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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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To my opinion, "The Failuremongers" article is not only offensive but of low quality. Some would call it propaganda. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
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[ September 14, 2003, 18:34: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Sorry AK, I do not wish to hackle you, but there is just no limit to how much The Failuremongers article p.. me off.
The reasons most Europeans (don't know about Americans, so I won't comment on them) took to the streets in opposition to the war was not because we are some blue-eyed peacenics, or that we had great love for Saddam, or that we hate America. It was because we belived this war to be a mistake that would make the world a worse and more dangerous place. And I for one still believe this and that the aftermath of this (unnecessary) war will fuel religious/racial hatred and terrorism for decades. I would like nothing better than to be proven wrong. To see new democracies blossom all over the Middle East, to see security and welfare brought to the people of Iraq and the neighboring countries. Only time will tell if this will happen, or if terrorism will rise again, if USA (or FN) will be bogged down in an occupation for decades, or if Iraq will be lost to religious fanatics. But if the worst happens, and my darkest predictions are proven right, I will certainly not gloat (Schadenfreude) over it. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
There are still a few sane people left in the US after all. Protestors at Boston University play the Imperial March as Ashcroft arrives for another 'Patriot Act' rally!!!
http://www.dailytrojan.com/article.d...9-ash.12c.html I should point out that this 'public campaign' to build support for the Patriot Act is not at all public. These events are closed to the public. Only invited guests (vetted right-wingers like police officers) are allowed to attend in order to prevent just these sort of protests which are occurring at Ashcroft's arrival. It sure would have been funny to see Ashcroft step out of his Limo to the strains of the Darth Vader theme... |
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I found it interesting how much the media is involved in saying how we are failing in Iraq and that things are falling apart. It is similar to the TET offensive in the veitnam war it was a stragic victory for the communist because the american media portrayed it as a big defeat for South Vietnam. Yet in reality it was a descisive victory on the ground. Last night I watch an HBO movie about Pancho Via. I was shaking my head over the way the media used and abused the truth for their own ends. And it is still going on today. I for one do not trust the media even when I agree with them. I don't think we are winning in Iraq neither do I think we are losing. I don't think George Bush did the wrong thing but I know that all orginazations make decisions based on incomplete information. I am afraid that's just the way it is. The best we can do is hope for the best and plan for the worst.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Interesting. For the Last many months I have had to either ignore threads like this, or be subjected to a continuous stream of attacks against this country, its President, and anyone who dared to support either. The President has been called everything from evil to an idiot, and on more than one occasion, people have expressed that they wished someone would kill him. When I get really frustrated, and object, even in a sarcastic way, to some of this material, I am told that I am out of line, because I am not approaching this garbage as if this were a serious debate.
So I decided to conduct a little experiment. I did a Google search to find some biased material from the other side and posted links to it, just to see what would happen. Lo and behold, the material is highly offensive, calls people names and is just sick. People are p*ssed of at it. Welcome to my world. And I only posted two articles. Try a steady diet for months, it gets really old after a while. |
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The economy was beginning to tank in 98, we all know this, so no one can blame it happening on Bush. Then came 9/11 and that to was not Bushes fault. Then the wars. Well these are nessassary evils. Better to fight them now, even without a plan, then encure the cost of another 9/11 and an even more expensive war years down the road. Things will get better, people will go back to work, and the economy will improve. It takes time, inovation, planning, and many years of growth. All of the things that Bush is doing now will benifit him in the later parts of his second term if re-elected, or the first term of a new president. I thank God every day that I am an american, our freedom to voice our opinions does not come at the expense of our lives like it did, and currently does for billions around the worlds. (China) I watched the other day on the news when that lady heckelled Donald Rumsfeld and thought to my self, gee lady you are really lucky to be here in America because in most middle eastern countries you as a women would not even be allowed to speak, and if you did, you would be beaten for it. That if you lived just a month like most arabic women, you would be on the front line thanking our government if they came to your rescue and restored your freedoms. I don't care who is in office because you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. Time and history will be the ultimate judge regardless of what we think. [ September 15, 2003, 05:49: Message edited by: Atrocities ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
AK, don't worry. 99.9% of the articles linked to by forum members in these threads are overly biased garbage not worth the cost of electricity powering your moniter to read them.
