got in an email:
Confronting Iraq February 11, 2003 Before we started seriously mobilizing to confront Saddam, I wrote several articles on dealing with Saddam. In brief, I recommended giving Saddam 10 days notice to stand down all of his weapons and draw back whatever "sleeper cells" he had placed in or knew about in America. The threat was specific. If he did not do this in 10 days, a section of Bagdad and several military bases would be obliterated with neutron weapons. The reasons which prompted this position were and are vital - as follows: First, we know that Saddam had and, no doubt, yet has the following Chemical and Biological Agents: Summary: Since 1991 Gulf War, despite what was destroyed by the previous UN inspection teams, Saddam reconfigured 30 facilities. He has Mustard Gas/Blister Agent; CS Tear Gas; Nerve Gases including Tabun (GA) and Sarin (GB); VX Nerve Agents of which UNSCOM was unable to verify quantities destroyed BUT, 200-250 tons of VX Nerve Gases were unaccounted for. In its new declaration to the UN of this year, Iraq declared an addition 350 and 500 gauge and 100/250 gauge aerial bombs filled with CS. He also has Agent 15 - an incapacitant gas, similar to agent BZ produced by the U.S. (1) Iraq has declared that it weaponized for chemical weapons purposes the following munitions: RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenades and 82mm and 120mm mortar shells exclusively for CS; 130mm and 155mm artillery shells for mustard agent; 250- and 500-gauge aerial bombs for mustard, Tabun, Sarin and CS; 122mm rockets, R-400 and DB-2 aerial bombs for Sarin and mixtures of GB/GF; and Al Hussein missile warheads for Sarin. Of these, Iraq acquired the capability to produce all of the aerial bomb types listed and the Al Hussein missile warheads and chemical containers for 122mm rockets. Iraq's chemical warfare program was of enormous scope both in terms of scale and breadth. With respect to the issue of chemical warfare agent production, and based on Iraq's chemical FFCD of June 1996, the following material balance of chemical warfare agents and their precursors procured abroad and produced by Iraq in the period from 1981 to 1990 was presented by UNSCOM October 1997: [S/1997/774]: Type of material Quantity (tons) Remarks Precursor chemicals produced and procured More than 20,000 Some 4,000 tons of declared precursors are not verified owing to the absence of information sought by the Commission from suppliers. Chemical warfare agents produced 3,850 Whether several hundred tons of additional chemical warfare agents were produced cannot be established owing to the uncertain quantities of precursors (mentioned in 1 above). Chemical warfare agents consumed in the period from 1981 to 1988 2,870 No documents or information on the consumption of CW has been provided by Iraq to support the declared quantities consumed. Without supporting documents the verification of this part of the material balance is impossible. Chemical warfare agents destroyed under UNSCOM supervision 690 Declared quantities were verified by the Commission. Chemical warfare agents discarded during production, or destroyed during aerial bombardment in 1991 290 Iraq has not provided supporting documentation for 130 tons of chemical warfare agents declared to have been discarded or destroyed. In the area of chemical warfare munitions, based on Iraq's FFCD of June 1996, a material balance of munitions either procured abroad and produced by Iraq, for CW purposes, in the period from 1981 to 1990 was presented by UNSCOM in October 1997 [S/1997/774]: Type of munitions Quantity Remarks Empty munitions produced and procured 247,263 Some 107,500 empty casings have not been verified owing to the absence of information sought by the Commission from the suppliers. Munitions filled with chemical warfare agents or components 152,119 Whether several thousand additional munitions were filled with chemical warfare agents cannot be established owing to the uncertain quantities of procured munitions (mentioned in 1 above). Filled munitions consumed in the period from 1981 to 1988 101,080 No documents or information on the consumption of chemical munitions has been provided by Iraq to support the declared quantities consumed. Without supporting documents the verification of this part of the material balance is impossible. Filled and empty munitions destroyed unilaterally by Iraq 29,172 Unilateral destruction of 15,620 munitions is not verifiable owing to the destruction methods used by Iraq (melting