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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Ok. The question.
1)Did Gore make a mistatement? The rules of the game. 2) Gore shall be considered to not have made a mistatement unless shown to have made a mistatement *beyond a reasonable doubt*. i.e. He is innocent until proven guilty. The verdict. 3) Geoschmo and the entire republican attack machine have failed to show number 2 because reasonable people can read Gore's entire interview and not think that he made a mistatement (myself included and many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many other people). Any questions? I presumb that you disagree with part number 3 of the argument that you have shown it beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't see how you can consistently maintain that point of view in that given similar situations with the tables reversed you would surely believe that someone was being smeared rather than that they made a mistatement. I believe this about Bush, I don't see why you have such a problem believing this about Gore. And what do we mean about mistatement anyways? If you are merely implying that the statement is badly worded in the sense that it can be easily misinterpreted then I certainly agree. Gore is guilty as charged, he failed to act like a perfect mathmatically correct robot in every conceivable situation including an interview where he was answering with spoken language and not even in complete sentences always. If on the other hand you imply that the sentence was intended to convey the idea that Gore did physically make the internet then I certainly disagree. That was not Gore's intention and as reasonable people we should give him the benefit of the doubt and try to see things from his point of view rather than attacking him for something that he is not really responsible for. Lastly about the word create. Say that your company has a web page that is very basic and just lists your company address and phone number and maybe a picture of your building. Then say you are assigned to upgrade your company web page along with a team of other people and you work hard on this project all day and at the end you put up a new company web page, using much of the code of the original web page I might ad, that is much improved with pictures of your co-workers and stuff. Then when you get home and your wife asks you, "what did you do today." It would be perfectly natural to answer, "I *created* a web page". QED. If you can't see the difference between this Version of the word create and the Version championed by a literal reading of the dictionary (making something that did not exist before because technically there *was* a web page there before) then I can't help you. [Edited to remove a logical hole that others could distort for their purposes]. [ May 30, 2003, 16:02: Message edited by: teal ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I'm not really from Germany. I'm just here for a few months. I grew up in Idaho (probably why I slanted liberal, if you had to grow up in a one party communist state then you would probably reject the ruling party as well... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Let's get our own facts straight before we accuse people of lying, ok?
Al Gore did not claim to have invented the Internet. Fact. Quote:
What is it about human conversations that they can never stay on a focus? We've got the SE V thread yammering about lawsuits and a stupid legal system while this thread has drifted from Iraq to US world relations and internal politics to... wait for it... the originality of the SE series and comparisons to Al Gore's 'creativity' or lack thereof over something he didn't say. Hmm. [ May 30, 2003, 15:43: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Baron, your post was kind of ironic. You end it by complaining about the thread not staying on focus, but the first half of it was rehashing points of the debate that have been throughly covered in the Last couple days. You didn't add anything new to the conversation at all.
As far as the SEV thread being off on a tangent, I can't argue with you there but this thread long ago left the narrow bonds of it's original purpose. It has been used for nummerous and diverse discussions, all loosely related to a political theme. So this discussion is quite appropriate for this venue. Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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He took the initiative in creating the internet. That is a far cry from being just ... involved ... in legislation ... that made it easier ... for companies to sell stuff ... on the internet. While you could technically say he helped create the internet as it is today, that is kind of sad. You could also say that poor, globally hated butterfly technically helped create the horrible hurricane that devastated the coast a while ago. (Take your pick from the many storms and coasts) ***** During my years as a modder I took the initiative in creating Space Empires IV. ***** |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Actually, Geo, what I posted has not been covered previously. That's why I posted it. As with almost every other discussion of Gore's supposed claim his actual words were NOT part of the discussion! I posted those words so people could know what they were talking about.
