What are the strongest summons?
 

The Djinn looks to be a front-runner so far. Any suggestions?

Also, a question on the Djinn: If I read the description right, all your opponent has to do is to create another Djinn lamp? If that is the case, isn't summoning a Djinn a waste? I mean, you don't even have to kill it to take it away from your opponent.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not another Djinn lamp, the *only* Djinn lamp.
It's a waste indeed unless (a) you're the first to reach Construction-8 or (b) you're the only player able to control a (not-so-common) Fire-3/Air-3 mage.

What do you mean by "strongest" ? If you think of hp, the Abonomation (266hp) is probably the biggest ordinary summon (not counting the Rlyeh Void things). If you think of war machines, the Iron Dragon is probably a good candidate (150hp and 24 prot, immune vs lots of magic). If you want a mage, the Father Illearth is my fovourite so far (but I'd not the chance to call a demon lord yet)...

Cheers

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

With wish: Either a Vastness or another pretender god (ie sphinx).

Without wish: Depends on what you want. If you have good bless effects, the Jaugernaut is great! Otherwise Abomination or Iron Dragon. The Demon Lords are nice but have some side effect I don't like (ie lowering dominion) in my domain. You end up having rapidly resupply them with troops and move them back out.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

You can wish a pretender god? LOL!

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Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Yep, it's funny. They show up as a regular unit, you have to use gift of reason on them to make them a leader. So no spells, etc. But it's kind of spiffy in the end game to have all the fun pretenders running around under your control.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

But do they get spell casting abilitites back when you give him gift of reason?

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Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Nope, they don't. One fun thing to wish for is the Doom Horror.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

In fact, you don't wish for a pretender, you wish for troop of rather special type. He MIGHT have become a pretender, but didn't. But so what, that Nataraja-prophet could still be an awesome super combatant...

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Maybe not the strongest (haven't really compared the stats), but tarrasque is really something. Its sprite is also great. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
And considering the low cost (high magic requirements though), tartarian titans are also awesome. Through that spell, you in fact get other pretenders, only that they are dead and decaying...

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

For real gratuitousness, wish for a (stealthy) Lord of the Night, give him a Black Heart and some better gear, and now you have a size-6 flying assassin. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
As for Gift of Reason... interestingly, when you get a Vastness and GoR it, you find out that it's an Astral-3 mage (good AND bad; bad if you're planning to use it against nations with lots of astral power...).
In terms of building a front line, I like the Wight summons; you get 20 well-armored non-fatiguing non-eating skilled undead warriors for 30 gems. Enliven Statues can also build a decent front line.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Bleh! Abomination is still my fav! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd wish for a Void Lord instead of a Nataraja. You get one less attack (the Void Lord gets an extra life-draining tentacle), but the extra misc slot, better protection, better magic resistance, fear(+5) aura, underwater ability and immunity to eye loss more than make up for it IMO.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Vastness. Definately. You CAN'T beat movement of 10 (flying). After Gift of Reason, the V can zoom 10 provinces, easily beat local defence (Gotta love Blood Curse, sp?), set taxes to 200 and move away!

Yestereve got 3! Vastness' in 3 turns! So... I GoR'ed one and put the other 2 on tow and started taking provinces from the map at random.

BTW, Vastness really has Astral-3. GoR and see for yourself. Cast Luck and you have sacred ethereal creature which avoids 50% (from luck) of 25% hits (from etherealness) and on top of that, opponent who actually manages to land a hit must beat a magic resistance roll against Blood Curse (+2) or take the hit itself. But 0 prot and 'only' 76 hp makes it vulnerable to magical damage and as it is now hip, pop and on top, magic duel.

What's not to love?

- Humer

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

owning astral magic can be so bad
mind duel anyone ?

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

I would be really interested to hear what low level summons people have had good results with. So what magic level 4 and below ritual summonings have people done well with?

