a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

i noticed today that the hybrid's which spawn in your coastal land provinces are not upkeepfree .
in small maps with less than 100 provinces they are a very nice idea .
but on big maps like faerun / orania the hybrids are annoying .
in my game i played i owned ~15 coastal provinces and through the spawned hybrids i had to pay each turn ~10-20 upkeep more .

this really hurts since it is a very time consuming + boring task to get rid of all your hybrids by letting make them suicide attacks on enemies . + once you control all costs and need to travel 3-4 provinces inland to the next enemy it is really a pain .

now comes the worst part :
a hybrid has a basic morale of 11 while your starspawns have a morale of 9 and your star childs a morale of 10.

so once either your upkeep gets higher than your income or someone casts utterdark not the hybrids but your valuable mages will desert first !

in general even if you sacrifice most of your hybrids each turn through suicide attacks you will still have many of them and pay 200-300 upkeep for them although you would never have recruited them .

so i would suggest to make them upkeepfree in the next patch because they are a serious disadvantage for ryhleh on a map like faerun and i don't think this was intended .

[ July 11, 2004, 15:45: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

they spawn "only" at coastal provinces with a fort .
you get at least one per turn , on average you get 2 / turn .
i guess they have a cost of 10 gold , so an upkeep of 0,67 .
if you control 10 coastal provinces you get around 20 / turn , that's ~ +13 upkeep / turn for something you don't want . this is huge .

a solution would be to not castle your coastal provinces but that would be very unfair since castling is a very loved play strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

so plz either make them upkeepfree in the next patch or don't let them respawn anymore and make them recrutable or leave them out completely .

thnx in advance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

Build fewer coastal forts!

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

Use Gateway. R'lyeh can easily move large quantities of troops from the interior to the front via Gateway.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">bah each gateway costs 10 astralgems.
+ it's a lot of unneeded micromanagement.
+ some hybrids might unfortunately survive the suicide attack and spread on the neighboring provinces
if i gateway into territority where they can't retreat i loose each time an astral 4 mage .
so very funny but not serious suggestion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

@tinkthank

that's a solution but i don't like it very much because i think it's unfair for ryhleh because of the following reasons :
1. the coastal provinces are your beachhead so you most likely fortify them
2. ryhleh is designed for the watchtower and so for castling because it's troops cost so little resources http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
so you have either the disadvantage that you may not build castles in coastal provinces or you have to deal with the hybridproblem .
both choices are evil ihmo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

You could cast Murdering Winter on yourself. That'll get rid of them, especially if you also took some Cold, as it does not affect you underwater. You probably have a ton of water gems somewhere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">they're all clams http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
again a funny bud bad idea . at least if you have 20+ coastal provinces in faerun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

do you play sometimes ryhleh norfleet ?
since you like castling and ryhleh is just designed for the watchtowers do you castle your coastal provinces then or not ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

what do other serious ryhlehplayers do to minimize the harm done by the stupid hybrids ?

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually the simple and effective solution to this problem, as well as to all other similar problem, is just to add a small button "Dismiss unit" to Dom2's GUI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I mean - why can't you have ability to dismiss unit when you don't need (or can't afford) it anymore?? It's not that it would break the mood or be thematically incompatible with the Dominion2 vision AFAICT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


If devs would want to add a bit more flavor (as well as realism) to this option, perhaps they could make province's unrest increase by 2% for each dismissed unit. (when you fire a large number of trained soldiers you are very often looking for trouble, since some of the disgrunted soldiers can join bandits or just stir unrest in the civilian population of the province).

