Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Thanks for your post Aloofi. Its very interesting to hear an Isreali point of view on this issue.

I must disagree with your statement that "if the Palestenians stopped fighting their would be peace". If the Palestenians stopped fighting their would be no Palestein (in that sense there would be peace, but that's not what you meant). The Economist published a map of the Isreali settlements in the occupied territories about a year ago. Its very hard, looking at that map, to reach any other conlusion than that Isreal has adopted the strategy of placing settlements to make it a fait accompli that the occupied territories are Isreali and belong to Isreal. If the Palestenians do nothing then they will loose their homeland to the steady march of time and an expanding Isreal. Madeline Albright has suggested in a speech that both sides know that the Isrealis must give up the settlements and the Palestenians must give up the right of return. Both sides seem to want more people to die before they reach that conclusion. I agree with you that if the Palesteniens adopted non-violent methods ala Ghandi that their case would be a thousand times stronger and they would probably have achieved much of their goals. That seems to me to be the best path for them. I have no idea what Isreal should do as I also agree that giving concessions has not worked in the past. We need genius level diplomats that can find a way for both sides to back down without loss of face (i.e. to back down while simultaneously showing strength). Sadly, diplomacy seems to be a lost art these days...

Teal

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Aloofi

what is your connection with israel ??

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe he has said that he served in the IDF. If he has not said directly that he was a resident and citizen it would still be a pretty safe assumption.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I agree with you Aloofi. It is hard to see a positive resolution. How do you negotiate with someone that thinks dieing for a cause is the fast track to Allah http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

You were right on about how they view us (weak or strong). I wish the U.S. would have backed the rebels against Saddam in the first gulf war. We let millions of Arabs down and it will take much longer to bring them back around. That is one thing many western pacifists just don't get. What we did against Saddam may not be popular, but I think it will be effective down the road, I mean the surrounding Countries that support terrorism have to think now "are we next", and if they dont want to be next, they better crack down on the 1% of wackos.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was born in Israel, 1979/5739, in a Sephardic family like 40% of Israel, went to school, served in the IDF, married an American-Jewish girl, moved to the US, where I make twice the money than in Israel doing the same job, we go to college at night, we will graduate in 2 years, then back to Eretz Yisrael, we'll probably buy a house in Haifa, where my family lives, but lately I've been thinking of Elat, in the south.
.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Allofi, this is a story I've been meaning to tell you for a long time. When my wife was a kid (sometime in the early 70's), her parents went to visit another young couple that lived in the same building and took her along. This other couple had no kids, they were very nice people, everyone knew they were foreigners but no one knew exactly where they were from.

Anyway, at some point my wife repeated something she had heard an adult say (you know how kids are like) about this being a terrible country to live in. The foreign couple was shocked by this and they told her "Don't ever say that. This is a wonderful country. We should know, we're Jews." My wife asked them, "What's a Jew ?" And they told her parents, "This is why we love your country. Where we come from, a child her age would already have been taught to hate Jews."

Too bad she never found out where they were from, but from your post I think we can guess.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I don't have the time now to get into an in-deep discussion, but here's what I see.

1- If the Palestinians stop fighting there would be peace, and they would get all that they want, because even under fire there is a very strong peace movement in Israel. If they had chosen Ghandi's path the peaceniks would have the mayority of Israel behind them. Israel is a Democracy, you know, and Democracies have a hard time not doing what their people wants.
Now, where's the Palestinian peace movement? I don't see an equivalent to Gush Shalom on the other side of the green line.

2- The economist? Please.
I bet they didn't mention that in 1948 Jordan occupied the West Bank and built twice as many settlements as Israel have built till this day, and Jordan brought in Arabs from everywhere in the Arab world to settle. Many Palestinians are either Arab foreigners are sons of foreigners, and the UN gave the status of refugees to people that have lived in the area less than 2 years in some cases! I thought a refugee is somebody uprooted from his native land, didn't you?
I'm also sure that they didn't mention the 850 000 Sefaradi Jews expelled from Arabs countries, including Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza, who's properties were confiscated. But Israel asimilated them, while the Arabs didn't asimilate the 420 000 Arabs that left Israel by orders of their own leaders. Did they mention the Jews of Gaza?
One other question, why are still "refugee camps" in the territory controled by the Palestinian Authority?