I have had fun with Fire Drakes as artillery for Abyssia but they are not a must buy option. Cave Drakes look allright but its hard to summon enough to make a big difference. Summon Shades seems very handy and I have made use of Horned Snakes - in both case the numbers per ritual are the selling point. Call of the Wild is still a beaut but beyond these and celestial summons for Tien Ch'i I haven't found a great deal yet at the lower levels.

Anyone tried Spirits of the Wood?

I didn't much like Vine Ogres in Dom I but they look more attractive with other options scaled down from Dom1.

Cheers

Keir

[ November 25, 2003, 07:50: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Spirits of the wood might be decent, but being unable to move to other provinces seriously limits the usefulness of hama dryads. In terms of low level summons I'd have to go for behemoth for death, although wights might be decent...maybe.
I think I like the Kithanironic lion for nature/earth, although vine ogre mass production is great and economical. Maybe pride of lions? Costs a bit, but lions are pretty sturdy and it lets you spend gems fast. The scorpian beast isn't so costly as a drake, and the wyvern is cheaper now for spending air gems...
I don't really see much in earth...earth magic just strikes me as weak overall really. Besides blade wind its battlefield spells are weak or hard to cast, and its summons are not great either, except for some high level construction.

And blood of course has a wide selection of demons..I like the area damage on frost fiends against light troops, but the rest are more pratical it seems.

In high level summons, tartarian gate is awsome...you get a undead pretender god/mage for 10 death and 20 nature (Gift of reason). And some of them are pretty good mages too.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Kithironic Lions are much improved from Dom 1. They cost less, while the seasonal spirits cost more.

Pride of Lions is less interesting, but more widely castable. The lions are a bit easily killed for my taste, but I can easily see using them in an early conflict.

Vine Ogres might also be worthwhile, but I'm not sure they're worth the time investment. They'd be much better if you got 3-5 Ogres for 3-5 gems.

The various drakes look ok now that Seasonals are more expensive. The Wyverns look like perhaps the best of this bunch, although I haven't tried them.

5 Gems for 3 Bog Beasts is a good deal -- especially for Miasma C'tis who starts with them!

IMHO the lesser elementals are still decent, just not so obvious a tactic as before.

Earth doesn't really get anything I like until level 5, either Clockwork Horrors or Gargoyles.

Tien Chi's summons would be good if Tien Chi was!

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And sometimes you don't even have to cast Gift of reason, as they come in a commander form. Awesome!

However silly it may sound, I see Spirit mastery as rather useful. You get a huge amount of cannon fodder for only 4 gems that is not completely useless either. If you have something to deal the actual damage after the paralysis kicks in, it works like a charm. For example, I found it to work great against knights and similar otherwise nasty units. Masses of ghosts both soak up the attacks, and evenutally succeed in paralyzing whoever they are fighting against, and then the rest is easy. Plus you don't mind if they die in droves, as you can summon droves just as easily, and they have a size of 1 so there are a lot of them per square, meaning a lot of chances both to succeed in paralyzing and to soak up attacks. They are also ethereal, and the sheer amounts mean they won't rout like the rest of the cannon fodder units.

[ November 25, 2003, 10:05: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

I have never seen Doom Horrors. How do you get them, aside from Wish?

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Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

What disadvantages come with "dead and decaying"? I have stayed away from Tartarian things for that reason.

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Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Wyverns are fantastic and I personally like Vine Ogres. 1 Nature Gem for 2-3 Ogres per cast (or more depending on your equipment) that are enough of a threat that they have to be targeted because of their high HP and decent damage; but not expensive gem wise.

I have never had a Tartarian Giant die on me yet because he was decaying; they just need some blush. They don't radiate disease AFAIK.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It was just a figure of speech. They are undead Versions of some pretenders, but otherwise have no downsides, aside from the fact they usually come with afflictions. They usually appear as normal units, not commanders, and that's what the "years of imprisonment have damaged the mind of dead god" in their description means.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

I think that damaged mind clause might refer to their tendency to be about 50% feebleminded. Of course if you can gift of reason them you can probably gift of health or get a fairy queen to help you out. Or you could just use them as really elite troops. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's true, but I had them coming with various other afflictions, and even a few who came as commanders without me having to cast gift of reason on them.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Using "Summon Animals" with Turmoil-3/Luck-3 and dominion of 7+ in my home province I got "lions/giant spiders/bears only" several times - that's 13 units with hp20+ for only 20 nature gems.