and demolition). Filled and empty munitions destroyed under UNSCOM supervision 38,537 Declared quantities were verified by the Commission. Filled and empty munitions discarded by Iraq or destroyed during aerial bombardment in 1991 78,264 Iraq has not provided supporting documentation for 16,038 discarded chemical munitions. Note. The margin of error in the accounting presented by Iraq is in the neighborhood of 200 munitions. (2) In most cases there either are no antidotes or cures. Even with such cures and antidotes, the victim may not fully recover, assuming that they are treated quickly. If Saddam launches a saturation attack, there may be too many victims to receive timely treatment (called ‘casualty surge’). Saddam has threatened all invaders, including American soldiers both going into Iraq and those stationed in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Turkey will be fired upon. (Note! They will be fired upon with area-wide weapons which mean exactly as it sounds - across a broad area. This translates into using many of the substances mentioned in the U.N. table of toxic chemicals.) In addition, Saddam has openly threatened to use these substances on population centers in Israel, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, ‘et al’. In terms of casualties, we are minimally talking of hundreds of thousands into the millions. If such substances as Small Pox, Plague, Hemorrhagic Fevers among other Biological materials hit a populated area, it can additionally spread across the globe in a short time. It was this picture I envisioned when I recommended a stand-off strike with neutron weapons to force Saddam to either stand down his Weapons of Mass Death or have his generals simply assassinate him out of self-preservation of their lives and families. Starting a conventional war with numerous air-strikes would only allow him time to give the orders to fire his mix of WMD, Weapons of Mass Destruction. There is no reason to give him this opportunity to unleash death on such a massive scale that even countries far away would experience outbreaks of Plague or other incurable diseases. I realize that Liberals who cannot imagine the elimination of whole civilizations, will bleat, mewl and howl at the deaths of so many innocent Iraqis. Regrettably, in my estimation, there is simply no choice. It is either him or us. To allow Saddam to grow more tonnage of VX or Botulinum Toxins or to acquire Nuclear weapons (possibly from North Korea or Pakistan when, not if either of those governments are taken over by radical Islamists) - any or all of this cannot be tolerated. There is no wiggle room, except in the minds of foolish diplomatic bureaucrats who babble nonsense even as Armageddon rolls over them. Should we be interested in the opinions of simplistic pastors, liberal marchers and the Peace Now crowds - all of whom have become unwitting pallbearers for the burial of western civilization. After the 10 day notice and the subsequent obliteration of part of Bagdad, another notice would be given with a 12 hour deadline or all of Iraq, along with Saddam’s Mass Death weaponry would be reduced to ashes. Shortly after that demonstration, a similar notice would be issued to Iran, Syria and North Korea. The civilized world can no longer tolerate rogue nations ruled by dictators or religiously-driven would-be conquerors to co-exist on this planet with the supposedly sane rest of us. Nor can our cities be held hostage to sleeper agents who have been given materials that can decimate one of our cities. What I am proposing is pre-emption in its most deadly form. If we do not wish to see those we love struck down by the substances we in the so-called civilized world, developed and allowed to be transferred to primitive nations, we must stop them immediately. We made the mistake of being their suppliers and now we must cure the mistake. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Chemical Weapons Programs in FAS: Weapons of Mass Destruction 2. "UNSCOM & IRAQI CHEMICAL WEAPONS" http://www.fas.org/nuke/guid/iraq/cw/unscom.htm |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
[ February 28, 2003, 18:53: Message edited by: Askan Nightbringer ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Andres, I ask that you take all I say in the spirit of friendship. It is how I offer it. If I offend you, it is unintentional and I hope knowing that keeps you from being offended. Also note that when I say 'you' I often mean the people of your country. Don't take it personally.