3- Lose their homeland? When the Brittish took 75% of the Palestinian Mandate, ordered by the League of Nations to be the Jewish Home, and created the Kingdom of Jordan, they created the Palestinian homeland. Very smart of them to not call it Kingdom of Palestine, so they can claim the other side of the Jordan river also.

4- Madelaine Allbright is not all bright, or maybe she is, depending of what she really wants.
So, we give a real tangible thing, we give land, and they give a promise? A promise that they can break after they get the land? With the Palestinian record of keeping promises?
You gotta be kidding.

.
Oh well, that was my rant. Not that it matters, since there is nothing that can be done.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...965319,00.html

WMD have been found !!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Aloofi...

I could not remember if you were an immigrant to North America like me or you were currently living across the pond and down the straight away.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

HEY!!! thats NOT funny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

well it is, until you think about it, I mean how the hell do you forget something like that? scary

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was a nice story. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Yeah, I complain a lot about Bush and the American corporations and Hollywood, but America is a great country indeed, especialy for the poor. It's not perfect, and it certainly can be better, but its people is definitively not the bad people that the anti-american propaganda paint.
.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Man, these discussions about Israel makes me look like a frigging fundamentalist. I guess the self-defense mechanism kicks in.
.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

OK, here's my thoughts on WMDs and Iraq : It is clear to me that Bush expected to find WMDs after Saddam was overthrown. The very fact that none have been found are a proof of this. Why ? Because if he had known that Iraq had no WMDs (or had already destroyed them), he would have prepared some for the US military to 'find' after the war. The fact that this possibility was never covered suggests everyone on his team was certain that they would find those WMDs.

Therefore (if you're still with me), we can assume that when Bush said that Saddam had WMDs, he believed it himself.

Now it becomes tricky. Did Saddam destroy all of his WMDs before the invasion, knowing it would drive Bush crazy ? Or did he destroy them before the inspections because he didn't want to run the risk of being found out ? Did he even have WMDs ? Your guess is as good as mine.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

[quote]Originally posted by Aloofi:

Quote:

I complain a lot about Bush and the American corporations and Hollywood, but America is a great country indeed, especialy for the poor. It's not perfect, and it certainly can be better, but its people is definitively not the bad people that the anti-american propaganda paint.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, this story happened here in Brazil (I should have made that clear), but it could also have happened in the US, or just somewhere in the New World.

Now for a question - how did Israel win the 1948 war with all of the odds against them ? Can you point me to any good historical articles ?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Bush Quotes:

"Do you have blacks too?" - Bush ignorantly asked Brazil's President Fernando Henrique Cardoso. Reported by the reputable German publication Der Spiegel. Rumor has it, Condoleza Rice interupted the president and explained in brief the African history in Brazil.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"{waves hello}"- G.W. Bush waves to the blind musician, Stevie Wonder, as reported by the Washington Post, March 6th, 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods." -George W Bush
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee --that says, fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. Fool me ... You can't get fooled again." - G.W. Bush quoted by the Baltimore Sun - Oct 6, 2000

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Are these quotes real?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , I should have read your location.

The Independence War was our worst. We lost 1% of our population at the time.
Here's a link: http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00us0

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">At times like these, I really, really wish I had someone else for which to vote. No matter how much I might be able to admire the man for other qualities, the inability to consistantly express himself in a professional manner is quite disturbing.