Vine Ogres are much cheaper, but don't have any attack or defense to speak of.

A.

[ December 14, 2003, 09:16: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Vine Ogre

HP 53 (Size 3)
Str 18
Prot 5
Att 12 (11, 11)
Mor 50
Def 3
MR 5
Pre 0
Enc 0
Move 2/12

Fist/Fist.

For 1 Nature Gem that is very nice. A decent attack skill isn't needed; as the fact he has 18 strength with 2 attacks (fist/fist) so he'll miss semi-often but when he does it will punch through armor/protection. Most Size 3 creatures, get swarmed by smaller units, so they are going to have a lower defense regardless, and I consider the 3 just a 'wth', sort of thrown in there, but it doesn't do anything and might as well be 0 for all the usefulness it provides. Their true weakness is against magic, I doubt a Vine Ogre could resist anything thrown at them, and I mean ANYTHING in all seriousness. That's just another 'wth' statistic.

Vine Ogres are great for smashing a flank or cavalry or Size 3 Things that try to trample, or just a wall of time. 53 HP takes some beat'n to get through so noone can use land units to rush through a core or flank to beat to archers or whatever you are protecting.

The primary issue with Vine Ogres is their "It requires a good mage, to cast who'd rather be out bust'n heads" and to be really cost effective it requires a mage with a few gems invested in him with some items to make it work.

I don't think I've ever summoned any vine creature (Ogre or man) with a Pretender (even the Druid), simply because they are so expendable.

Maybe if they add a synergetic "Bloom" or "Blossom" spell to some school that gives them perma-sleeptouch or a Sleep Cloud Aura (or allergies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) or "Burgeoning" that acts like the Pangaea Carrion Woods Unholy spells, that give Regeneration, MR, Protection, whatever I would consider it more of an investment and less of fodder.

OR a higher end Vine Creature like a Vine Thicket or Thicket Ogre or something. Maybe others use the druid's special ability and I am just not one of them; but he in my book, is only useful for stealth.

[ December 14, 2003, 12:03: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

IIRC, Ivy king with Treelord's staff can summon 5 or 6 Ogres for 1 gem. That can be handy if there is nothing better to do at the moment (I remember from that game that I often had only 1 gem left, and research was pretty much done).

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Vaetti hag with a nature pick is hardly an elite mage, and neither is a druid. And dryads, bards and even daughters of avalon could be used. And a five-gem Vine crown is not very difficult to make.

Oh, does anyone know what creatures you summon in different terrains using Summon Animals? I have summoned giant spiders (NOT machaka ones!), black hawks, lions and wolves in many places, bears and boars in forests and some kind of snakes at swamps... I think I got bears from mountains, but am not sure. Has anyone researched this? Oh, and if luck affects the quality (as it does for crossbreeds) Summon Animals becomes number one mass summon spell for turmoil-heavy Pangaea, in the start at least.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't realize you meant vine ogres... Still, nature-2 mages can cast it with a 10-gem item they can forge, and more than 100 hps for 2 gems is quite good.

[ December 14, 2003, 12:16: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Druids are great for it if you want to spend that many gems doing it (Which isn't unreasonable, but 15+1 per cast is alot in my book, but it depends on the incomes and game and everything)

Think about Mothers/Daughters is they are Capital only. I build only Crones at the capital and they are also capital only and as many as I can; ADDICTED TO CRONES am I http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If I was ever crazy enough to put a Treelord Staff on a noncombat/ritual mage I'd put it on a Bard though; and a crown too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But 40 Gems is too much for 2 extra fodder. Better and more effective spells/summons for that.

