Re: Global War (started!)
 

I'd definitely like to hear your opinion, Foodstamp, seeing as you are the only unbiased person. Everyone else has interest in the outcome.

Zeldor - I'm not turning myself AI, heh. We're asking about Pythium and Arco.

I think everyone can agree that:

1) Good has no chance if Pythium and Arco are turned AI.
2) Good and Evil both have only a very minor chance of winning, because the Neutrals are so powerful.
3) Evil's chance of winning does increase nicely if Pythium and Arco are turned AI, although it is still low.
4) One player shouldn't be playing 2 or 3 factions.
5) Delaying the game until two subs are found would be a long delay, and long avoidable delays are not generally good things.

May I suggest a compromise?

Let's delay the game until a sub is found for Pythium. If Arco refuses to return to the game, then we set him AI. However, all of his gold/gems/magic items are sent to Good first.

If a sub can't be found for Pythium within a week, let me take another of Pythium's turns, and then we wait another week for a sub?

Re: Global War (started!)
 

CUnknown:

Well, only neutrals count now, so turning all good and evil AI would just speed up inevitable. Or we can finish the game as is and start new edition, with better map, rules and player selection.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

THE BURNINATOR DOES NOT CONCEDE THAT THE GAME IS LOST TO HIM. IF GOOD IS FINISHED, ABYSSIA IS EFFECTIVELY THE WEAKEST OF 4 NEUTRALS - BUT AT LEAST IN THE SAME BALLPARK. UNLESS I MISUNDERSTOOD THE RULES THE NEUTRALS MUST FIGHT AMONGST THEMSELVES TO WIN. ABYSSIA IS CERTAINLY THE LEAST ATTRACTIVE TARGET FOR ANY NEUTRALS TO ATTACK AS NOT ONLY ARE THE OTHER NEUTRALS A BIGGER THREAT, BUT ALSO MY DEFEAT MEANS GOOD WINS BY MERELY HOLDING THEIR OWN 5 CAPITALS.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Well, Baalz has swayed me with his argument. I do agree with Rathar that one player controlling multiple nations does give Good 'unfair' advantages it would normally not have...but if it's a choice between that and Good collapsing completely, I do prefer the game to continue. We really need to find a replacement asap though.

As to delaying the game: Please. No delays. No more. I can't take it. I'll agree to anything if it avoids any more damned delays! (Only slightly joking. ; ) If we absolutely must, we can delay. But if there's any other option (such as CUnkown continuing to play the nation until a replacement is found), then it has my vote.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Sounds reasonable.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Okay, so we are going to continue with the game, and look for a replacement for Pythium? But, Arco will be set AI and all his stuff sent to Good. If no replacement is found, I will take Pythium's turn again. Everyone agrees?

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Hi, I've agreed to sub for LA Arco. Give me a couple of days to look things over and read over some of the posts. This seems like an interesting game.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I am still adamantly against one human playing two nations. No matter what.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the situation and I "think" I am accounting for my bias in it but it's still uncool. Not quite cricket, what what!

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Well, if Arco is not going AI I can probably take them back on 5th. Assuming there is not bad attitude in good team and no one screwed what I repaired there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global War (started!)
 

THE BURNINATOR WILL BE SCREWING EACH AND EVERY PART OF ARCOSCEPHALE, ASHES IS ALL THAT WILL REMAIN SHORTLY SO NO NEED TO WORRY.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Rathar, so the game will be on hold until a sub for Pythium is found. Or, I guess Zeldor can take them back over on the 5th.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

The game is back on, because we found a sub for Pythium (archaelept)!

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I've given some thoughts about a possible sequel to this game.

First of all, I want to assure everyone that I'll be adamant to play this game to the end. There's no playing and investing 40+ turns over several months in a game to just let it slip into nothingness.


- I really like the secret enemy idea even though it didn't played out as I thought it would. Imho, two things went wrong : a lot of evil players didn't have connection with their secret enemy and many secret enemies died by other hands before any connection could be made.