[ July 11, 2004, 21:45: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do, but I've never encountered a problem with huge numbers of hybrids. R'lyeh has the easy ability to move them into battles via Gateway, and if you run them into nearly anything, they tend to die rather quickly. If their constant running bothers you, try communing up for a nice casting of Growing Fury, which should helpfully make sure they fight to the death. All in all, I've never had so many hybrids that they've actually caused a noticeable upkeep drain. Maybe I just abuse them more than you do.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

yep that's what i wonder always too stormbinder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
it's one of the few features dominions is missing .

in aow 2 shadow magic this worked very well for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif once i was strong enough i disbanded my quite useless cheaper units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
it would perhaps enchance national units a bit even because you can buy them in the beginning to expand and don't need to bother if you sacrifice them later .
and another similiar problem is the sucky militia you get as a "good" luck event

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

[ July 11, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: drool ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do, but I've never encountered a problem with huge numbers of hybrids. R'lyeh has the easy ability to move them into battles via Gateway, and if you run them into nearly anything, they tend to die rather quickly. If their constant running bothers you, try communing up for a nice casting of Growing Fury, which should helpfully make sure they fight to the death. All in all, I've never had so many hybrids that they've actually caused a noticeable upkeep drain. Maybe I just abuse them more than you do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm so if you play at faerun e.g. when you have e.g. 20 coastal provinces and 150 or so in total you gather them together every ~5 turns to send them on a suicide mission ? that's horrible unneeded micromanagement ihmo

perhaps you are expanding fast enough and doing this every now and then but it's simply unneeded ihmo.

in 20 provinces you get about ~40 at least per turn , that's about + 25 upkeep per turn .
if you are in a pattsituation for some turns or even loose some inlandprovinces it sucks ihmo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

perhaps you didn't notice it because you always win anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

Maybe this was intentional from the devs to balance out the castling strategy for this nation a bit.
I am no expert R`lyeh player,but as you say,the Watch Tower seems very well fitting...maybe too well without all those Hybrids spawning up and annoying you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Faerun is also an extreme situation ,because of the massive amount of provinces...and extreme situations always require different/more brutal approaches.

btw I used the disband option in AOW2/SM also a lot,this option is clearly missing here.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You'd first have to get IW's programmer to overcome his extreme aVersion to working on anything UI-related ...

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's nothing that overcomes extreme aVersion quite like the threat of having molten lead poured under your skin.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You'd first have to get IW's programmer to overcome his extreme aVersion to working on anything UI-related ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's nothing extreme about his aVersion. Everyone hates UI. Don't you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

I don't think it's an aVersion, but a fondness of working with other stuff.

The reason there is no 'dismiss' might just as well be our sadistic sense of humour. Ask Norfleet. He knows what I am talking about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does this cure my aVersion to molten lead as well? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .
How do you pour it under someones skin? Wouldn't a more conventional gurgling be easier?

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Everyone" doesn't hate UI. I don't. I do detest bad UI. There's no excuse for it. What good is software that's hard (or impossible) to use? Answer? Not much. As a programmer, what I'm good at -- second only to finding bugs in other people's code -- is designing UI.

Dom 2 doesn't have bad UI. If it did I wouldn't play it, no matter how nifty the guts might be. But the Dom 2 UI does leave much room for improvement.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">O ye of little imagination. First you flay the subject, then you ...

As for gargling, having molten lead poured on one's flesh, while excruciating, might not be immediately fatal. Ingesting said fiery substance most assuredly would be. If your objective is to inflict maximum pain and suffering, the Last thing you want is for your subject to escape your tender ministrations too soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You'd first have to get IW's programmer to overcome his extreme aVersion to working on anything UI-related ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's nothing extreme about his aVersion. Everyone hates UI. Don't you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif In fact custom UI programing is one on my specialities, and I don't mind doing it.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For real? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I don't program much, but to me it would be more rewarding making a change that made the game more fun to play and as I rarely am bothered by the UI in dom2 I would prefer a new interesting feature.

The 'dissmiss' however would fall under features in my book, as it is something that would affect the game play. Thus it must not go through the UI filter but the general preference filter.

We have speculated in different forms of dissmiss costs. A year of pay, a small cottage by the sea etc. The army takes care of it's own you know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When evaluating what is "most rewarding", you must give a great deal of weight in prioritization to eliminating things that a majority of Users find annoying. Whether that be quashing a bug, making a UI tweak, or adding a new feature. "Interesting new features" are not of as much value as the removal of things that are constant irritants that detract from the enjoyment of already-existing cool features.

