Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Hi,
After suffering to Mictlan in a number of games, I begin to realize there is maybe something to do with them (mostly mass demon summoning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )
But I've no brillant idea about a good pretender... Basically, is a Blessing strategy really useful (the sacred troops are just ok, nothing great IMHO), or rather should one go for a big Blood mage (to get the big blood stuff easily) , a magic poor SC to help the (crappy) troops, or stg else ?
I suppose Mictlan requires good scales (except Prod), medium dominion at least and a cheap fort, so is en expensive pretender worthwhile ?

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Mictlan can clamhoard quite well as well .

I would suggest an SC pretender , a ghostking or a VQ .

Ghostking :
Order 3 , Heat 1 , Sloth 3 , Death 1 , Misfortune 2 , Magic 3 .
Castle Watchtower , Dominion 7 .

A2 F2 W2 N2 E4 D4 S4 .

In the first 20-30 turns your ghostking expands + sitesearches . This way after 20-30 turns you will have about 10-12 (almost) fully searched provinces .

With E4 you only need one pair of boots of earth to have the option to cast Forge of the Ancients when you were lucky with finding earth sites .
After the first 20-30 turns when his searching duty is over your Ghostking will become a forger/caster till the end of the game .
I normally forge first about 10-15 hammers .
Besides blood + construction try to get conjuration 6 or even 7 quickly .
Conjuration 5 gives you the possibility to accashic , Con 6 gives you the spectres and con 7 gives you additional Deathcasters + the imo great ivy kings .

Only small drawback is imo that you probably need to empower a deathmage in blood to get vampire lords .

Focus mainly on hoarding . In lategame you can then boost your bloodincome with wishing for blood and kill everything .


The main weakness of Mictlan is imo their lack of combat mages . And the only non-capitol only mage is the B - priest which is for nothing else useful than bloodhunting + bloodsacrificing .

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

What about giving advice that's actually usable in multiplayer for a change? If I know my PDF well, I guess that's what he's looking for.

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Uh, yes, but why don't you think Boron's advice to be usable in MP ?
Looks great to me (if not particularly original) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

How about giving some yourself instead of whining? I realize I'm doing the same, but being an utter noob I don't feel I have any advice to give. Nagot on the otherhand is obviosly an expert.

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Do you think in a reasinably competitive MP you'll get enough time/find enough earth gems (from 10-12 searched provinces) to "first" forge 10-15 Hammers (why "first" BTW? Does it means, even before SDRs?) and have Forge up? While we're at it, like any other blood nation Mictlan does best on site-poor maps (the poorer the better), so that's the kind of game setup you should look for - and consequently, it'll make a site-searching rainbow pretender even less desirable.

Clamming with Mictlan, why not - if you like to turtle? But I'd bet an MP game will be decided long before you can empower and equip an astral-4 GK to the point he can wish for more blood. The fact that Mictlan needs to push its research in Blood Magic as well as the other schools doesn't help here. I'd say the "Focus on that" (ie, clamming) advice is a recipe for disaster in MP.

Empowering a death mage in blood to get Vampire Lords - what a waste of blood slaves, especially if you want "to get Conjuration 6 or even 7 quickly". If you can't get the undead hero, Lamia Queens are bot cheap and effective death mages with 2 sorcery picks. I'd rather burn 15 nature gems/turn until I get one with a blood pick or 2, rather than empower a necromancer.

"And the only non-capitol only mage is the B - priest which is for nothing else useful than bloodhunting + bloodsacrificing". Under Boron's magic+3 scale, he's a damn good magic researcher as well, cost-wise. If Boron doesn't use them for research duty, I wonder how he ever get Wish, Vampire Lords, Ivy Kings, etc. Or I must assume he's incredibly lucky with Sage sites.

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Actually I (and many others) already replied to this very question in the past and I was trying to locate these older Posts and provide a link to them - but it seems the Boards' search engine isn't that good. What about trying yourself, maybe you'll be more lucky than me?

Whining, me? Oh, dear! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

With all due respect, I think people on this board have a bad habit of flaming others for giving less than perfect advice. If someone says something wrong, why not just correct him where you disagree and offer a better solution? I'm not only talking about Nagot here. It's keeping people away from the Boards, and ultimately hurting the game. Dom2 is strongest in multiplayer, so why scare away the newbies?

Now that I'm done complaining, here's a suggestion. Which, I might add, is probably not perfect, and hasn't been tested in MP, but I hope you'll let me live anyway.