There are two ways to correct it : either we force starting sites to make secret enemies neighbors or we give several secret enemies to each evil player on medium-large maps.
The second choice has my vote because it would be a heck of a task for any moderator to place each starting players and it wouldnt be that secret if you knew from the start that your predator was necessarily starting close to you. It would narrow your choices and lessen the backstab possibilities.
Imho, a good rule of thumb would be one secret enemy every 5 evil players. 1 for 1-5 evils, 2 for 6-10, 3 for 11-15...
That would assure you to still have a secret prey and/or predator by mid-game and make for a lot of gleeful backstabs whwen connections can be made.

- The ban on any kind of communication for evils was at best frustrating to them and at worse cause for weakness for the depth of this game imho. It hadn't got any rpg reason and it didn't bring any more pleasure for anyone I fear. imo evils should be able to communicate with anyone.
If you want to believe or trade with an evil player, do it at your own risks ! At best you're dealing with someone so untrustworthy you may never see the other end of your trade fulfilled, at worse you're dealing with someone who may very well have got your head on a pike as a victory condition !
The only exception would be for good players to trade items or gems with evil players for rpg reasons. Evil players should be allowed to communicate (insult, misinform etc...) with any players, up to the listener to believe or not, but I don't think a good player would lower himself to trade and help an evil in any way.

- Neutrals were supposed to be alone in this world but for most purposes they never acted as enemies and should not as long as good or evil represent any threat. When and if evil and goods are defeated or on their way to, neutrals shall fight as in vanilla...but I don't see the point : this doesn't fit in this game flavor imo. The settings make them unofficial allies? Well, just make it official and they shall be recon with. You could even have goods or evil striking at them before the end...

- otoh, I don't see a point in giving neutrals anymore advantages as evils and goods already have to cope with each others.

Good advantages :
- allied till the end. Win or lose together.

Good restrictions :
- can't use death and blood magic or gems.
- victory conditions : all evils defeated and possession of all good starting locations.
- can communicate with evils but can't trade items or gems or make any NAP with them. can do anything they want with neutrals.

Evil advantages :
- biggest faction on the map
- can do anything they want as long as it further their (evil) goals

Evil restrictions :
- must eliminate all good and neutral nations.
- They also have 1 secret enemy for every 1-5 evil players on the map. Only those who meet the first and second victory condition shall enter the hall of fame
- Goods wont trade with them and the above makes them at best third choice partners for any trade or alliance be it neutrals or other evils.

Neutral advantages :
- no restrictions on behavior whatsoever.
- goods dont have them as primary targets as they dont need to eliminate them to win.

Neutral restrictions :
- They must eliiminate good and evil factions to win. Win or lose as a team.
- They are the smallest faction

All this sums up to a sequel where we would have 3 real teams, evil, good and neutral. For obvious reasons, they should number according to their advantages and restrictions. 3 neutral vs. 5 goods vs. 8 evils is a good ratio imho. or 2 vs 3 vs 5 for a small map. 5 vs 8 vs 13 for a big one.


What do you think ?

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Hmmm, I'm trying to decide how much of this game played out because of the setup of the game, and how much just because of the particular players involved. My suggestions:

Evil players cannot trade with any other than neutral players. Evil to evil trades can be brokered through neutrals via whatever mechanism is agreed upon. Neutrals are not required to turn a profit, they can do this for free if they can be convinced it's in their interest, intimidated, etc.

No restriction upon evil communication, evil can plan anything with anybody, with the exception that no peace agreement may be made with good. Thematically, don't be surprised if evil doesn't honor their word, players are encouraged to play evil races as untrustworthy backstabbers when it's in the nation's interest. Hint: get your secret enemies to commit to a bloody war before you hamstring them! Note: though evil cannot make peace with good, they can coordinate with good temporarily to screw another evil player.

Each evil has 3 secret enemies (out of 9 evils). That means that although evil is free to coordinate in any way with all other evils, they know 1/3 other evils are out to get them!

Evil victory: All good capitals in evil hands, you loose if your secret enemy holds their capital when this happens.

Neutrals get no overt benefit other than not being in a ceaseless war the entire game...that is quite enough! Neutrals win when there are 2 or less of each faction remaining (including neutrals!) in control of their capitals and neutrals are in control of 2 good capitals and 3 evil. Neutrals can and should work together with everyone...to a point. If good or evil is about to win, that's the bestt time for neutral to swoop in and try to snatch victory from the presumptive winners. Note: it's in good's interest to make sure a neutral player is not intimidated by evil into giving them an advantage! Support neutral in this case!