The dismiss function, isn't really a new "feature". It's fixing what is technically a design flaw in the UI. (Sorry, but not having it in the UI is a design flaw, despite the fact that the current system works as designed. Explanations of why it's a design flaw have been made in various threads over the past six months, and I won't repeat them here.) As such, many people consider it a bugfix, not a feature.

I think the real issue here isn't so much a case of aVersion to making a UI change as it is an aVersion to the thought that the current (no-dismiss) system (which the devs favor) isn't what players want. Which goes back to another thread where I brought up the subject of "what the devs want in their game versus what players want". Which in this case is fundamentally an issue of how much of a customer-oriented company IW is (or isn't). Which is a case of "giving the customers what the devs think they should get" versus "giving the customers what they ask for".

As for "the army takes care of its own", historically this isn't true for most nations and periods. Service in the feudal era was an obligation, and normal troops weren't paid. Mercenaries were paid for work, and when their work was done, simply dismissed, and if they were good they might get a thank you and a recommendation. Severance pay is a modern concept (which derives, in part, from what Roman *officers* -- elite and hardly typical soldiery -- got upon retirement). IMO, troops should be dismissable without cost. Commanders should have a dismiss cost, which should be reasonable, and less than the cost of hiring them in the first place.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

it would be funny if the dismissed troops would attack you after you dismissed them.
i don't remember the name of the game but i think that was in a game .
it would be a real nice solution since you could test then in sp how good your sc's are http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
would be really very funny ihmo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
you summon e.g. 2 archdevils and equip / script them differently then you dismiss one and watch who wins http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
edit : i think this feature would greatly enchance single play since the ai can't build Übersc's
so you could practice for mp in sp much better and it would be really funny to make duel's with your troops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif you could organize whole tourneys if only 1 ai is left http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 12, 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

Well probably you should go for some options:

Dismiss A:
The troops aren't payd anymore and start attacking the current province they're in, but pillaging the province even before any battle occurs.

Dismiss B:
You want to pay your veterans, you spend X gold for piece (based on unkeep cost), and they raise the currently province where they're locate population by Y where Y are the soldiers dismissed, and IF the soldiers are national troops of a certain quality (ie crippled elite and so on) the PD of that province raises of a Z amount (they can train better the commoners levying in that province).

I'd add a feature when you cannot pay the unkeep.
If a troop fail his Morale Check it deserts as usual, if a commander fails a MC all his troops under command and him become a new mercenary company with the name "*commander's name*'s* *asset of randon names*" ... like Fighters, Warriors or according to the troops he's commanding.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What, you mean the poll where you flat out told the devs that you knew more about how the game should work than they did?

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. I'm paid pretty good money to do exactly that sort of thing (telling people what their software products should or should not do) in my professional life. The fact that I've been doing it for 28+ years implies that I've been fairly successful at it, too.

The additional fact that the poll rubbed you (one of the worst fanboys on this forum), the devs, and many others with too-sensitive sensibilities the wrong way does absolutely nothing to lessen the underlying point. I don't believe in tap-dancing around issues or sugar-coating replies for ease of consumption. I assume other people are adults (until they prove otherwise) and have the maturity to accept arguments in a rational and logical manner. Alas, I find way too few people that understand the concept of reasoned discourse, much less are willing to practice said concept.

Finally, I'd also call your attention to the statistically significant number of poll respondents who agreed with me.

EDIT: PS - this is about as polite a response to flamebait, GD's obvious intent in his reply, as I can make.

[ July 12, 2004, 14:52: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

Umh, does UI stand for User Interface?

If so, then dismissing isnt a UI problem, imho: Just add a "get lost"-command, which tells a commander to drive his assigned troops away during a fake maneuver in the woods. The commander should then go away himself by a percentage chance based on the troops' experience points, because of his bad remorse due to disbanding his loyal servants...