I continue to hold a grudge against Gore for the Clipper Chip (in fact I registered as a Democrat so I could vote agaisnt him twice), and I dislike his populist ways, and I cannot see the value in voting for a sure-to-lose third-party-type, no matter how much I admine their work or their policies. (Though I guess I would have voted Perot, if I had been older and if he hadn't looked like such a nut there at the end.)

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, self-fulfilling prophesy... If both the main choices are crap, why shouldn't you vote for someone else?

You really need to get your country out of that "two party system" mindset.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

If it is a sure-to-lose it's because people think like that.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Yeah, we've been stuck with just two main parties for centuries - as far as I know we have *never* had an elected government that wasn't either labour (left) or tory (right).

But I think this time it might change. We had more than a decade of tory rule in which they proved themselves again and again to be greasy, corrupt, inept hypocrites. So we voted Blair in who has dominated his party and the country's political scene so completely that half the population don't even know the name of the leader of the opposition. Blair revolutionised British politics and pushed it into the 21st century, just as the tories were dragging their party kicking and screaming out of the 19th. The opposition are laughably outdated, mistrusted, disorganised and utterly unelectable.

But now Blair's position is starting to look shaky. The war hasn't done anything to improve his popularity, and he had certain weaknesses anyway. For one thing he has drifted so far right that he might as well *be* the conservative party. All the socialists, communists and various other left-of-centre ists think he has sold out completely. For another, he and his party have had been exposed in sleazy, corrupt scandals (conflict of interests, backhanders etc) just like the tories- one of their main selling points when they were elected was that they weren't as sleazy.

With this loss in confidence in the two major parties, I think Britain is heading for a >2 party system. All the minority parties (greens, nazis, single issue parties, votes-for-chickens parties, save-our-local-pub parties, independent candidates) are doing better and better with every local election and I think the liberals (our third "central" party, now finding itself further left than the right-drifting new-labour "socialists") might even get into downing street one of these days.

And that will be a good thing. It will shake up British politics enormously, and probably herald a more european-style multi-party system (which may not be such a good thing). Hoefully though, the liberals will be so new to government that for a while they'll actually think they're there to represent and work for the electorate rather than line their own pockets with our money. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know the feeling. When I read some of my comments about the US, I sound like I believe that the government is perfect and I love every aspect of it. In reality, I complain all the time about dumb things going on in this country. It's just that statements made against the US government are so overblown or just downright false that I take a hard-line stance in defense of the US.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I fear that you may be right in this. This is a conflict that is rooted in the history of both Arab and Israeli, all the way back to Isaac and Ishmael. I find it hugely frustrating that every time a movement towards peace begins, the Palestinians pick up their bombing campaign. Clearly, their leadership does not want peace. Then, Israel responds to the attacks, sometimes even-handedly, sometimes in (in my mind) understandable overreaction, and Israel gets blamed for being too violent. I just don't get it.

On a side note, I found this link and thought it was funny that, as much as you don't like Bush and think he is taking a pro-Arab stance, this author doesn't like Bush and thinks he is taking a pro-Israeli stance. (Note that I do NOT agree with what he says, I just find it amusing that both sides feel that Bush is on the other side.)

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That link is full of crap. We don't get 5 billion a year, but only 1.2, which is still a lot, but is less than the 2 billions Egypt gets. Of course, proportionaly we get more because Israel have 5.8 million population and Egypt have about 100 millions or so.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is pure Palestinian propaganda. You probably remember when they claim 5000 masacred in Jenin, and they consider part of their war to desacredit Israel with any lies that they can get away with, and justify that saying that Israel have tanks and planes and they don't. Basicly, I don't believe one single word that comes from the Palestinians. For them lying is a weapon.
Check out this link: Mohammed al-Dura

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Jewish Defense League's party in Israel was declared illegal by the Israeli goverment, and their HQ in the US were taken over by the FBI.
Still, this guy story looks to me like inventing something using an already bad name, so everybody will believe it, but since this guy have already said several lies, and hidden several truths, I don't belive this story, though it could have happened, I'm not gonna tell you is impossible that it happened. Using the the JDL to show how bad Israel is, its like using the KKK to show how bad the US is.