Good - full coordination with each other and an any trade they can negotiate with neutral. No trading with evil, nor peace agreements. Victory - good holds all good capitals and evil holds none of theirs. Good is intended to play as thematically good and should honor agreements made even if they are with untrustworthy evil - be cautious making a deal with the devil.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

heh the timer got turned off... which is fair, because lolomo wasn't given a hosting deadline when he signed up to take over arco...

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Oh futz.. I missed our finding a sub and will get a chance to pop out a turn this evening! Sorry for making you wait!

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Well I quite agree with you on most of your suggestions. The only thing that still bothers me is the neverendinig peace for neutrals. For having played it, I find it an unfair advantage as they almost play in an environment like in solo games.

As I see it, evils should start the game with a rather simple objective : they must destroy or weaken goods and neutrals alike enough so that when the backstabing starts in mid-game they only have evils to deal with anymore.
Goods and neutrals are the two weakest factions and must seek survival in early game in order to benefit from synergies later on.
Neutrals have that advanttage to benefit from both synergy and death-blood magic which own in late game.

My issue with too much neutrality for neutrals ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif ) is they almost have a garanteed ticket for late game and therefore garanty for ownage.

The trick is to find something of a challenge for them to reach late game.

Apart from that...I'm in for the next game!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I was sort of surprised that none of the evils attacked the neutrals until late-ish. That wasn't the way I envisioned it, for sure.

Btw, the timer is back on, and a new turn is up.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I surely want to be in new edition of that game. I can also give some tips, the biggest one would be to create a special map with thematic starting locations [and nice choosing of secret enemies then].

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Yeah, I was thinking that with my suggested changes:

1) Evil would work together better early, but be hesitant to be too tightly coupled and always be jockeying to come out *more* ahead than their allies in any engagement.

2) Evil must kill good, but they also have an incentive to attack neutral because they're defacto immediately at war with neutral as soon as good starts to crumble.

3) Neutral is likely to be bullied by evil due to evil's better coordination (it's a lot more tempting to gang up on a surrounded and unsupported neutral if you can get another evil or two to attack from another direction). This will be counteracted by neutral's ability to bribe - it's better to have a friendly neutral so that items/gems can be exchanged among evil. This is of course balanced by good trying to maneuver so that no neutrals are surrounded and unsupported for exactly this reason.

4) If neutral's 'peace' advantage does manage to get them a ticket to late game, they still need to eliminate one of themselves - so neutrals can't trust each other too far.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I received a message that says "CD key violation - your CD key has been used on multiple installations. Your orders have not been executed."

Is this a bug? My last turn's orders went through without problems; this is only my second turn after subbing for this game. This is the first time I've encountered this in any of the games I have played. I have an original copy of the game.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

eh, that's if it thinks you are playing two nations... did you look at another good player (which is fine) but accidentally save a turn? that's the only thing i can think of.

edit: or, conversely, if someone else accidentally submitted a turn for you, as well as their own nation.

how this mechanic works exactly is not fully understood http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Nope, I have no access to the other good nations. I guess another nation should have this error message too?

Re: Global War (started!)
 

one would think... but like i said, the mechanics are not fully understood.

i've gotten it by changing a nation to AI in the game, which I also was a player in. Other people swear that that doesn't happen...

probably won't happen again, but who knows?

Re: Global War (started!)
 

AFAIK you can play for 2 nations from same cd-key as long as you use the same computer and OS. Problems occur with different computers [and maybe even starting a turn on one PC and finishing on another]. There was a thread about it. Have you tried saving turn again and submitting it again?

Re: Global War (started!)
 

no, this would be a message upon commencement of the turn; basically saying you didn't get to take one.

and when i got the message, both my nation and the nation i was setting ai were played from the same pc...

like i said, the mechanism is not well understood http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I also had that problem about 15 turns ago because I had started a turn on one computer and finished on another.