Vampire Queen
3 Air
3 Earth
3 Death
4 Blood

4 Dominion
3 Order
3 Sloth
2 Heat
1 Growth
1 Misfortune
2 Magic

Wizard's Tower

(You might have enough points for another good scale, not sure)

The pretender's paths complement the national mages nicely IMO and give access to most of the usual SC spells (air shield, mirror image, mistform, *skin, invulnerability, soul vortex). You can probably make a dwarven hammer for cheaper soul contracts if you want to pursue that path.

Alteration-3 gives you spells to expand with the pretender. Construction-4 gives you dousing rods for blood hunting. After that, research Blood and consider Alt-5 to beef the VQ further and Const-6 for the path boosting items.

The national troops are crap, but slingers can be fun if you have a lot of them, since their hail of stones gives them a good chance of routing independent enemies.

I like to forge thistle maces and have priest kings summon dark vines, but that's partly because I think tentacles are cool.

Edited for clarity and great justice

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Fair point. I now realize I sounded a bit harsh or petulant, while my intent wasn't to flame anyone. I think I know PDF well enough to understand he was looking for MP advice (although he didn't say anything about it in his initial post - but he confirmed later, anyway), and Boron, unaware of that, was kind enough to provide some ideas. I merely wanted to point out his advice, while OK for SP games, would fall short in multiplayer - IMO of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

Re: Netiquette
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif This is a very good point! However one should also be aware that written communication is extremly easy to be misunderstood (lack of intonation, body language, language translation, etc.) - which is why emoticons were invented. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Therefore people should also not let themselves be angered by Posts too easily, for it might not have been intended that way (like in this case)...

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Yes, you were right (about the fact that I wanted MP advice). I realized myself that Boron's strategy advice for 15 hammers was not MP-oriented, but didn't see that the whole pretender theme (search-oriented) was not either.

Funny thing is that I was looking for original ideas, and currently I have a GK and a VQ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif ... Well, I didn't ask for inefficient design, so ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Re: Netiquette
 

You're right, I was too quick to jump on Nagot here. It's just that I have seen many people insult Cohen and Boron for no good reason, which made me judge too quickly.

Nagot, I offer you a binouse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif as compensation for my rashness.

Now give me some feedback on my pretender, I'm desperate to get Mictlan to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Nagot was correct, however impolitically he may have presented himself.

Foom: Vampire queens are still good, but quite expensive. you'll be solely relying on her pretty well for expansion. and 4 dominion is a likely death sentence in multiplayer, and wizard's tower is nice but too pricey.

its true that Boron is more of a turtler, at least when i played him, but i'm not so impressed w/ vampire lords and soul contracts. sure, they're good, but no big deal. well, it all depends on settings, but w/ an extreme bless strat, Mictlan has the best sacred units in the game. even w/ just a fire 9 bless they are quite useful and definitely cost-effective. I like an F-9 A-4 Moloch, though i'm used to dealing w/ it's tendancy to "run away". a few indy archers in the back will usually work, until i'm able to solve the problem more permanently...

using zen's pretender mod i've had very good success w/ an ultra-dragon (dual bless), however I don't think this will still be viable under the scales mod.

Re: Netiquette
 

Ad hominen insults are always unexcusable. Maybe I sounded a bit rude wrt Boron's opinions, at least you'll note I wasn't disrecpectful to him. Well, I hope anyway - English isn't my first language, and before I got accustomed to Usenet slang I did some memorable fumbles like confusing "moron" with "regular". When I replied to someone "you're obviously a moron in this newsgroup", he wasn't really happy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Ah, that's my first encounter with this word, "binouse". Maybe I should check if I'm not allergic to this kind of beverage before I accept your offer? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Looks OK to me. The Wiz Tower is a great castle, just (IMO) not as great to Mictlan as it is to most nations, you can still do OK with a Mausoleum or Watch Tower. FYI, my Last Mictlan design pretender was:

LotN
Air 3
Earth 3
Death 5 (just for the increased fear factor you get at each 5-uple, and because I could afford it)
Blood 3

Dominion 6
Watch Tower

Order +3
Prod -3
Heat +1
Growth 0
Luck -2
Magic +1 (always was enough for me, and I never liked the MR malus you get vs hostile rituals when picking +2 or +3)

Leaves 120 unallocated design points, but it was for an handicap game (so you can pick up to 3 extra scales or a Wiz Tower if you want).

So quite close to your own design actually. I prefer the LotN to the VQ because I want my pretender to be able to fight outside his dominion early if required - but YMMV.