(Oh, wait, this would also implement another new option: the option of resigning a game, if you give this order to your pretender... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

I've mentioned this idea before, but I think ideally, most or all units who are dismissed without pay, or who retreat and are eliminated due to no-retreat-province, or retreating mercenaries...

... should be remembered, grouped by compatible type (hopefully no paladins mixed with undead, or iceclads with hot abyssians), and occasionally reappear in the form of either good event reinforcements for the lucky (not necessarily for the side they originally served), or as independent attacks on provinces, or as new mercenary bands.

PvK

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">An interesting idea ... that I suspect would be extraordinarily hard to code. You get points for original thinking though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

Sounds easy enough (and fun enough) to code, to me... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The tricky/annoying part would/might be deconflicting incompatible types for the new Groups.

PvK

[ July 12, 2004, 17:27: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMO, the tricky part is what's involved with the "remembering" aspect of your proposal. I think you underestimate the data structures that'd be needed to do this.

In light of what I've previously posted on this subject, were I the responsible dev, I'd first code a basic (and no-cost) "dismiss" functionality (to close the existing hole in the game's design) and then, later, enhance the dismiss functionality (in one or more ways as per various suggestions) in the form of a new "feature" added to that basic function. It's the principle of stepwise refinement. Build complex systems up from simpler ones. It's easier to do than biting off a big task in one chomp. Nibble around the edges ...

EDIT: the "deconflicting" aspect should be an inherent property of the aforementioned data structure(s). IOW, once you've stored all the relevent info regarding the unit(s) to be disbanded, then conflict-resolution should be automatically derived (inherited) from the data structure when you go to apply the event that accesses that data later on. Fundamentals of modern OOD/OOP.

[ July 12, 2004, 17:55: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

Sidestepping to reality, with IW as the dev team, it depends on whether or not they already have a way to categorize units into appropriate/compatible types. I can't think of any evidence that they have any such categories - my guess is the existing "themed" mercenaries and independent province attacks and reinforcements are all hard-coded.

Even so, it seems to me the hard part would not be adding a (object-oriented or not) method for categorizing units itself, but creating one that works for all unit types, assuming none already exists.

It seems like the tactical AI could also benefit from a method which knows to separate units with dangerous auras from units without invulnerability to them.

Anyway, recording units and putting them in Groups by compatible type for later use sounds pretty straightforward to me... though I don't know what data structure they use. If it's a massive array with all kinds of ancient spaghetti attached, maybe it would be a pain.

Most we can do about such code details is speculate, though. I mentioned the idea because it sounded like the _main_ obstacle was lack of a fun idea for what to do about disbanding units, so I thought I'd mention what sounded fun to me.

PvK

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For real? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I don't program much, but to me it would be more rewarding making a change that made the game more fun to play and as I rarely am bothered by the UI in dom2 I would prefer a new interesting feature.