I agree it's a confused mess, but it's not the claim that the media has told and told and told everyone that it is. The power of repetition is real, though. It's been proven in psychological studies. The more you repeat something at someone the more likely they are to believe it. That's why advertising works. [ May 30, 2003, 16:36: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Has anyone noticed how you throw cheese out when it gets mouldy? I mean cheese is just mould anyway, isn't it, so isn't mouldy cheese just mouldy mould? You wouldn't refuse to drink wet water, so why do we throw out mouldy cheese? (Actually, I usually just cut the mouldy bits off and eat the rest=-) |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
ohh, nothing like a good chuckle when I first get up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif now I need to get my coffee
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
BM: (gritts teeth) I'm afraid that I must agree with Geo here... I posted the paragraph that Gore said a while ago, you added the question and a further paragraph, but that wasn't strictly necessary for anyone who wanted to wade back through too many Posts of Geo and I sniping at each other... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
You however did support my claim that reasonable people can read Gore's words and not come to the conclusion that he made a misstatement and for that I thank you immensely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Reasonable people can also read it and arrive at the conclusion that he did make a misstatement. However, (and this is the super big gigantic key point which Geo has failed to address in any of his Posts) the default position is that someone is innocent until proven guilty. i.e. In a messy and muddled situation Gore should be given the benefit of the doubt and be considered to have told the truth not the other way around. If we were to believe that the accused were always guilty before being proven guilty or that all that was necessary to prove someone guilty was to find a couple of reasonable people who thought them guilty then that would be a messed up world indeed. Edit: Oh yeah I totally agree with BM about the Space Empires V thread being totally off topic and regret my small roll in that derailment... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif This thread however is clearly the general off topic political heated discussions and don't really feel like we are wandering off topic here. Hopefully just having a good old fashioned disagreement which I hope everyone is enjoying... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ May 30, 2003, 16:54: Message edited by: teal ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Mould is a fungus that feeds off the cheese, often making it taste better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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I can easily believe that it was not intentional, and there were no serious consequences of it. The public ridicule was also surely worse than he deserved. However, his statement is still absurd, and we enjoy a good laugh at the situation. --- Also, note that while what he said is definitely not true, that does not nessesarily make it a lie. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Exactly SJ. And that is exactly what I said, but I still have yet to find very many people who will admit to that which is patetnly obvious. Instead they insist on claiming his words were misquoted or taken out of context, or try to redefine the words he used to make them fit some set of facts that may be accurate. When all that fails they try to change the subject to Bush, or Afganistan, or moldy cheeze. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
BM, you obviously just didn't read any of our Posts prior to your post or you could not have come to the conclusions you did. I posted the link to the same interview, and I made the point that Gore was most assuradly not lying, but had merely mistated the facts before you did. My only reason for continuing the debate is I am still waiting to hear Teal admit that that is the case rather then twist the facts or change the subject. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I wasn't trying to change the subject. My only off subject post was the one about Afghanistan complete with many smiles to indicate that I was worried perhaps that others were getting tired of this discussion. Others have been trying to change the subject, perhaps because they are getting tired of this... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
You have failed to address my point that people are innocent until proven guilty. People with a different mindset will read that quote differently and not find anything strange about it at all (me and BM). You and SJ read the quote differently. Fine. We still come back to the point that people are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden of proof is on YOU. I have great difficutly proving a truthhood because its very hard to do in any slightly muddled situation. I would have great difficulty proving that I had yogurt for breakfast this morning if you chose to be contrarian about the issue... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That's why people are innocent until *proven* guilty. The benefit of the doubt rests with the defense *not* the prosecution. You have failed to make your case so that *any* reasonable person would agree with you. Largely because the issue is muddled and reasonable people *will* disagree. This proves my point as I represent the defense in this situation. Once again the ball is in your court or do you have some problem with people being innocent until proven guilty? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Oh yeah. And what exactly are we disagreeing about here? What do you mean by "misstatement" anyways? I'll agree that the statement was rather unfortunate and could easily be taken out of context (surely a "misstatement" in that point of view). But will not agree that the statement represents either a lie or a verbal gaffe but rather is something that any reasonable person could say.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
When I say he made a mistatement I do not mean he made a statement that was technically true but was worded poorly so that taken out of context could appear to mean something it did not. This appears to me to be your and BM's impression of the comment in question. That's what I would call a poor choice of words. A comment that is technically correct but constucted in such a way as to be possibly unclear in it's meaning.