Quote:
At least that is how it looks from here. The end result is that many of the agricultural producers are planning on sitting on their crop rather than selling it because it will not lose value like the currency will if inflation continues. The unwillingness to sell creates a bigger problem because now your country has a trade deficit and cannot come up with enough foreign currency to pay the IMF. Quote:
This is where things get fuzzy. I believe that ultimately a trade surplus is good and a trade deficit will *always* lead to this problem if allowed to go on. Some economists will disagree with me, but I will stand by that opinion. The problem is you have to count interest payments to the IMF as part of the equation. Quote:
The problem is to assign the blame. Everyone involved (The IMF, your government, and the people who voted them into office) shares some of the blame. The IMF will say, "You asked for the money and we were kind enought to loan it to you." Your government will say, "We needed to have the money to bring our economy up to world standards." Your populous seems to be saying, "We expected someone else to tell us this would be bad for us." To the part about 'imperialist companies', I have only this to say: I don't think anyone figuratively held a gun to you heads and said buy this or we will punish you. It is true that the industrialized world wants a larger market for its goods. It is true that the IMF loans money to allow those markets to grow. Someone must show restraint and not borrow more than can be paid back. Unfortunately governments are notorious for letting the next poor sap who gets elected hold the bag. In my opinion, this is why there is a problem. Quote:
Yes, there are situations like this that can be just as unethical as slavery. If we were selling you life's necessities at too large a price and a high rate of interest, this would be evil. But was it life's necessities that the money was borrowed for? We face exactly these problems in the United States. For example, a landowning farmer borrows money to raise his standard of living. This is a perpetual thing because he is living beyond his means. Each year, the bank is happy to lend him more and more money because (a) he asks for it and (b) he has enough colatteral in the value of his owned land to cover the debt. He does not realize there is a problem because there is always money in the bank account. Then the bad things start to happen. The economy goes soft, land values go down substantially, and prices for the produce are depressed. The farmer has a very unprofitable year. It is then time to renew the loan. The farmer's equity is not enough to cover any more debt, he is unable to pay all of his payments because of the poor crop year, and he has not enough cash to put in a crop without a loan. Now he is bankrupt. He will cry and moan about how the bank did him dirty, but who is to blame? Is it possible that your government has been selling your future to make themselves look good for the next election? Who is really to fault. I know you are having problems and I know they are troublesome and I hope that they can be resolved. But unless the real reasons for the problems become obvious, they will only repeat themselves. If you can find a copy, you should read "The Creature From Jekyll Island" It deals with world monetary policy and how it came about. You might find that all of us are 'slaves' to a very few. In fact, many individuals in this country are in the same boat as your government. If the world economy continues to soften, you will see evidence of it here as well. Peace [ March 01, 2003, 01:58: Message edited by: SamuraiProgrammer ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Thought I'd share this. It doesn't reflect anyone's point of view (at least that I know of), but might be good for a chuckle or two. Or maybe just for getting everyone united to come lynch me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Quote:
|
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I like that, very funny. The UN is on the verge of becoming a debating society, so perhaps we could see something like this.