The 'dissmiss' however would fall under features in my book, as it is something that would affect the game play. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What, I'm a fanboy because don't attack the devs when they don't pander to the whims of the players? How dare they not work on exactly what the players tell them to work on! After all, we are entitled to a years worth of enhancements on a product that was nearly bug-free out of the box.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is otherwise known as being an ******* for the sake of being an *******.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Such a poll is nothing more than an appeal to popularity, if the respondents were actually separate individuals, and not the result of one person creating multiple accounts to sway the results, as has happened with other polls.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, if you actually feel that you are entitled to have the game made exactly the way you want, then the flaming is probably well-deserved.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's precisely this sort of stupid statement that proves my point on you being a fanboy. The rather lengthy list of bugfixes in the 4 patches since release belies your ... buggy ... assertion. Dom 2 was *functional* out of the box (something that cannot be said of some games), but it was far from bug-free. To IW's credit, they've been diligent about quashing bugs, or at least those they are willing to acknowledge as bugs.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, it's rather obvious that you are clueless as to the distinction between politeness and frankness. For the record, you've a lamentable lack of politeness. In short, you're a rude, obnoxious lout. Which is impolite of me to say.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you truly believe anyone on this forum would go through that much effort (to create multiple accounts just to skew a poll)? There are modern drugs to treat such paranoia. I suggest you seek some.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Flaming is never deserved. It's a Last resort for people who's brains have reached their limitations in ability to process information in a rational manner. Alas, there are no drugs to treat such an illness. The only effective treatment is plenty of bedrest. While such bedrest may not appreciably help the diseased one, it will certainly make the lives of those he's inflicting his ravings on much much more peaceful. Get some rest GD. Please. Soon.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Aside from the battle replay inconsistency, and a few things that could occasionally crash the hosting process, there were virtually no serious bugs on release, and still are almost none. Which is why I stated that it was virtually bug free.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahh yes, and of course, _you_ are qualified to determine what is and is not a bug. Why don't you tell us what major bugs are still lurking out there? After all, you've mentioned that some still exist in previous Posts, but haven't stated what they actually are.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm rude? Who's the one who started to tell the devs, once again, that they don't know what they are doing? You're the one who is perfectly willing to state that you know what is best for the game, and are always willing to derail any given thread to continue to whine about the topic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I stated in my reply, that very thing has been done on this forum to at least one poll about the state of the AI.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Flaming is almost always deserved by people such as yourself. That would be people who use a false veneer of civility over top of inflammatory remarksin an attempt to slip under the radar of the administrators.

[ July 13, 2004, 03:56: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't used the term "major". You have. I simply stated that bugs still exist. Please do not twist (or worse, add) words. As for listing them, why don't you go to the sticky thread and read them for yourself. Or are you too busy ranting at me to be bothered to do so?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, you *are* rude. And who annointed you Defender of Illwinter? As for derailing a thread, may I point out that I made one (small) comment in this regard (in passing) in this thread, and that it was YOU who have jumped in, repeatedly, to level personal attacks at me and keep this argument between us going? You even went out of your way to do so, disregarding an entire post to extract just one sentence, just so you could perpetuate your animosity towards me as evidenced in many Posts and threads over the past months. You'll also note that my other Posts, mainly to PvK, have been strictly a discussion on the original subject? Have YOU posted anything relevent (or even meaningful) on this thread's subject? No.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Looked in the mirror lately regarding false veneers and inflammatory remarks? "Flaming is almost always deserved by people such as yourself." speaks for itself as the sort of posting that draws the attention of Moderators, along with your use of foul language in an earlier post.

If you have nothing useful to contribute to the subject of this thread, GD, then please shut up. Your "I hate Arryn" diatribe just clutters up the thread. And so as not to contribute further to such clutter, I'll not respond to any further postings from you.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not in this thread, no, you haven't, which is why I mentioned that it was a different thread.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And you are considerably more rude with your continual "Arryn Knows Best" attitude. What's the point of this remarkable revelation?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The comment was _not_ made in passing. It was the most central point of your entire post. That is the point that you, as a player, obviously know more than the devs about what needs to be done to the game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That personal animosity arises almost entirely from the poll you made several months ago, which you have yet to apologze for. Your continued attitude since then illustrates that my initial judgement of your character was correct.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What false veneer? I'm flaming you outright, instead of pretending to be civil and doing exactly the same thing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What foul language? The word *******? If that damages your "too-sensitive sensibilities", or "rubbed you the wrong way", then I'll just remind you that "I don't believe in tap-dancing around issues or sugar-coating replies for ease of consumption."

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I could have contributed something to this thread, except that it would be wasted on someone who is so utterly convinced that they are right.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is actually false. Many drugs exist to treat this ailment, including cyanide, arsenic, and strychnine.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point. BTW, you left out ethylene glycol (antifreeze), which is far easier to obtain.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It wasn't meant to be a comprehensive list, merely a short list of examples of drugs which are known to treat the aforementioned ailment. The actual list numbers in the thousands, which just goes to show how easily this can be treated.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Aside from the battle replay inconsistency, and a few things that could occasionally crash the hosting process, there were virtually no serious bugs on release, and still are almost none. Which is why I stated that it was virtually bug free.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since y'all already said '*******', allow me to say 'Bull****'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Unless your definition of "bug", "serious bug" and "virtually bug free" are seriously out of whack with my score year as a software developer.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're so negative. It's not a bug, it's a feature!