I guess it's more a problem with handling the nation than designing it.

Re: Netiquette
 

Just wondering, would a F9B6 Moloch be a waste of points? On the one hand, no access to Dwarven Hammers or death, air, & earth multipath blood spells.
On the other, ubercheap(But capitol only) eagle warriors with two flaming, high-strength, high-skill attacks per turn(Four if Quickened), that strike before ANY buffs are cast when defending, and after only one turn of buffs when attacking. And probably end up getting a hefty surround bonus when they attack lone ghost kings, or whatever. If there's a more cost-effective SC killer out there(Other than Carrion Woods goons or these same warriors plus Weapons of Sharpness), I'd like to hear about it.
Couple that with the not-at-all-shabby jaguar warriors you can recruit just about anywhere en masse(THREE for the price of one Ulmish black knight, and you can afford sloth 3, to boot), the combat machine that is the Moloch(Properly supported), and the ability to cast all pure blood spells with only a few path boosters, and methinks you've got an adequate setup, at the very least. Am I right?

Re: Netiquette
 

Något, no hard feelings I hope. Foom summed up what I was trying to say in an excellent way.

I suppose I should contribute something as well.

I've tried the Smoking Mirror in sp, but he just gets killed from random events, so no good. I wouldn't wanna go to the trouble of protecting him. (Btw, that line in the description about him divining the fates of men, what's with that? It's not like the Jade Emperor and Lady of Fortune, is it?)

I would agree with the ideas presented here. A pretender with a little blood and the paths that mictlans priests don't have. Also, he doesn't need to be a great fighter mid/lategame, since mictlan should scoop up a number of the blood uniques.

A Ghostking with air3 earth4 death3 blood4.
Order3 sloth3 heat1 magic3.
Watchtower.
Dominion ~6.

Something like that. Backed by several minutes of sp experience =)

Re: Netiquette
 

You're paying a lot for these 6 levels of Blood Magic, but the idea has some merits. And a strong focus as well - in that case, adding punch behind multiple attacks that rarely miss. I'm not sure the +3 STR bonus is worth 230 extra design points (if I count right), but I like it anyway. Now add Rush of Strength to that, and I'd bet any hyper-prot, hyper-def SC will be in dire trouble.

Just try it and tell us how it works (when compared to a pure fire Moloch approach, I mean).

Re: Netiquette
 

No blood expert here, but I'd suggest another nation and option for SC killing: Any Vanheim theme with Valkyries is an option for a nice bless effect. F9W4 for instance - they may not get as many attacks as your eagle warriors, but with a mirror image and high defense they're fairly sweet. Another option with them is death blessings, allowing them to rout archers and whatnot - again, the mirror image helps keep them alive long enough for the fear to take effect.

Re: Mictlan Pretender
 

Having played Mictlan once in MP (and losing handily), I can one thing about them: they are abysmially weak in the beginning. Because of the intense need to sacrifice slaves early if you want dominion spread, my VQ did not work very well at all. Maybe I was too scared to fly into enemy or neutral dominion with her, but the dominion spread was so horrid early on that I was unable to properly expand with my VQ.

I therefore came to the interesting conclusion that the VQ was much too expensive for Mictlan. The Ghost King would be the superior choice if you want a pretender SC. But I would never take so many different schools as Boron proposed, since you need more than 4 dominion and also some decent scales. My GK pretender for Mictlan probably would not get more than air, water, and earth. This, along with the inherent death, is enough to make a powerful SC pretender anyway.

However, I think a fire 9 or water 9 bless on a cheaper pretender would work quite well because of all the inexpensive sacred troops. But be sure and save some pretender points to get a high starting dominion, though. I think 6 is rock-bottom minimum and 7 is better. You want your sacrificed slaves to work hard for you early on to try and decently expand your dominion.

Another problem with Mictlan is that it MUST blood hunt the entire game to stay alive. Other blood nations, like Abysia and Vanheim, hunt by choice. Not Mictlan, as he hunts for survival. This means a death scale is particularly harsh on Mictlan. When your population is dead, so are you, for your temples are totally useless without blood slaves to sacrifice in them. Taking a death scale means that you are relying on expanding into your neighbor's territory who took growth. This is not a very pleasing strategy to me.

One big advantage to Mictlan is the ability to take sloth 3 without blinking an eye. Their sacred troops don't need resouces in the slightest. They are also cheap, plus you are getting free fodder with the slaves, so Order 3 is not an absolute requirement like it is for most other nations. This means that a turmoil/luck strategy just might work for them. I was thinking of testing that out, but have yet to do so.