[ September 15, 2003, 06:48: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
thats a good system fyron. keeps you in the dark http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif and onesided. It is good to read what the world thinks on issues. It is good to read how people disagree with you.
take the time to read as much as possible about the current situation and its history. and if i followed your policy i would never have read rebuilding americans defences |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
But anyway AK, I am ready to accept any political idea you'd like to put on me if you make a baseship for the rage.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Tesco, that is only if you want to learn about all that political garbage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The 'political garbage' may not be nice, but you have to know about it because a whole truckload of it may be heading your way at this very moment...
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
and the military truck loads as well...
I would not classify this link as 'left-wing' or 'right-wing' or 'democrate' or 'republican' or the other political parties / idologies. It is opinions and a good read http://www.d-n-i.net/ |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
BTW, where are all those f..g Sadam' WMD ?
Any ideas except CIA&MI6 been on heavy drugs ??? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Wrong question.
Question should be "if they lied, what was worth the political risk involved ?" Then you'll have to figure your own answer. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Risk ? What Risk ???
We all know it was Muslim/Arabs responsible for 9/11. We must revenge - I'm not American but I DO remember my anger 2y ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif - The right solution would be to seek out true villians and invade SA, but that would be too expensive economically (oil and stuff). Hence, pick up Arab's country with bad publicity, find some sort of excuse and exact the revenge. Never mind real villians - it is all about politics, not truth. Just MHO. |
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1) The WMD components were used, and this did not get noticed at the time by the global community 2) The WMD components were hidden/stored/buried in Iraq, and have not yet been found 3) The WMD components were exported out of Iraq (given away/sold/traded) 4) The WMD components were hidden/stored/buried outside Iraq 5) The WMD components were destroyed, but Saddam, for some unknown reason / unknown insanity, didn't support that fact well. Loose Reasoning: Facts: A) There is evidence (reciepts from US-based companies operating under UN sanction, mostly) that Saddam recieved WMD components. B) The report sent to the UN by Iraq did not account for the current status of some of those WMD components to the public satisfaction of those in power in the US. Assumptions: A: Saddam would want to give evidence that they were destroyed (had they been destroyed) to get the UN off his back. B: Saddam has his regeme keep correct, detailed paperwork when he wants them to do so. C: Those in power in the US are being reasonable when they say the report Iraq sent to the UN did not adequately account for the WMD components destruction. (I haven't read the report, and will not comment on it directly) D: The facts above are valid; a.k.a., the reciepts above were not manufactured and those in power in the US are being essentially honest in that they do not find Iraq's report to the UN satisfactory. At most, the above facts and assumptions imply that one or more of the following is true: 1) The WMD components were used, and this did not get noticed at the time by the global community 2) The components were hidden/stored/buried in Iraq, and have not been found 3) The components were exported out of Iraq (given away/sold/traded) 4) The components were hidden/stored/buried outside Iraq 5) They were destroyed, but Saddam, for some unknown reason / unknown insanity, didn't support that fact well. Using the above facts and assumptions, there is no way to choose which of them is/are correct. A detailed search of Iraq has the potential to shed some light on the probability of those possibilities - 1) a detailed search could potentially find traces of the WMD components having been used 2) a detailed search could potentially find hidden Caches of the components 3,4) a detailed search could potentially find evidence of the components being transported 5) evidence of the destruction of the components could potentially be found in a detailed search. However, it is also concieveable that steps could have been taken to thwart the success of a search, rendering the effort futile. Paperwork could have been destroyed or deliberately not kept in the first place, or transactions could have been buried under a mountain of paperwork via harmless seeming codenames. From what I have seen on the news, the search hasn't found much. Does this mean the components aren't there? No; nor does it mean that they are there, nor does it mean they never were there, nor does it mean many other things, especially because I've also read a news report where a member of a US search team was criticizing the methods he had been ordered to use. Mind you, the news in my area is severly slanted and not too terribly reliable, so that should be taken with a health dose of salt. If my assumptions aren't valid, then neither are most of my possible conclusions. I personally have no method by which to be certain on the subject. I have suspicions, but that is all they are, when it comes down to it. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
I can see your point, AK. I’m glad that you don’t hold these reports to be true to the actual European emotions in this whole matter.
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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1063689015.bmp I'll try to get this put together with the stuff you sent me, and make it official. Hows that for taking OT OT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif |
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A more significant point of contention was whether or not the supposed WMDs were a credible, imminent threat to the United States. I'd say that claiming that they were would be stretching the truth. |
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Can't invade Saudi. Too close to Mecca. Not the ground you want to get blood on. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Great article Tesco. Following its links I came to this other article which pretty much sums up my views on Iraq, the US and the world.