By mistatement I mean that the comment was factually incorrect as he stated it in the context that he meant it. I disagree that it could reasonably be taken any other way. I suppose this means I am saying you and BM are being unreasonable on this point, but I don't have a problem with that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif However a mistatement does not have to be an intentional comment contrary to the facts. That would be what I would define as a lie. Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Fine. If you do not share my belief that I am a reasonable human being then there is little that I can do to convince you otherwise. I'm sorry that you can't see what probably a good 15-20% of America would agree with (the percentage of people who voted for Gore minus a few who would agree with you, but still voted for Gore). I think that's your problem. I try often and hard to understand those who support Bush and the right wing to the point of often playing devils advocate for his policies at debating sessions. I do not find that point of view unreasonable, just wrong... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I do feel truly sad that the other side does not feel fit to extend the same courtesy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Over and Out Teal Edit: and by your definition I would classify Gore's comment as a "poor choice of words." [ May 30, 2003, 19:09: Message edited by: teal ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I have come to believe that the "TRUTH" is all in the beholder (or point of view or bias). We all see the same thing, but come to different conclusion. Glass half full/empty kind of thing.
My view of that comment from Gore is that he was a politician and he tried to get brownie points by stretching the truth and got caught. But it all comes down to what you think he was getting at, was he smoozing or was he just having a bad day? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Has anyone noticed how you throw cheese out when it gets mouldy? I mean cheese is just mould anyway, isn't it, so isn't mouldy cheese just mouldy mould? You wouldn't refuse to drink wet water, so why do we throw out mouldy cheese? (Actually, I usually just cut the mouldy bits off and eat the rest=-)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, why don't sheep shrink when it rains? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Teal. I didn't say you were an unreasonable human being. I just think you are being unreasonable on this point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif That was a poor choice of words on my part. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I would guess the great majority of the people on both sides haven't actually heard what he said to begin with. They are told he said he invented the internet, and so they think he is a liar. Or they are told people say that he said he invented the internet but he didn't really say that, so they believe it's all part of the vast right-wing conspiracy. It just suprises me that otherwise reasonable logical people such as yourself can see what he said and some how come up with a scenario where it is a factual statement if taken in the correct context. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Geoschmo Geoschmo [ May 30, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Yawn, Zzzzzzzzzz
Edit: Oups, Geo snuck in a funny post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ May 30, 2003, 19:26: Message edited by: primitive ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The fact of the matter is that Gore specifically said that he created the internet. He did not say that he took part in shaping it through legislation, he said that he created it. I can spell it out from the text if you really want me to. This is probabably not what he meant to say, but it is indeed what he said. This is what makes it a "mistatement" or a "verbal gaffe". You are only showing hypocrisy when you consistently deny this. Noone has to prove that he did not create the internet (in any form, the physical connection or the web, surfing, email, IM, etc.), because everyone knows that is not true (even you have stated as much). He had absolutely no part in the creation of any of it. Perhaps in the popularization of it (I am not sure on this point), but that certainly does not allow him to say that he created it by any logical standard. Geo or SJ can not logically say that they created SE4, after all. So, a reasonable line of reasoning would lead a person to the conclusion that Gore either messed up (accidental lie) or he deliberately set out to deceive. Everyone that has been posting here that has not unreasonably denied logic has said that it was most likely an accidental lie, not a deliberate one.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Gore is old news. I don't know what he meant by the internet statement although it was a good way, during the campaign, to divert from all of W's gaffes.
Anyway now even Wolfowitz a Senior Administration official is admitting that "For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on." I'd rather argue about what that means and conveniently is more relevant to this topic. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
You guys still discussing Al gore??!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I went out for lunch, the lunch got overextended with a couple beers and political conversation, and I got back and you still discussing the same?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The humorous part of this whole discussion is that it started with my point that it is easy to take someone out of context and make them look stupid. Apparently, politicians deserve the benefit of the doubt unless they are Republicans.