Seriously, the war has already started. America has air superiority in the south and north, and is in the process of making it uncontested. Baghdad is pulling its front line troops into two very compact kill zones. Well they call them defensive perimeters. The US could occupy the southern part of the country now, and the northern part within a few weeks. This would probably lead to the discovery of the WMD’s that no one can find. They would be turned over as they were in mid flight. But then the world would be forced to join in a chorus of “Evil Iraq”, and the US would follow its doctrine and respond with a WMD of its own. After the war, you would be able to buy a little piece of glass for a buck. The inscription would read “A souvenir from Saddam’s home town” |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2001 - carrier construction confirmed 2003 - contracts awarded to UK and French companies Looks like the Royal Navy is going to buy American aircraft As for the French, we get the feeling they'd fully support NATO if they were the chief member. In Britain, France has very poor PR - it always looks as if the EU is intended to benefit France at the expense of others (not that there isn't some truth in that). In particular, the plans for an EU Defence Force have brought criticism that France essentially wants an alternative to NATO - one they can have a great deal more influence over. I guess some of you will have received the email that lists all of France's not so glorius military reverses. Of course, not liking the French is virtually a national sport in Britain... I'd love to know how many people chose to bLast the Eiffel Tower (ahead of Big Ben, the Brandenburg Gate and the White House) first at the end of the NOD campaign in the first Command & Conquer game. I know I did http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
Peace in Middle-Earth in Our Time Quote:
|
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
lol That's great! My favorite line is "Elrond is a Balrog"--sounds like my car's getting a new bumper sticker. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
|
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
Edit: is it just me, or do mimes all look like they've just made a prison break? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I've just signed an international treaty banning the production and use of mimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<hr>Joke amnesty. Hand over your mime-field jokes here! |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4616550,00.html
hmmm.... The N.A. Media does not seem to be picking this story up ... |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I recently read an article that stated that spying in the UN is common. The article stated that everyone does it and it is almost expected. So that the US is spying is no big suprise.
The author did state that the biggest issue of concern is how this story is pissing off traditional US allies. He stated that this is a sign of how incredibly poor US-International relations are when such a minor thing incites naked outrage in Australia (for example). |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
There is probably a good reason that the wire services aren’t running it. Confirmation would be the one that comes to mind. I would have serious doubts that a message of this sort came from within the NSA in a form that could be opened and read by just anyone. I would also be surprised to learn that the NSA was not already listening to every electronic transmission that is directed to or originates from the UN. Cell phones are easy, as is IP data. Encryption is probably just a nuisance for them.
All of this is a mute point anyway. 700 air strikes yesterday and an undisclosed increase today. If 700 aircraft drop bombs on and fire rockets into your country, I think it is safe to say that you are at war. Also, if you can’t manage to shoot any down in that target rich environment, then you had better put your bomb proof undies on. You are about to have some real bad days. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Try the Last paragraph of this article, but you are correct in that there has been no confirmation.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2079570/ Here is an opinion piece about current US diplomacy. http://slate.msn.com/id/2079678/ I found this one to be interesting, though it is on a very liberal news site. This is a resignation letter from the US Ambassador in Athens to Secretary Powell. Again, no confirmation of the source. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html Here is the original article to which I refered. You'll have to register to read the entire article. I found it to be an interesting opinion. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
Its just another argument for the reasons of moving the UN out of New York and into somewhere more neutral and insignificant, one of the "non-aligned" block countries. Quote:
Askan |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I personally knew that War with Iraq was on the very near horizon after 9-11. With the continual failure of the US to track down Osama Bin Laden and display him like a war trophy, War with Iraq and the goal of displaying Saddam Hussien would be become the next best option. This isn’t just a cynical view, but a reality of the American psyche. The great need to go looking for blame everywhere other than in oneself. You ask the average American why 9-11 happened and you’ll get the boiler plate response: “It’s because they hate our freedom and wealth, and because they are crazies and fanatics.” It’s never because,…oh “our government is doing stuff around the world to piss people off and some are going to react with overzealous fervor”