A few excerpts which I would agree with : "Television news may become a more powerful operational weapon than armored divisions." "Ideally, the enemy's military is simply irrelevant to the terrorist." "Terrorists use a free society's freedom and openness, its greatest strengths, against it. They can move freely within our society while actively working to subvert it. They use our democratic rights not only to penetrate but also to defend themselves. If we treat them within our laws, they gain many protections; if we simply shoot them down, the television news can easily make them appear to be the victims. Terrorists can effectively wage their form of warfare while being protected by the society they are attacking. If we are forced to set aside our own system of legal protections to deal with terrorists, the terrorists win another sort of victory." "hostile forces could easily take advantage of a significant product of television reporting — the fact that on television the enemy's casualties can be almost as devastating on the home front as are friendly casualties." This is why I believe that the current methods for fighting terrorism may not work; although I do not claim to have the answers. No one does. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Here are some pictures that someone emailed to my wife. They really touched me, putting a human face on the soldiers that are deployed.
Soldier and Kitten.jpg Prayer Circle.jpg Low Five.jpg Cradling.jpg Letter from Home.jpg This isn't a political statement about whether we should be there or not, nor am I trying to convince anyone of anything. I just wanted to share a little of the human side of the situation. |
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Erax it is a double edged sword.
Take Northern Ireland. Take IRA and Gilbrater Take 4 SAS men. They believed that there was a bomb about to go off so they killed the 4 marks. They basiaclly lost their careers over the issue. The problem with fighting terrorism is that if you want a police action against them which falls within the laws ( due to the fact it is close to home, if it was very far away , say far east, central asia all gloves are off ) use the police. If you want to take the terrorists out. The Groups like the SAS must be free to opperate. The decision makers must be responsible if something goes wrong ( which may be public opinion ), not the soldiers. As there caught in a catch 22. Failure to follow an order can result in Treason charges and jail upwards to death. Follow an order and if it draws public fire. Then the soldier is held accountable not those who set the policy. |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
A interesting interview with Dr. Krugman.
http://www.calpundit.com/archives/002170.html I do not know enough about economics to add to it. But I did read it. And thought it was worth passing on. There is mention of A.Sullivan Does anyone have any good interviews with this gentleman ?? |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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A more significant point of contention was whether or not the supposed WMDs were a credible, imminent threat to the United States. I'd say that claiming that they were would be stretching the truth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The real problem that you are missing is that most of the 'components' of both chemical and biological weapons are useful in countless civilian industries. You have the 'components' of chemical weapons under your kitchen sink and/or in your garage. With the recent advent of bio-engineered organisms as 'pesticides' you might even have bio-weapons in your garage. Who's to say whether a pesticide (chemical or bio) plant is going to be retooled in one day to make 'human' pesticide instead of insect pesticide? This is just the most obvious case. There are scores of other manufacturing processes that use the same toxic chemicals that you would use to make chemical weapons. It takes manufacturing experts a lot of serious study of the equipment to recognize signs that certain manufacturing equipment is setup for 'dual use' and then the UN had to decide whether to further destroy Iraqs civilian economy just to remove one more possibile souce of WMD. So you can see how someone watching this process from the outside and seeing the constant maneuvers to frustrate or outright deceive the inspectors could decide that this government simply can't be trusted. That said, I don't at all agree with the course they took once they decided this. The 9-11 attacks have set off a genuine panic/paranoia in the US government and created something very dangerous. [ September 16, 2003, 17:23: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ] |
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Edit - Tesco, like I said, I don't have the answers and I don't think anyone does right now. [ September 16, 2003, 17:39: Message edited by: Erax ] |
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It's time to shift the argument to -
"Did the administration knowing lie about WDM?" and if so "Is it more of a crime to lie about having sex with an intern than it is to lie about reasons for sending your country to war?" Arguing if they existed is absurd especially in the historical context: *To this day NONE have been found *ALL the scientist who were the supposed weapons makers insist that there was no longer a program *NOT ONE credible weapons making facility has been found. *Not to mention that the Iraqis did not use them even in the dieing throws of the regime All these theories of what happened to the WMD simply stretches the imagination and says more about what people are willing to believe than any reality. Goerge Orwell is probably rolling over in his grave right now. AJT [ September 16, 2003, 19:17: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
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[ September 16, 2003, 20:01: Message edited by: Atrocities ] |
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
AK i do not fully understand that policy as it does not affect myself personally ( live in canada). But would like to learn more about it. Any suggestions?