The cheap Mictlan Priests are pretty good at researching, they are cheap, and you get them everywhere. Magic 3 is therefore also not an absolute requirement like it is for the poor researching nations.

One thing about my Mictlan game was that I first researched Alteration 3 for my VQ (not needed for a non-SC strategy), then Construction 2 for the essential Jade Knives, then on to Construction 4 to get the required SDRs and Brazen Vessels. I then put everything into blood research and managed to get all 6 Ice Devils before Abysia could. I also got 2 of the Arch Devils before he could.

So, what does this all mean? I dunno...

Re: Netiquette
 

No worries mate, you'll have to try really hard before raising my temperature - and anyway, I think in that case if someone has to apologize, it's me and nobody else.

Looks OK to me. Besides, I like stealthy pretenders with Mictlan, for sneaking Fiends around - always a nasty surprise for the unwary enemy.

Re: Netiquette
 

The problem is Mirror Image or a Water blessing doesn't help Valks to survive lethal auras like Breath of Winter or Soul Vortex, or even a big Fire Shield, and it's likely many high-end SCs you'll meet will use at least one of these. Fire-9 Valks may have a high attack rating, but their damage rating is still low compared to Eagle Warriors, and it may not be enough vs hyper-prot SCs with gobs of hitpoints for them to get the edge here. EWs have twice as many attacks, and if they can get a STR bonus on at least 2 of them on top of that (I believe the STR bless bonus doesn't apply the the extra 'holy' fire attacks - maybe I'm wrong), then all the better. Vicious' idea here is to kill these SCs ___FAST___, before they, or their auras, kill a significant number of your flying sacred troops.

Plus, EWs are considerably cheaper than Valks - 4 times less, so what's not to like?

Re: Netiquette
 

Wouldn't your avatar be at a very high temperature? Ah, that doesn't qualify?

Slightly more on topic, would the Fiends of Darkness be helpful for early defence? Their flying might be helpful to bring down these SCs depending on their buffs to survive in melee; or is the current trend on strong combattants, with little magic support? I have some embarrassing memories of a Virtue being taken down by a handful of Fiends, as she wasn't that strong without her handy spells, so my view is probably quite biased.

Re: Netiquette
 

If you are asking for the pain of playing Mictlan, my first bit of advice would be to play with reasonable VP's or a time limit. The biggest killer of Mictlan is it's own micromanagement, or more appropriately the need to use resources to circumvent some of that micromanagment. Creating Control Groups, making sure you have labs, etc, waste precious resources in order to stomach the icky micro.

Other than that. I have been very, very successful with my Mictlan games as long as I adhere to the rule of Sacreds.

Unless you plan on having some sort of silver-tongued diplomacy with pure and pristine, totally-honest and forthright neighbors, you are going to have to fight in the early game, if not for territory, for Dominion. The easiest way to spread your dominion is to kill other temples, gods and prophets .

Regardless of Scale Choices and Pretender Designs my first 3 armys in the first 10 turns look like this:

First Army: Starting Troops, +2-4 Feathered Warriors, As many Javelin Warriors as you can reasonably afford.

Second Army: Slaves from Initial Tribal King, 10-15 Eagle Warriors

Third Army: 10-15 Fiends of Darkness.

Using these armies either seperately (3 different armies) or combining a pair to take on different types of indies is the key to making the Mictlan Early game work. After the early game, you only need to worry about getting up 4-5 Blood Province Production centers. I almost always capitalize on the Magic 2 + Mictlan Priest spam, rush to Ice Devils and take a Pretender that can summon Ice Devils, worrying about equipping them later. I also tend to put at the very least 3 Air on my Pretender in such circumstances in order to forge what I need, when I need it. If I don't choose to put Air on my pretender I choose Astral, my second line of research is not Construction but Conjuration and I get a Harbinger.

All the time I have for now, but If I have time later I will offer a few more tendancies.

Re: Mictlan Pretender
 

Uh-oh... expanding into your neighbor territory, not a pleasing strategy to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif I guess everyone wants to be your neighbor in multiplayer games! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Just kidding, there are a lot of solid arguments in your post. Although I've never played long enough games for a death scale to really hurt me. And it should be noted that Mictlan has no real need to push its dominion, beyond what is needed to avoid extinction thru lack of it. Morale is not an issue to demons fighting in adverse dominion. This may not be true if you're playing with GEs like Gift of Health or themes like Water Cult, of course.