[ December 14, 2003, 12:54: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Related but different question. What about mid level summons? You know, things that your normally recruited mages can pump out in decent numbers. What do you find very effective? Summer Lions comes to mind, but I have not played around with this too much, so I am interested in your thoughts.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Lamias are nice.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Mid-Level Summons... Pale_Riders spell gives you 20 longdead horsemen for 10 death gems.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would have to disagree... the earth kings are awesome. Lots of life, regenerating and poison immune! Easily made into supercombantants with more regenerating items and a wraith sword. Being lvl_4 earth mages also allows them to cast invunerablity(30_Protection). Of course elemental kings are not mid-level summons... this was clearly a response to a previous post.

[ December 15, 2003, 15:49: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

I consider "Mid-Level Summons" to be of the troop type not Kings, Arch-Devils, Ice Devils, etc that are commanders/SC's. Some of my more common Favorites.

All the Seasonal Spirits have their place and position (I don't know what our cutoff for Mid-Level is here).

Summer Lions - Expensive but powerful. A good unit be bait; force attention on them while you tear at their army from a different direction.

Fall Bears - See Summer Lions, but not as effective because they do not have radiation.

Spring Hawks - The equivilant of a battlefield assassin. They are fragile but get the job done, don't expect them to survive long. Just have them do their job.

Winter Wolves - Cheap, radiation effects and ethereal. What's not to love? Of course you have to have a matching dominion or they might as well be Spring Hawks.

Spirit Mastery - 4 Death Gems for some fodder that have the chance to paralyze everything they can hit.

Lamias - Cheap cavalry type of unit that has multiple units per cast (my favorite) so it doesn't eat up too many mages time.

Mandragoras - See Lamias.

Clockwork(s) - Fodder against magic heavy nations and armies and good for defending a castle entrance. Plus they are cute.

Behemoth - No Morale Elephants for everyone.

Reanimated Archers - Fast firing free Xbows, even some disease thrown in for good luck.

Blood - I like Devils and Demon Knights personally; though if you don't have access to heavy penetrating missile using troops and do have access to Frosties or Storm Demons, they can fill a gap.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They might come if you cast a high level spell (e.g. Wish) while the Global Ritual Astral Corruption is active.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Summon Ghost at Level 6 Conjuration is not bad if you have a high-level death-mage. The number is 2+ at 9 gems. If you have a level-9 death mage, it'll be one gems per ghost in each casting - cheap and efficient.

Blood Rite at Level 7 Blood is not bad neither but it's more research.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Has anyone seen the computer opponents cast WISH?? And if they have what was casted??

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

A mage under a Dome of Corruption, casting spells during Astral Corruption, wielding the Banefire Sceptre and Magebane, wearing a Robe of the Archmage, Boots of the Planes, the Forbidden Light and Horror Harmonica should have a decent chance of seeing more horrors than he could ever want. No bets on his longevity 'tho.
Seriously, if you want a guaranteed-friendly horror, use Wish + Gift of Reason. Otherwise, well, you place your bets and take your chances with enslave/charm spells.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

I forget another one. The second level spell "Hell Power" also summon Horror in combat. If I remember correctly, the longer you survive, the bigger will be the summoned horrors. The horros are not necessarily friendly and they have a good chance of attacking you though.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">just for fun?
no...
it's a map-move 10,fly,76 life,25 prot(vastness 0),+15 fear,NO ASTRAL MAGIC' creature..
i prefer to wish D-H instead of vastness/abo*4 ^^

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

my Favorites:

* clockwork' horror
* spirit mastery
* winter wolves
* army of the dead
* wish: doom horror

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Ermors priests reanimate undead all the time after they have been summoned. That means, if they summon 1 arch bishop per 2 turns, at turn 30 they have 15 reanimators. IIRC right (Dom1, rich world) they can do this without finding any new sites at all! As Pangaea, you would have to have about 1 new nature gem per two turns to get the same amount, plus all the equipment. With Ivy Crown it takes three full turns to get your gems back, but with other items it takes longer, while Ermor doesn't NEED any items to make it worthwhile.