.

[ May 29, 2003, 14:08: Message edited by: Aloofi ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gore never claimed to have invented the internet. I can't find the article which went case by case on all of Gore's so called lies from the Love Canal one to the Love Story one and showed conclusively that he was misquoted and taken out of context in every single one. Exactly what you claim to be against in your post. Let's keep the hypocrosy down to a dull roar shall we... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gore never claimed to have invented the internet. I can't find the article which went case by case on all of Gore's so called lies from the Love Canal one to the Love Story one and showed conclusively that he was misquoted and taken out of context in every single one. Exactly what you claim to be against in your post. Let's keep the hypocrosy down to a dull roar shall we... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was my point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Gore never claimed to have invented the internet. I can't find the article which went case by case on all of Gore's so called lies from the Love Canal one to the Love Story one and showed conclusively that he was misquoted and taken out of context in every single one. Exactly what you claim to be against in your post. Let's keep the hypocrosy down to a dull roar shall we... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was my point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My apologies then... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

If you can find that article, or other similar sources, I'd love to read them. My beef with Gore has little to do with his verbal blunders.

[edited to remove moot point]

[ May 29, 2003, 15:39: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't remember where it was. Salon, The New Republic, *maybe* The Nation although then I would have probably been predisposed against it more... (all these are somewhat left leaning publications to varying degrees (possible exception of The New Republic in recent years), but then you would hardly expect a right wing publication to publish a defense of Gore...).

I tried doing a Google search, but that was a nightmare!

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Just to remind anyone who hasn't looked at it in a while or who has never seen it: The blog from Baghdad. It's been infrequent lately, but really interesting.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

What Gore said: (click the quote to read the entire interview with Blitzer)
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I really enjoy it. The most interesting thing to me is the understandable dichotomy in what he says between his frustration in the way things are/aren't being done by the Americans and the fact that Saddam's regime is gone.

I liked one quote of his:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That puts a spin on things that is sometimes easy to forget. All of the people involved are just that, people. People who are going through a broad range of emotions. Iraqi civilians who are happy that Saddam is gone, but want their old lives back. American soldiers who are glad that they succeeded in their mission, but who really want to go home, tired of being away from friends and family for so long. Lots of other people with different agendas all trying to put their mark on the future, for good or ill, or just trying to survive. It is going to be a long time before we really begin to understand the ramifications of what has happened over the Last few months.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I like this one. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's a fresh perspective.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, heh. That's sort of what's happening in Brazil right now.

I have some advice for the Americans here (take it from someone who has already been there) : if you must choose between two candidates and you hate both of them, you must still choose one. You should choose between a terrible candidate and a worse one, in the hope that next time around you can choose between a terrible candidate and one who is merely bad, and so on until somewhere down the road there will be someone you can vote for and not feel ashamed.

Aloofi : I don't recall Bush's comment on blacks. I do remember Reagan's comment, as soon as he got off the plane that brought him to Brazil : "It's nice to be here in Bolivia." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

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Suicide Junkie said:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hehe, you mean that maybe they should switch over to a "one party system" like we have here in Canada? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I've ceased referencing our political system as a democracy, more of a dictocracy in my opinion (that is to say, we elect our absolut dictator every 4 years).

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is very easy to take an out of context quote and make anyone sound stupid. At least Bush doesn't claim to have created the Internet.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The whole paragraph is...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So its clear from context (i.e. the next senctence where he continues to use the word initiative but now you can see that he means initiative in the sense of introducing legislation) that he means that he took the initiave in introducing *legislation* and *funding* for helping to build (i.e. another sense of the word *create*) the internet and did not claim to have invented the internet single handedly which is what the quote taken out of context implies. Admittedly I do not know if he did introduce such legislation and/or take an important roll in moving it forward, but I am willing to bet that he did.