Let’s look at the entire picture of what got us here to this crossroads of war and peace. American backed Saddam’s rise to power to counter the situation arising in Iran. The fundamentalists were gaining too much steam and America, along with all the gulf states and many European allies wanted to prevent a rising tide of Islam governments in region with the world most important resource. They also didn’t want the movement to unite against Israel and force a confrontation which would require direct American and European support. So, Saddam came to power, and we supported his firming of his power to eventually confront the Iranian Revolution. Iraq, until the gulf war, was the most liberal and westernized middle-eastern state, with a very solid middle class. So, the Iran-Iraq war didn’t go so hot, and they eventually saw the futility of a war over a worthless swath of land, and then brokered a peace deal. Well, that’s all good and well, but Iraq had fought a very costly war and had nothing to show for it and a huge debt load. These same gulf countries had all cheered Iraq’s move against Iran, but now looked the other way when the credit man came a knocking! Little Kuwait had been a HUGE countributor to Iraq, but had also loan some money, and Saddam didn’t wanna pay, plus…and this is where it gets good…Georgie Bush, part one, was really chummy with the Monarchy. Kuwait keeps doing it’s own thing outta OPEC’s limits to hook-up Georgie in providing Ma and Pa Clayton with cheap gas. So, Saddam loses his mind and attacks Kuwait, We panic and rally the world to kick him out. Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Saddam is crazy in the least bit, he simply over-estimated his military’s capabilities to resist us and We under-estimated our capabilities, so he decided to stay and fight, and we obliged to kick his @$$. We also did him a very nice favor by killing off the dead-weight of the bulky army from the Iran-iraq war, which he could just send home. We eliminated tons of worthless and antiqued war pieces, but somehow, the Republican Guards division when nearly unscathed in the bombing. There are tons of reports about the now degraded capabilities of the Iraqi military machine, eventhough he’s been selling billions of oil illegally and spending that money somewhere?!?!? Now the other little piece of the puzzle is AmeriKKKA’s most wanted in the form of Osama. Now this guy is a piece of worth, as we help created this wonderful tool to keep the Soviets off their guard in the Stan’s…you know Afhganistan, Pakistan, Ubeikistan…Jollystan, Mollystan,…Pollystan. Then after the war was over in Afghanistan, we discarded them provided an ample breeding ground and source by occupying the Persian Gulf…to protect those poor Arabs from Evil Saddam. Bombing Iraq every week and watching our penis get larger and full ourselves. BANG! 9-11, and the perennial $hit hit$ the fan again when the second piece of the puzzle smokes us and our penis starts to droop! Secretly, we know the world is laughing at us, the mighty us..eerrrrr US. So we go over and kick the living crap outta some Afghans, but ooohhh my Osama and Mullah Omar break camp and most of theirs boys run undercover to plot the next attack. Well, the American public is a fickle lot and with zero progress in getting Al Queda stomped…we turn to Iraq. Number 2 please, number 2 is next in line please. BUT we are now in a massive oooh ****! The rest of the world is sick of our ****, and are now simply pimping us to get their cooperation. Turkey flat out refused unless the money was right…even after the massive hoopla with the French and Germans. Now that’s a laugh. I won’t even go into the laughable comments about how the French owes us big time from WWII…hmmm I guess we figured that we had already paid them for basically footing the bill for our War of Independence (for some anyway!!!) and for little things like the symbol of freedom worldwide in the little old harbor in NYC called….THE STATUE OF LIBERTY!!!!!!!!!!!!! I could go on and on about how silly the case is against Iraq, and support how it’s all about Oil, but I’ve got better things to do. Most American’s are simply too ignorant for me to argue intelligently about world issues, and they are all so proud of their ignorance. Well, go into Iraq without the UN’s permission (an illegal act) and kick out Saddam (probably won’t get him) and we’ll set up a puppet government to let us get a great oil deal and to also provide even more worldwide support for Al Qeada from borderline Moslems. The government will be paper thin of course and we’ll have to remain there for about 45 years, as we are in South Korea. I love America, but I’m not too blind to see the truth…this war is nothing more than a thin veil for an Oil grab for a Oil-hungry administration. It’s got little to do with human rights or WMD (what a catchy phrase.) All these simpletons trying to compare the current situation to Germany in 1930 are spewing form fitting rhetoric. They here it on some ignorance news show like Bill O’reilly and do a little research to get do a few facts from the internet, and then post it to display there great knowledge of “cut-n-paste.” America is sliding down that slippery slope of overbearing imperialist. Just remember all those poor Africans the Europeans were saving when they enslaved them, or the similar pattern displayed by Rome in her declining years when she would launch massive military campaigns to spread the glory of the Roman Empire…hence Gladiator the movie. This was is going to come back to haunt in our lifetimes…just wait and see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif I'm cool as a fan...with my gat in hand! |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
What you just did, is also another that makes America Great…. You stated your opinion with out FEAR of physical retribution or death. Actually, I wonder more how some of the middle east leaders; worries and prepare in regards to the natural sale and depletion there oil reserves. Quote:
Actually this is staring to sound like Anti American Propaganda. I have been seeing more and more (allmost Exact words) of this all over the net, in the Last few days?!?!?! By the way, off topic, how do you like SE4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Edit: Amonra, from NY [ March 07, 2003, 13:51: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Does any one have a source to Quote Kuwaiti oil sales and who the purchasers where in the Last 10 years?