But it is true that Pangaea could in theory use 10 gems /turn to summon Ogres and get 3+ ogres per gem used, that is 30+ vine ogres /turn, and it is a very nice amount. I hope I'll get my Dom2 soon...

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

I think that Vine Ogre (Cast by an Ivy King with a Treelords Staff) gives the best bang for the buck (5 Vine Orgres for one gem).

The Iron Dragon is my second fav summon. Flying size 6 trample with great protection. Gift of Reason one and have him lead a pack on a random province taking mission (After he gets his Anti-Magic Charm that is).

Sammual

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Vine ogres rock http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Lvl 3 conjuration(vine ogres) and lvl 2 construction(vine crown) is all you need.

And a nature friendly nation like pangaea and you can start pumping out 5(resources gotten per turn from basic pangaea) 10 of em per turn with 5 pans/pando's with vine crowns.

When your territory expands and you find more nature gem resources you might wanna make treelord staves and put more pans/pando's on summoning you can outsummon Ermor even with units that cannot be banished http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

I am amused. Clearly, you people's games go MUCH longer than mine do. No doubt because I'm playing with only one other person at a time, and we're at each other's throats so quickly.

But to my question. R'lyeh. I love R'lyeh. Not for their power, which is decent, but for their style. A man has to go with style. And what's the coolest thing they've got? Well, of course, horrible otherworldly things summoned from the Void Gate!

So does anyone know how to get the best out of the Void Gate? Is it sensitive to higher-level mages? Is there any way to restore a feebleminded mage's magic so that he can go back to summoning? I've gotten a few nifty things out of the Gate, but they've all been pretty weak so far. I want to see what it can really do.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Void-caused feeblemind is only amenable to the usual cures for afflictions -- having a commander which can heal afflictions (e.g. Fairy Queen), remaining under a Gift of Health until it's healed, using the Chalice et al.

The priestly starspawns have the best chance of getting stuff without getting feebleminded, IIRC. The national hero Cthgul the Stargazer has an even better chance than your average priestly starspawn, but you get at most one... Astral magic matters too, I think.

Give 'em good guards, because the more successful summons they pull off, the better chance they have of getting fun monsters, and good bodyguards makes it more likely they'll live that long.

Greater Othernesses, Formless Spawn, and Vastnesses are pretty interesting.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

You remember correctly. The difference between the priests and the wizards is VERY obvious. Nothing else is showing any clear sign of making a difference, even whether or not the priest is a prophet.

Interestingly, it has to be an Illithid priest. A Telestic Animate, for example, can't use the gate.

Thank you! Thanks to your advice I've been able to play with wonderful Vastnesses, Things That Should Not Be, Greather Othernesses, and a host of other unspeakable beings from beyond our understanding.

And casting Gift of Reason on them was fun, too.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Being able to use Void gate efficiently is a special (stacking) ability, and only few commanders have it. Compare it to stealth. And no one can enter the gate without astral magic. So, the only effective summoners being Starspawn priests does not mean that other priests would do any good. And the Stargazer-hero of R'lyeh is better than the priests, or so I have heard. I don't believe the pretenders who came from Void are very effcient at summoning, or even able to.
They are not going to go back after having so much trouble getting out of there in the first place...

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

The game SAYS Cthugul the Stargazer is a good summoner. I've personally gotten much, much better results from standard Illithid priests.

It's interesting that there's a non-race-specific site for summoning void monsters. I'm going to have to put it on a map sometime.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Did the priests have experience in summoning or were they fresh ones?

I think the Stargazer is better than the priests, but as I still don't have the full game I only post what I have read elsewhere. And I might remember that wrong.

Re: What are the strongest summons?
 

Cthugul is not better, he's just less likely to go insane, which is good.