Actually, playing a low-dominion strategy with Mictlan might be an incentive to go with Order-0, maybe pick a Fortified City to somewhat make up for the income loss in the capital, and sacrifice just what you need to stabilize your dominion here? Since you won't reap the benefits of an orderly scale in most of your empire, you might as well want to save some design points. Maybe pick Luck instead, since the number of events doesn't scale up with the size of your empire beyond a threshold? Not having spending gold on fortresses and too many slaves in sacrifices, that should be appealing enough. Building temples as needed in captured or special site forteresses (taking advantage of the winged demons' high ability to siege and storm). Etc. Not sure it's worth it, but maybe someone will give this idea a try? This will definitely require a very agressive mindset, though.

Re: Mictlan Pretender
 

This was some interesting points in your post, Nagot.

I guess the reason I was so intensely focused on dominion spread in my only MP Mictlan game was that I started right next to a 10 dominion Ermor, who proceeded to spread death and decay into every single border province I owned. I went through heroic efforts to keep the ugly dominion spread from going past one row of border provinces. Perhaps if I had been luckier on my starting location, I could have done things differently. Or if I had been strong enough to take him out at the start. But I didn't because of my poor scales due to taking the VQ. And she is a horrible pretender against mindless Ermor troops who do not rout.

In fact, I still think that my biggest error in that game was spending far too many design points on the VQ before the game even started. Had I known I would start next to Ermor, I might have tried a fire 9 red dragon instead.

Re: Netiquette
 

Ahem, do you really think firing a flamethrower at a nuclear bLast will raise its temperature significantly? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Fiends are great for many things:

(1) their claws are magic weapons, thus they're better than Devils vs ethereal targets.

(2) they're highly stealthy, thus hardly spotted even in mid-sized Groups, thus great raiders - give a Spectre flying boots and a dozen of Fiends, and give your enemies headaches.

(3) for the same reason, they're (with Hordes from Hell) the best tool in Mictlan's arsenal to capture fortresses - it's hard to reinforce one that seemed safe at some point, and gets besieged by 2 or 3 scores of Fiends the turn after.

Depends on how you define 'little'. Titan-sized pretenders with 2-4 levels in 2-3 magic paths - that's what you can expect from me, usually (not always), like it's always been.

Virtues are awesome early againts indeps. They're quite terrible at dealing with demons, undead, or berserk troops.

Re: Netiquette
 

fire 9 red dragon with zens mod seems to be quite awesome. with enchantment 1 he can take every indie province solo on indie strength 9. And you can even afford order3 magic 3 growth 3 dom 6 with the usual sloth/misfortune/heat scales.

Only problem is that you don´t get good sitesearching, but since you focus on blood anyway, that´s not a big deal.

Re: Mictlan Pretender
 

Ah, damn, as bad a start as one can get, then. Hopefully it won't happen everytime you play Mictlan.

Re: Netiquette
 

Or a pretender who can forge a Robe of the Sea (contruction 2). May look expensive at 20 gems, but if Blue Dragons are your style, it's still cheaper than giving blood magic to your pretender.

Re: Netiquette
 

the problem there is that mictlan can only count on 1 water/turn, unless he's willing to alchemize his also limited astral income. might as well rush construction 6 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Actually, one of the things I most like about Mictlan is how many variants on strategy they have. I don't personally rush for the ID/AD and instead count on mere mass of blood (after going quickly to const 4 for SDRs) to guarantee me a good selection of the blood summons. (especially under zen's mod, which ups the price and lvl of the ID, and improves the heliophagii).

As to taking blood on my pretender, I'd have to say I don't tend to do that. blood is by far the cheapest to empower, and spending so many design points on Blood 6 seems a waste, even though the bless effect is quite nice for the micts. blood 4 I could see, though for a Moloch I'd really rather have A4 to make up for Mictlan's prime elemental deficiency and to give a very strong boost to the Moloch's indy-fighting abilities.

And I don't usually go for early game fiends, as it takes so many of my capital only mages to summon sufficient numbers. However, fiends are great, and it really is a viable alternative; certainly, if I were not to take a blessing strat, I would summon them.

As to not taking death, ehh, this has been argued before. Even death-3 has never really bothered me (other than by making my large armies starve)

Re: Netiquette
 

I hadn't noticed the flamethrower in your avatar before, and merely spoke of your avatar in general, nuclear bLast included. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Hmm, the Fiends have magic weapons. Annoying that. Thanks for mentioning that, though you should not give "your" PDF too many ideas. *Coughs* Well, I will be playing in the game where he will toy with Mictlan, so.