EDIT: Kuwaiti exports to US (updated 2000): only 14% of Kuwaiti total exports. This includes Kuwaiti oil, refining and fertilizer products. I know we liberated that Country too, and we did not set up Jeb Bush as its Leader…. I believe, but not actually being there, that the Kuwaiti people are Jubilant towards us and view us as a faithful ally and not there new ruling despot? I may be wrong tough, not actually being there to see for my self. This is a complicated issue for sure, I do not believe we are after (your/There) oil; but I do believe the American citizens will not tolerate the pillaging of a another nations resource of any kind by a victor or not… Actually late world history has proven that Americans want to give and rebuild after a war, (even if it is not clear wether we won or was even in that past event or not. We helped the best we could). I do know one thing, terrorism has been around for centuries, one of the best ways is to stop it, in my mind, is to stop the funding and transfer of arms. Appeasement or quick fixes has not worked in our history, Europe, Africa, South America, Israel, have had terrorism and death for most of Last century…. 9-11 has brought this to home, and yes I want my country to do something about it, quick, decisive and as merciful as possible. I do agree with appeasement as anyone would with a child… Some national leaders make threats at me and my family; threats that have substance, threats that would destroy my family as with the families in 9-11, I prey my Country protects us from these threats; as I would, with a Brigand in my home with a knife to my Daughters throat. [ March 07, 2003, 19:09: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
As to the OT-on topic topic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, with a prior military background, who has acutally been stationed in the Persian Gulf...acutally set foot down there and not just read about it. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
I think George W is a dick. Does that make me anti-american? I hate that my government supports the US without question. Does that make me anti-american? I hate the the so called opposition parties support the US without question. Does that make me anti-american? I think the coming Iraq war is based on a load of toss. Does that make me anti-american? I don't like the US system of extreme Capitalism for the poor coupled with Corporate Socialism. Does that make me anti-american? How do I become not anti-american? Do I have to kiss the US flag before I go to bed? Do I have to pay to watch America take a dump? Do I have to grovel before the absolute greatness of the Stars and Stripes? What the hell does Anti-American mean? Quote:
Askan Anti-American because he thinks that Sex in the City is not the defintive authority on life in the 2000s. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
OT a litte.. Just some email I recieved about the French situation.
"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French, people." --Conan O'Brien "I don't know why people are surprised that France won't help us get Saddam out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of France!" ---Jay Leno "The Last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into Paris under a German flag." --David Letterman "The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee." --- Regis Philbin While speaking to the Hoover Institution today, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was asked this question: "Could you tell us why to date at least the Administration doesn't favor direct talks with the North Korean government? After all, we're talking with the French." The Secretary smiled and replied: "I'm not going there!" "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." --- General George S. Patton "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." --Norman Schwartzkopf "As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure" ---Jacques Chirac, President of France "As far as France is concerned, you're right." ---Rush Limbaugh, An old saying: Raise your right hand if you like the French.... Raise both hands if you are French. Next time there's a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France. "You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it." ---John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona "France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by prostitutes." ---Mark Twain "I just love the French. They taste like chicken!" ---- Hannibal Lecter "We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it." ---- Marge Simpson ------------------------- Just kidding |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Don’t get me wrong Australia and this is not a good reason for you to join a US or any coalition. We can go this Iraq thing alone, if necessary.