I had never read Gore's comments about the Internet, and I assumed they were taken wildly out of context. It turns out they were more ridiculous in context than I had believed. Certainly, however one takes the comments, they were more indicative of poor judgment than: Quote:
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
By honest accounts what Gore did during his time in Congress was help to spur the growth of the internet by encouraging government agencies that he was involved in create and maitain a presence on the world wide web. But the fact is he had absolutly no part in creating the internet as he was still attending Yale university at the time it was created. So no matter how you massage the words he said or the context he said them in it was one of two things. A lie, or a significant verbal gaffe. It can't be neither, no matter how much Gore supporters would like it to be neither.
Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Your welcome to try again with another one of Gore's so called lies. I think we have exhausted the internet one clearly in Gore's favor. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I did some informal surveying to make sure I wasn't completely crazy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Turns out I'm not. If you think I am either crazy or just crazy on this point then you can ask yourself long and hard why do you think both me and BM posted the entire paragraph of the interview and then said, "see, its perfectly obvious there was no misstatement here." Either we were so completely wacko as to actually hand the other side complete text that they could use to hang us with a great big glowing sign or else we were completely reasonable human being approaching the quote from a different point of view and reached a reasonable conclusion which we are then somewhat flabbergasted to learn that other reasonable people disagree with us about...
My favorite answer is from my survey is, "Gore was trying to say as little as possible". Now *that* is something we can agree on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Cheers! Teal |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Point of view has little to do with what the statements Gore made mean. It is irrelevant what he meant to say, all that matters for purposes of this argument is what he said. And what he said indicates that he had a large hand in the creation of the internet (take the internet to mean whatever the heck you want, it doesn't matter). Which of course he did not. In all probability it was a mistatement (an error), but of course Gore can never make errors. Its always taken out of context. This is the picture you are painting by essentially ignoring the only reasonable meaning of his statement and creating new meanings that show that Gore did not make a verbal gaffe.
[ May 31, 2003, 11:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Geoschmo |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
That is a nice rant Teal, but no. I did not say that point of view never has anything to do with interpreting language. I said in this case it does not. Gore directly stated he created the internet (take the internet to mean whatever you want it to). That does not mean several different things, it means that he created the internet. He had no part in creating the internet, so his statement is wrong. Some legislation, sure. But not any part of the internet itself.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
"Create" was the wrong word for Gore to use.
Gore was a facilitator and a sponsor. The cealing if the Sisten Chapel was commissioned, sponsered, and even initiated by the clergy. The actual art was created by the artist. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Yes, create was the wrong word to use. Teal just will not admit that Gore made a mistake in his speech.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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And I agree with Wardad that a beter word could have been used. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
It was a rant because it was long, and completely filled with statements that he had already made that had had counters posted against them. And, it was going off on tangents, which makes it more of a rant. Rants are not required to be illogical or anything like that. Most of them aren't.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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The New Webster's Collegiate Dictionary describes a rant as: 1. to talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner 2. to scold vehemently: to utter in a bombastic declamatory fashion He did none of these. The fact that you think he repeated himself or that you think it was long, or that you think it was off tangent or that you may think it is illogical has little or no bearing on whether it is a rant or not. He was stating his opinion in a very calm and collected manner which is the very opposite of the rant you accuse him of. Right or wrong, he is entitled to his opinion and shouldn't be put down for it. It is immorally wrong to characterize what he has said as a rant. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Al Gore and the Internet (Sept. 28, 2000)