Now I just got a stale turn for my plane being toooo late http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

Is timer back on 24h hosting?
Because I wont be able to keep pace as I'm still on holidays...
One stale turn is bad (and this particular one more than anyone can know) at this stage but two or more... erf

Re: Global War (started!)
 

i think it's on 48 hr turns. i'm fine w/ 72 hr turns as far as that goes.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

It has been on 48-h hosting.. if you need some extra time, that is fine with me. We can go on 72-h.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

hosting was reset to 72 hrs... now server seems down? hopefully it doesn't start another 72 hr countdown http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Server is not down, timer is at 49 hours to go. But, honestly, it shouldn't go that long, because our 48-h timer was at 10 hours to go when I switched to 72 hours. Maybe another 24 hours should be the longest it should go.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I had to restart my computer, so the timer was reset. I believe there was 24-h on the timer left. So, I have turned off the timer, and I will force host late tomorrow (Saturday around midnight eastern time).

Quickhost is still on.

Just keeping you all up to date on the hosting schedule.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I'm back from vacations and shall do my turns as fast as before from now on
Thanks all for your patience :)

Re: Global War (started!)
 

the game is off the timer? i've kinda been depending on good ol reliable ermor to set the pace, so I know about when turns are actually due :)

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Server down?

Anything happening around the world?
This game has gotten so quiet I almost forget Eriu is still slogging along in the good fight.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Yes, the server was down for a hour or two there, but it's back up now. Ermor was set AI because of persistent stales.

What is going on in this game is that the Neutrals are planning their strike on us, heh. :shock: I am waiting for the hammer to fall sometime soon. We do seem to be doing well at finishing off Ermor and beating back Abysia.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

well baalz hasn't been sending many horrors lately... that's a bad sign.

it means he has more important uses for his slaves :o

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Nah, he blasted Eriu. It was one of those turns you open up and say "Oh sh#t" because there are 20+ battle messages - you know some serious operation went down. Anyway, it seems to have been repelled in most provinces so Eriu carries on....

Ermor AI? We just wiped out 475 of their undead including their immortal wraith lord hero with only 5 TNN casualties. It was a minor miracle. I am not sure how Eriu keeps managing to hang on but sure the hammer will fall one of these days.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

The Burninator Is Definitely On The Back Foot. It's A Tough Boat To Be Fighting A Steady Stream Of Pythium's Angels Outfit By Ulm While Tnn Raids My Blood Hunters Rampantly And Arco Stomps Around With 30+ Mage Stacks With No Interest In Research. Abyssia Thrashes Like A Titan Leaving Piles Of Smoldering Bodies In Our Wake, But Pythium Cuts A Huge And Bloody Swath Up Our Belly And There Seems No End To The *i*m*e*n*s*e*l*y Annoying Angels Of Fury. Now Might Be A Very Good Time For Some Of The Neutrals To Get In The Game.

Edit: *AAAAARG*, the new forums changed the burninator's speech! It now impossible to speak in a fittingly loud voice! :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

Re: Global War (started!)
 

The Burninator is way less intimidating in Title Case instead of ALL CAPS. It is a sign of the times. :)

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I do like the morbidly I mean heroically obese Angel of Fury.

You should see him at the buffet

as to the burninations - yup, they're pretty good at taking out PD ;p

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Don't worry Baalz, I'm sure the Neutrals are planning something. You have done an excellent job making life miserable for us. But with the demise of Ermor, you are fighting 4 people basically by yourself. A tough road for even the Burninator.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I could not access the game server last night or this morning before work, to submit my turn. And I won't be home to try again for at least another ten hours. I can't remember when the game was scheduled to host, but if it's before then could I get an extension until I get home? The turn is done, I just could not submit it.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I couldn't submit either, even after the posting that said the server was back up.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

yeah, server is down.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

The server has been up.. It was just down briefly for maybe 30 min or so. Are people still having problems connecting? If so, I have no idea what could be the cause. My IP address is right, port is right (2001), port forwarding is right, I have internet... I'm not sure what the problem is..

I have turned off the timer just in case.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

nope - doesn't see it there. no response.

reboot?

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Okay, computer restarted. I hope that whatever the problem was, it has been fixed now. Sorry about this, guys!

Re: Global War (started!)
 

I'm, at least, connecting fine now.

Re: Global War (started!)
 

Got mine in as well. Seems to be back up.