If you were to poll the majority of Australians back in 1942 if they wanted the Americans to be at war as there ally even though we may have the US system Attributes that you say, what would do you think the vast majority of Australians would vote? What if President Roosevelt and the American People did not react with war after we were attacked by Japan our Carrier Group would have never been in the Coral sea where Hundreds of American lives were lost preventing the Japanese Capture of Port Moresby. There by helping to secure the safety of Australian Families from Japanese planes that would of been in range on your home land, if they succeeded… ~~~ With allot of us Americans it may just come down to just this, safety for our families. ~~~ Yes, Askan Nightbringer, sadly I have seen a lot of Anti-American Propaganda on the Net Recently . EDIT: Actually by Omitting the word “ Propaganda ” from the sentence, Askan Nightbringer you were able to imply I called Amonra anti-American; when in fact, I did not. Hence: half truths, disinformation (This is Propaganda) and thank you for the illustration http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ “God of kings – King of gods" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thesaurus (ENGLISH) propaganda (n) misinformation , party line, disinformation , half truths , cant, indoctrination, load of toss publicity, advertising, marketing, literature, information, hoopla, puffery, hype, buildup, Bumf [ March 07, 2003, 18:59: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
MR. JLS.
Back in 1942 Australians were at war. Sept 1939 ! Please do not compare the American gov'ts current polices with Iraq with WW2. They are not the same. Our Friend in Australia is questioning these policies that the current American Gov't is persuing. Do you agree 100 % with these policies. Say 10% of the Population of Iraq is 'Evil-doers' and the rest is not. Say America attacks and 200,000 are murdered, is that worth it. Do you think that the lofty goals that the American Gov't has stated for Iraq will be met or do you think it will be just like Vietnam. On the subject of Oil sales... Control of those fields controls Europe and Central Asia. That is important. 1990 was the right thing to do. They should have finished the job then. M. Thatcher stated it was the worst mistake of her political career not ending that war and letting the Iraq army slaughter all opposition to the Iraq Gov't You keep tossing 9-11 in there. None of the terrorists were from Iraq. None of the A-Q they have captured or are after are from Iraq. There is no proof that Iraq was involved with those actions. Why isn't your country questioning the relationship between the current crop of people in charge and the A-Q. A quote from you Some national leaders make threats at me and my family; threats that have substance, threats that would destroy my family as with the families in 9-11, I prey my Country protects us from these threats; as I would, with a Brigand in my home with a knife to my Daughters throat. Is not your Govn't and Britains Govn't doing the same thing? I believe it is to be American to question. My intent here is not to slander you. Your opinions are valid, as is Askan's. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
|
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
MR. JLS.
Quote:
"Back in 1942 Australians were at war. Sept 1939 !" ... And??? (This makes little sence) Please re-read my Post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Actually I think its Iraqi leaders decision whether he wants war, Full Compliance with UN, or Abdication. Quote:
How is that you can compare the American gov'ts current polices with Iraq with Vietnam war? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately Iraq, would not comply with UN doctrines. Quote:
----- A quote from you EDIT: "9-11 has brought this to home, and yes I want my country to do something about it, quick, decisive and as merciful as possible. I do agree with appeasement as anyone would with a child…" Continued Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And none considered, thank you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ March 07, 2003, 22:59: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
|
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
|
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
It will not be murder, it will be war. If they fight, then they die by the thousands. If they surrender, they will be well treated, this they already know from past experience. I would suspect that a conscript Iraqi solder is better off as a POW, they have few rights in their Army.