By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development. No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among people in government and the university community. But as the two people who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore's contributions as a Congressman, Senator and as Vice President. No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time. Last year the Vice President made a straightforward statement on his role. He said: "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet." We don't think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he "invented" the Internet. Moreover, there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore's initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving Internet. The fact of the matter is that Gore was talking about and promoting the Internet long before most people were listening. We feel it is timely to offer our perspective. As far back as the 1970s Congressman Gore promoted the idea of high speed telecommunications as an engine for both economic growth and the improvement of our educational system. He was the first elected official to grasp the potential of computer communications to have a broader impact than just improving the conduct of science and scholarship. Though easily forgotten, now, at the time this was an unproven and controversial concept. Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as we know it today, was not deployed until 1983. When the Internet was still in the early stages of its deployment, Congressman Gore provided intellectual leadership by helping create the vision of the potential benefits of high speed computing and communication. As an example, he sponsored hearings on how advanced technologies might be put to use in areas like coordinating the response of government agencies to natural disasters and other crises. As a Senator in the 1980s Gore urged government agencies to consolidate what at the time were several dozen different and unconnected networks into an "Interagency Network." Working in a bi-partisan manner with officials in Ronald Reagan and George Bush's administrations, Gore secured the passage of the High Performance Computing and Communications Act in 1991. This "Gore Act" supported the National Research and Education Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science. As Vice President Gore promoted building the Internet both up and out, as well as releasing the Internet from the control of the government agencies that spawned it. He served as the major administration proponent for continued investment in advanced computing and networking and private sector initiatives such as Net Day. He was and is a strong proponent of extending access to the network to schools and libraries. Today, approximately 95% of our nation's schools are on the Internet. Gore provided much-needed political support for the speedy privatization of the Internet when the time arrived for it to become a commercially-driven operation. There are many factors that have contributed to the Internet's rapid growth since the later 1980s, not the least of which has been political support for its privatization and continued support for research in advanced networking technology. No one in public life has been more intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet than the Vice President. Gore has been a clear champion of this effort, both in the councils of government and with the public at large. The Vice President deserves credit for his early recognition of high speed computing and communication and for his long-term and consistent articulation of the potential value of the Internet to American citizens and industry and, indeed, to the rest of the world. --- Vin Cerf is one of the people who really can claim to have invented the Internet, btw. And he understood what Gore meant. Some of the specific legislation that Al Gore supported: 1986 - National Science Foundation Authorization Act 1986 - Supercomputer Network Study Act 1988 - National High-Performance Computer Technology Act 1991 - High Performance Computing Act And he was Chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on Science, Technology, and Space for several years before he joined Clinton to run for VP. |
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What Geo and I are arguing about is actually a very very subtle difference in opinion. Alien beings watching this, and probably several forum lurkers are probably scratching their heads and going... WTF? those two don't actually disagree about anything at all... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That's why I asked him to define his terms a while back. The term verbal gaffe in the context of this argument means a *serious* verbal misstatement not its more general meaning of simply a statement that can be interpreted wrongly out of context. I maintain that Gore's statment is on the order of magnitude of AK's example of Bush waving to Stevie Wonder (in one point of view that's dumb bc/ SW is blind, from another point of view that's perfectly reasonable because the other people watching are not blind and like for certain social norms to be observed even when they are somewhat silly in that particular context i.e. *nothing* about Bush's action was the slightest bit weird or wrong). Given these two points of view I'm sure reasonable people will choose both, since the issue is muddied we give Bush the benefit of the doubt and move on. That's the level of verbal gaffe that I would classify Gore's statement as, there isn't anything at all wrong about it (ala Bush's waving to SW) but people predisposed to a certain mindset can certainly interpret it that way. Geo seems to be mainting something far more serious, that Gore's statement was factually incorrect and that *NO* reasonable case can possibly be presented otherwise. I find this point of view perplexing. Lastly you guys can try to hang me with the rabid Gore fanboy label who thinks Gore can do no wrong all you want. It won't stick. The guy did some incredibly dumb things during the course of the campaign. Serious strategic errors and the like and probably even made many verbal gaffes (of the garden variety not the *serious* variety). I'm no Gore fanboy and I maintain that this particular statement is not a *serious* verbal gaffe but merely a "poor choice of words" as defined earlier by Geo. Cheers! Teal |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Tbontob, a rant in the forum sense of the word is exactly what Teal's post was. There are many words that have more meanings than a dictionary has in them, especially when it comes to popular culture (such as the internet). Rant is one such word, which can mean a lot more than your basic dictionary definition.