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Trust me your tax "savings" will be lost when you have to make up for the lost services your no longer getting. A good example is I may save about $1,500 year in taxes but things like wear and tear on my car because the roads are no longer fixed or child care because their is no longer a pre school in my school district will offset this savings. It all "trickles" down. [ September 16, 2003, 21:13: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
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Most of the time when people criticize tax cuts, they use half-truths. They will cite the literal percentages of money going back in the cut and say that most goes to the wealthy (at least, more wealthy than the "poor"). This is of course true, but it is irrelevant. Often times, the percent of tax cut to the wealthy is much lower than that to the middle classes. And the lower classes often pay little to no taxes to begin with, due to low income tax brackets combined with various reductions (children, mortgages, etc.). So, when tax cuts are given, most of the money tends to go to the upper middle class and the upper classes. But, this only makes sense, because most of the money came from them in the first palce, and it is a slanted figure anyways. What is more important than raw cash values is the effective percent that the taxes paid goes down. It is most of the time the lowest for the wealthy. Not all tax cut proposals are the same, of course. But, most follow the same basic plan, as there are only so many ways you can do a tax cut. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
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Trust me your tax "savings" will be lost when you have to make up for the lost services your no longer getting. A good example is I may save about $1,500 year in taxes but things like wear and tear on my car because the roads are no longer fixed or child care because their is no longer a pre school in my school district will offset this savings. It all "trickles" down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tax cuts are nearly always given when there are budget surpluses, so services rarely get cut do to a tax cut... |
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[ September 16, 2003, 21:29: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
Taxes are way too high to begin with... everyone needs a big tax cut.
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Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
AK, that is generally how people criticize tax cuts, with lies. There is of course legitimate criticism out there, but relatively little. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Anyway I don't about you but I probably can't afford to send my kids to private school so on that basis alone I would rather see the $87B + $65B go to education. I hope you are startinng to plan for your retirement because with the deficit the way it is unless you've planned well your screwed. Do you live in a gated community? Police and Fire are going to get cut back so the level of protection your used to will probably go away. Aren't you from Riverside? The air is pretty much toxic there how can you afford to clean it. Didn't you mention in one of your Posts that you like national parks well kiss them good by or get used to paying lots to go there. etc. etc. etc. etc. [ September 16, 2003, 21:40: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
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Why do you assume that I am wealthy? Stop stereotyping people; just because I am of the opinion that the government takes too much money from people and wastes a lot of it does not mean I am wealthy.
[ September 16, 2003, 21:46: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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You can twiddle you statistics however you want, and get whatever results you want, but I know I am better off after the tax cut. Remember, what I am arguing against is the statement that Bush blatantly lied when he said he was cutting taxes for the working class. I have yet to see any proof that I didn't benefit significantly from the tax cut, so I stand by my assertion that the author of that statement has no credibility on this topic. |
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[ September 16, 2003, 22:30: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
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Without taxes and govt we wouldn't have them. They aren't profitable so why would someone develop their land for that? A private entity could probably run my local park better, but what would be their incentive? It's like that with lots of things. Are you against public parks? What about public schools? What about public roads? Police Dept? Fire Dept? It's a slippery slope when you start going down the small govt/no tax route. [ September 16, 2003, 22:45: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
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You mention the basic services that it is the role of government to provide. Those are not at all what I was talking about... Also, I was certainly not on a no tax road...
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[ September 16, 2003, 22:54: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
The defecit is not actually an issue. Most of it is in the form of bonds that can and will be repaid in time. What is more of an issue is yearly spending compared to yearly revenues. The old debts get paid off and replaced by new debts. It is how the economy works.
Some "services" that need to be cut are obselete programs that are no longer necessary. There are numerous programs dating from the Great Depression that only serve to waste money now, but are still in operation, such as the program that was made to try to help farmers hit by the "dust bowl"... [ September 16, 2003, 23:09: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: [OT] Another heated discussion about the Iraq siutation, war and politics.
If the deficit is not an issue then why do we have to cut anything? Why not have a trillion dollar deficit? Who buys these bonds. What happens like in Argentina or Mexico when the interest on the debt (it's already our third biggest expenditure on par with entitlements) is larger than the revenue from taxes.
Besides all those wasteful programs you're talking about are significantly less than the $87B going to Iraq i.e. Not a huge savings if you ask me. [ September 16, 2003, 23:24: Message edited by: rextorres ] |
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