Lets face it guys, if the US decides to finish this, we will do it regardless of what Europe says. And irregardless of what we decide to do, they have lost their Middle Eastern cash cow. No more markets for manufactured goods (and we are not talking about TV’s and fridges) and no more lucrative oil exploration/delivery contracts. And after this all settles down, they can continue to flap their jaws about the embargo violations that they have been profiting from. You can bet that this is the high water mark for them, when Saddam is gone, several countries will have a lot of explaining to do. Many Posts ago, someone entered the forum with a post containing a revised history of American involvement in the region. Let correct a few things. After the Last big war, the area was in the British area of influence and they adjusted the borders as was their right. Nations/States that supported the Nazi’s were not treated as well as allies were. And Israel was created in an area that fully supported Germany. So the US had very little to do with how the region is laid out today. America supported Israel and Iran during the 50’s 60’s 70’s, and this was originally to counter Soviet influence and have a presence in the region. In the 70’s, the political situation in Iran caused us to look for new allies in the region. When war broke out between Iraq and Iran, it was in America’s best interest to see Iran get a bloody nose, and it was in the best interest of Israel to see Iraq preoccupied with the Iranians. Se we began to support Iraq. It should be noted that Iraq fought the war with its Soviet supplied weapons with a few high tech French pieces tossed in for good measure, as they controlled it all from their German built facilities. At no time did we have what would be called good relations with Iraq. And we have never been more that a minor arms source for them. The Soviets, French and Germans take care of Iraq’s weapons needs. IMHO, it is good that America will go it almost alone this time. We will finish it once and for all, and we will not have to worry about the interests of a bunch of allies that actually contribute almost nothing to the war. And when this war is over, we can help pay the bill by closing down our operations across Europe. With all of the talk coming from the UN, I think the French and Germans can take care of Europe. Well at least until they decide to take care of each other, again! Perhaps England and the US will be smart enough to sit that one out. [ March 08, 2003, 01:43: Message edited by: Thermodyne ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
As to the OT-on topic topic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, with a prior military background, who has acutally been stationed in the Persian Gulf...acutally set foot down there and not just read about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Amonra, I want to thank you for getting me excited and acting on my Impulse to post in this thread, it really did feel good saying what I wanted to say… I also want to thank you for serving in the (US?) military, I realize this can be a thank less duty. With this said, I hope you all well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ “God of kings – King of gods" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ March 08, 2003, 03:27: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
I will dust off my grandfathers rifle and keep it by my bedside to defend against the infidel. I will not be a victim. I will give the old pistol to my 13 year old son to hide in his clothes and kill the invader, I will not be a victim. I will support my husband in resistence and sabbatoge of the invader. I will not be a victim. My family are all americans we have not had to live with fear of invasion, however I can assure you none of us will ever be 'murder' victims of a declared war against our country. We will fight to defend our home and beliefs. How could I think any Iraqi family would be any different? They have lived with fear of invasion from many different countries for decades. How could they believe those soldiers are living in residential areas just for a change of scenery? If there are families unwilling to fight for Iraq, why do they not move to an area where there will not be soldiers? Or protest the quartering of them in residential communities? Because the government does not allow it? Hmmmm "Give me liberty or give me death", Patrick Henry---"Live free or Die", New Hampshire state motot. There are many willing to die for freedom. I would not be a victim. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I would rather not die.
Freedom or death is easy to say. I don't know what choice I'd make but propably I'd rather tolerate living in a dictatorship than be dead. I'm fortunate to live in a democratic country and be able to defend that freedom with arms if so be, many in this world aren't that lucky. In a country that is heavily controlled rioting on your own is sure death. Just joking about Saddam might get you 10 years of prison. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Quote:
* Translate to person in today's overly-politcal correct world- in English, man is often used as a generic term that is independant of gender, but there are people that do not realize this. [ March 08, 2003, 20:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Benjamin Franklin:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Ruatha: "Words are cheap, also easy when one doesn't have to prove them by action."
|
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:29 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.