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Ok to restate my point of view (and I am restating because there seems to be some misconception about what I said, apparently my post was too long to read... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Most of the people jumping in and taking me to task are taking me to task for the wrong reason. They say that create was, strictly speaking, the wrong word to use in this context. They are correct. As I have stated before my interpretation of this comment is that it is on the same level as Bush's waving at Stevie Wonder. That is that some people, if predisposed to do so, can reasonably slam the actor and say that they acted like an idiot. But I also maintain that reasonable people can see *nothing* wrong with what the actor did and not see any reason to slam them at all. So please, before you see fit to think me an idiot for thinking that the word create can not mean "to bring something into existence which did not exist before" realize that is not my position. I maintain that create can mean that *and* it can also mean "to improve or make better something which did exist before". Strictly speaking this is gramatically incorrect, but I have strong problems with "grammer Nazi's" and you should to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It is still natural language and people can and do use the word this way. I have already posted one example which was not refuted and here's another: If someone goes out and looks at their backyard treehous and thinks (boy that could use a new wing and a kitchenette) and then goes and adds a new wing and a kitchenette then they could using natural language say that they created a treehouse. They would be gramatically incorrect in doing so, but we should not pretend that we did not know what they meant and that they were an idiot for saying so. Teal, who knows he should not write anything longer than a paragraph on a forum, but does so anyways because he can't help but think in paragraphs... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Tbontob, a rant in the forum sense of the word is exactly what Teal's post was. There are many words that have more meanings than a dictionary has in them, especially when it comes to popular culture (such as the internet). Rant is one such word, which can mean a lot more than your basic dictionary definition.[/quote] No Fyron, the internet is not a popular culture. The people on the internet have many diverse interests, hobbies, philosophies and concerns. More importantly, their home language may not be English and as a consequence they may not be very familiar with English. Maybe, rant has a secondary meaning in California. Or maybe you have just made up that meaning to suit your own purposes. These meanings are not likely to be known to those who whose first language is not English. And to use it in such a manner is very disrespectful. |
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
New definition for Websters New Collegiate Dictionary. Fyronic n (2003): beyond ironic. ROFLOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
Tbontob, I made up nothing about the word rant. It is a very commonly used term on internet forums, known by many people who are not from California and who do not speak English as a native tongue. Just because you do not know what it means does not mean that noone else does. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Well, I don't wanna be on Fyron's side here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , but I have seen the word rant used Online to describe anything that its said twice.
Very fyronic indeed.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I'm with Fyron there too. Unlike a lot of internet language, such as 'flame' or 'troll' for example, the intended meaning can be derived from its dictionary definition; the sense is not quite as strong though.
In general, 'internet language' is considered acceptable in forums, whether the poster is from California or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . And although a lot of the original terminology might have been consistent with Californian English for historical reasons, I think that recently a lot of 'European texting conventions' have made their way onto the general internet. PITA for anyone under 20 though.. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
...but actually looking back at the original Posts (damn this thread is long!), I don't think what was said qualified as a 'rant' in either the dictionary or 'internet' senses...
A long argument making many points is just that, surely? Even if you disagree with it - to use the term 'rant' is perjorative, in either sense. For what it's worth, my personal take on 'netiquette' would be: - avoid use of colloquial English. This does not mean using a restricted vocabulary. If I use an uncommon but correct term, it can be looked up in the dictionary, whereas colloquial/slang terms usually can not. - only correct grammatical mistakes when the poster has previously criticised someone elses - then they are a fair target http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif - if replying to someone who does not have English as a first language, only correct them if their meaning is unclear or if they specifically ask. To do otherwise is plain rude, given that their English is usually far better than my command of their language. - definitely avoid pointless US-versus-British English flame wars. Two valid derivatives of Elizabethan English I say... but doubtless confusing for the non-native speaker. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I said it was a rant because it was essentially a rehashing of what he said before, and it was an attempt to overwhelm my point with potentially (though not necessarily) true statements that did not actually contradict the point.
[ June 02, 2003, 19:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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