Thanks for including the reference to the whole quote. Its quite easy to discuss these things that way. The "story" of the 2000 elections was that Gore was a liar and a bore and Bush was stupid. Niether are true. I actually think that Gore being a bore cost him more votes than the liar thing and anyone can tell you that stupidity is not a factor in American politics so I don't think that cost Bush any votes at all.

Cheers!

Teal

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

You have the party line down pretty straight as well Teal. It's just as obvious you do like Gore and so don't hesitate to excuse or attempt to explain away his inconsistancies. Personally I don't care enough about him to continue this topic. I was merely trying to provide some facts to the discussion since very few on either side of the issue when it came up every even heard or read what he actually said. They were merely parroting one or the other camps spin, as you have pretty faithfully done here.

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I didn't vote in 2000, but if I had, my vote would have been for Al Gore.
I don't think Al Gore would have given that priority to the interests of the Oil Oligarchy in his agenda.......
And I would have done ANYTHING to have Dick Cheney out of the WhiteHouse.

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Although I do need to say one thing about your analogy. I am someone who has been more than a little responsible for encouraging the popularity of Space Empires IV, the "Space Empires Phenomenon" as you so eloquenly put it, through my work with PBW. I believe I have a right to feel some pride in my accomplishments. However if I were to sit down with a reporter and state unequivically "During my service with PBW, I took the initiative in creating Space Empires." people would have every right to take me to task for it.

Geoschmo

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Point of fact I don't like Gore much at all (think he is much preferable to Bush yes, like him no). I am just willing to provide him the benefit of the doubt just as I am willing to provide Bush the benefit of the doubt when his numerous so called verbal gaffes get circled around the office. In those cases I am much less willing to do hard work to try and defend him true, but there are others who will do that. I content myself with not joining on the bandwagon.

Calling my point of view "the party line" I find somewhat offensive. It should be everyone's "party line" that until given overwhelming evidence to the contrary (of the "I hold in my hand the names of X communists at the state department" or "I have not had sexual relations with that woman" variety) that a willfull deception has indeed occured it is always the default position that someone was being smeared for political gain by their enemies. To rephrase that somewhat awkward sentence: the burden of proof that a politician is lying lays squarely at the feet of the accuser and it should be a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of proof otherwise one should believe the person being accused. The case against Gore wouldn't even be admitted to court, much less achieve the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. To be fair the case that Bush is stupid is equally dumb.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's why I phrased it carefully to be the Space Empires phenomena obviously only Aaron can claim to have created Space Empires itself. And I would not take you to task for that statement, but rather say that you deserved to utter it for your hard work.

I agree that this discussion has probably gone far enough. I like my default position that politicians are mostly truthful until shown beyond a reasonable doubt that they are not. You are of course welcome to believe whatever you want about certain politicians.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was my point though. You are making a distinction there that Gore did not. He didn't claim to have encourage the growth of the Internet, a claim by many accounts he had the right to make. He didn't claim to have taken the initiative in creating the Internet "Phenomenon", a claim which would probably be a bit excessively boastful but perhaps a case could be made to support it. He stated he had a hand in the creation of the internet. That's why I maintain it must be defined as a fairly serious mistatement of fact, whether intentional or not, rather then mere braggadocio.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was my point though. You are making a distinction there that Gore did not. He didn't claim to have encourage the growth of the Internet, a claim by many accounts he had the right to make. He didn't claim to have taken the initiative in creating the Internet "Phenomenon", a claim which would probably be a bit excessively boastful but perhaps a case could be made to support it. He stated he had a hand in the creation of the internet. That's why I maintain it must be defined as a fairly serious mistatement of fact, whether intentional or not, rather then mere braggadocio.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh come on. Only in certain republican dominated alternate realities does the term internet mean only strictly the physical connection of one computer to another in a network. I would be willing to bet that the word is probably more often used to represent the entire phenomena of web surfing, e-mail, Online shopping, data transfer and organization by companies, on time inventory control, etc. It is clearly in that sense that Gore meant the word and only if you were out to hang him and not to give him the reasonable benefit of the doubt would you define the internet in your fashion. Once again the burden of proof is in your court. You must *prove* that Gore was a liar, not wave some words around and make it look like maybe, if cats were only the kind of animals that people have in their houses and not also creatures that live in the wild and behave quite differently from the domestic variety, then the statement was factually incorrect. Language is horribly imprecise, there are many different definitions for each word. Default position for any sentence is that you take the definitions and meanings that make the sentence make sense, not deliberately choose those meanings which make the sentence look bad. Misquoting and misrepresentation are the true evil culprits here. They should be hanged equally when applied to Gore as when applied to Bush.