[ July 13, 2004, 06:06: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

If I could add my own opinion amid your attacks against each other: I feel there is something fundamentally wrong with a game that causes free troops to be more harm then good. Perhaps the 'bug' is more an innate game play problem. Now, there’s no need to go beating me up for my opinion like you did to GD.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

I like to see that list of bug fixes.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They might be quite different. There are about 80 bugs listed as fixed in the various patches. Most of these are quite minor things, that don't prevent you from playing the game, things like having two Admiral's swords in the game. Of the major bugs that can actually damage a game that is in progress, there have been about 5 or 6 that have been fixed since the release. This includes the battle replay inconsistency, a couple of crash bugs in the VCR, and the problem where two servers that both started at almost exactly the same time on the same machine could sometimes end up sharing the same temp files, which could toast the game data. That's not exactly a large number of bugs, and people pretty much got what they paid for, which is a functional program.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

How bizarre, I went to read this post because I posted the third reply, and see that with the exception of about 10 Posts on how to address the issue (mostly between PvK and Arryn -- my suggestion was a workaround), this thread has become a platform for animosities, which I bet no one really wants. Although I am sure that neither Arryn nor Graeme (or anyone else) is interested in my opinion on this matter, and I certainly don't want to take sides, I'd just like to try to difuse things a bit.
It seems to me as if the "principle of charity" should be applied here more liberally. Thus it seems to me as if
- Arryn is not stating that the game is vastly suboptimal or unfun, but just that some issues could still (reasonably) be addressed
- Graeme is stating that (more) credit should be given the developers for producing an excellent game

It seems to me that both people are correct; it seems to me (who knows neither of you) that both person's choices in formulation and in tone are suboptimal -- and although I do not want to take sides, it seems that Graeme's choice of words and phrasing is (in this thread) most ungentlemanly and poor.

I have no idea of any poll of Arryn's (I havent bothered to look, either), so I can't say whether there were insulting remarks (or implicit speech acts to that effect) previously, but it seems to me that Arryn was not being insulting to anyone in this thread here, nor was he or she (gender of Arryn = ?) indicating that the devs are making serious blunders. It also seems to me acceptable to give constructive criticism where this is due, and anyone giving reasons for this which make sense cannot be considered "insulting". I dont think Arryn is attacking anyone here. This would be a different issue if s/he were to say "What a lousy game; fix this now you lazy dev person! I want this-and-that, and it is my right to demand it from you, oh dev person!" It seems to me as if Graeme is construing Arryn to have said this, and I don't think that is necessary. Arryn did not go out of his or her way to shower the devs with praise for a fine game, and this may lead/may have led Graeme to conclude that Arryn thus believes the devs to have done a poor job -- but this, I think, is not intentional on Arryn's part. I dont think that any serious poster here need continue to shower out praise (although of course praise is nice) when offering constructive criticism in a fair and reasonable tone.

Well, the best to everyone out there -- remember, it's only a game!

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

Well said, tinkthank, although I think Graeme did have a point about Arryn's know it all attitude. I do, however, agree with Arryn.

Can we PLEASE get back to the real subject now? It seems to me that any troop should be useful, no matter how weak, especially if given for free. Maybe it’s just a balancing problem; that some units should cost less upkeep or something.

Re: a very small suggestion for the next patch for ryhleh ( devs plz read )
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Myself I find the hybrids very useful. They only have the upkeep of a 9 gp unit, which is negligible in my book since you don't have to pay for them in the first place. I always wish they'd gather in greater numbers on my shores, since I never have enough cheap fodder.