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He chose the words he did precisely for the reason that they have a particular meaning to the majority of the people that heard them. You can't now after the fact try to defend him by saying they don't really mean what all those people thought they meant.

How can we possibly ever hold any politician to anything he says if they are free to redefine the terms in any way they see fit?

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Ok, in a change of topic, lest go to Afghanistan.
What's going on over there?
There are rumors that the local governors sent to Kabul only 50 million pounds out of the 300 they collected Last year, and that Kharzai may retire due to health problems, and that feudalism has increased, not decreased, and that.......

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Must resist urge to continue silly debate, must resist, will to resits failing, urrrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh

1) At least 50% of the voting public didn't seem to have any problems with it the way you do (hardly a "majority of those who heard it interpreted it in the bad way"). Ok maybe they all didn't hear the interview and the subsequent republican attack machine (although how they could miss it is beyond me), that's still sufficient evidence that you have failed to show your case beyond a reasonable doubt. Plenty of reasonable people disagree.

2) In no way did I say that politicians should not be held acountable. Just that you should tend to believe them rather than not. And while we're on the subject isn't it better to hold them acountable for their policies and ideas rather than whether they occasionally have problems with the English language? i.e. Isn't the never ending spinning and misrepresentation and doing your damnest to hang the other guy rather than give him the benefit of the doubt the true bad thing here?

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

Yup Afghanistan great topic great. Love to talk about Afghanistan... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I'm not trying to hang Gore over his choice of words. For me his policies were why I didn't vote for him, not because of a few mistatements of fact that he made. But the discussion seemed to be over whether or not he actually made a mistatement. You are not the first person I have had this discussion with. And Gore appologists consistantly refuse to admit their guy screwed up. What's wrong with admitting someone made a mistake? I am not even insisting it was an intentional lie. For someone of Gore's political training to make such an obvious lie is pretty unbelievable. So I have always just been under the assumption that it was simply a gaffe. But it ammuses me that I have never heard a single Gore supporter own up to it rather then trying to spin it.

Geoschmo

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There's a very interesting documentary on UK tv tomorrow I'm hoping to catch, called "Afghanistan: Here's one we invaded earlier." The trailers mention the heroin industry (on the way back up apparently) and the fact that the regional warlords appear to be taking control. I have little else to contribute to the discussion right now, maybe after the weekend=-)

As for the "creating the internet." I wouldn't necessarily call it a lie becasue it is so blatantly untrue and such an incredibly stupid thing to say. The word "create" means "to make something that didn't exist before". There is no other officially recognised meaning, and I find it hard to believe anyone is even trying to argue otherwise.

If he actually did mean to say that he contributed to the growth of the internet, then he is simply inarticulate.

And no, I'm not banging any particular "party line". As I've stated before I have only a very limited interest in and knowledge of US politics.

Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
 

I just noticed where you guys are from.... Now that's interesting...

So I'd guess neither Teal nor Dogscoff would know exactly what I meant if I said that Gore is a Yankee, no?

I am curious because I wonder just how much of U.S. culture you have absorbed/are familiar with/know about/can express.

[ May 30, 2003, 15:33: Message edited by: Loser ]