Oh, and I can only concur with your comment regarding Languages and small misinterpretations. One of our fellow countrymen innocently asking for a "douche" would certainly face an odd reaction. (A "douche" in French merely means a shower, which is not quite the same meaning as in English) But I am digressing once more.

re
 

I have but an advice: take at least a level 7 dominions. The chance of rising your dominions by blood sacrifice is tied to your current dominions. If you take a too small dominions, you will waste vast quantities of blood. Starting at 7, you can reasonably move to 9 or even 10, and you will see a world in variation.

PDF, your honnor command you to not take a VQ or GK. Thats would not be fair against the newbs.

Now that I think of it, you dont have any honnor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Netiquette
 

Not my opinion, and I'd bet it isn't Zen's opinion either, for exactly the same reason - or then he wouldn't be so adamant about giving his pretender the required skills to summon IDs. Even if he didn't say it, I believe he'd beeline for Construction 4 before rushing for Ice Devils - because SDRs are just that important, as they double your Priests' output. When I play a Blue Dragon, my research plan is Alt 2 (Quickness), Ench 2 (BoW) - ie, giving the Dragon what he needs to fight efficiently -, then Constr 4 for SDRs - this also gives the Robe, the Brazen Vessel (ie, what a Rain Priest needs to summon IDs), as well a bit of gear to enhance the Dragon's survavibility. Then straight to Blood 5, and by the time I get there, there are just enough gems in the lab to forge a Robe, or close. So why would I ever push for Construction 6?

Re: Netiquette
 

if you didn't put water 3 on your pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

and if you did, empowering him in blood or starting him w/ blood 1 might be more efficient.

Again, a lot of these decisions affect others. One reason to rush for ID's is to provide a needed military boost to Mictlan fairly early, in order to compensate for a perhaps otherwise slow start. However, w/ a bless strat, especially a bless strat backed by an SC, early expansion isn't so much an issue, and grabbing all the IDs not so important (if there is even another nation looking like they're going for them). So w/ a bless/SC strat, I would normally just go to const 6 before heading for the blood summons. by the time i hit the IDs/ADs, any and all still available become mine.

Oh, and beating up on Abysia is a good idea too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Netiquette
 

Hmmm, I said (basically) "throwing flames at me isn't likely to raise my temperature". If I'm the nuclear bLast, the flamethrower is in the other guy's hands.

Heh... even funnier, this can also happen among people using the same language. Eg, never say "Tiens, je vais vous montrer une photo de mes gosses" to a Québequois. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Mictlan Pretender
 

It just means that I was an incompetent Abysia player. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Don't count on it working with someone else!

Re: Netiquette
 

I see; at long Last, I got that comment about your temperature and your avatar. Slow? Who, moi?

Thanks for the warning about the "gosses" in Quebec; that was one I didn't know of, though I do not have any child, so I wouldn't have used the phrase to begin with. Still, that would be a classic case of misunderstanding at best. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Netiquette
 

Hmmm, maybe I was lost in the thread, but I thought we were assuming a Water 3+ pretender here, since the point you replied to initially was just about that - choosing a pretender that could forge a Robe of the Sea.

The example I had in mind was a Blue Dragon, and buying him Blood 1 would be damn expensive in design points. And you'd need at least Blood 2 (thus 96 design points) since the whole point of this subthread was about rushing to IDs before researching Construction 6. If you want Construction 6 done before Blood 5, then the point is moot (because of Water Bracelets) and I fail to see what we're discussing here.

Of course, buying Blood + Water on a rainbow or half-rainbow pretender certainly would make sense - but the neat thing with the Dragon is you get a reasonably cheap level 9 blessing and fast access to IDs without having to spend a ton of design points.

Hmmm, depriving the other nations from IDs is also important. Besides, when all you need is a water+1 and a blood+1 item, and you get them at Constr 2 and 4, what the hell is so important to you at Construction 6 so you can delay ID summoning - is it just to save 15 water gems, forging a bracelet instead of a robe?

Re: Netiquette
 

Maybe not, but you could still say something like "J'aime bien vos gosses", which wouldn't be better... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Netiquette
 

again, one may not have water 3 on one's pretender. the thread is about mictlan pretenders, not solely those w/ water 3 ;p - the point replied to was "why one would ever go to construction 6". certainly when I spoke about going to construction 6 I was not considering myself to have taken Water-3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif. Taking water 3 and forging a robe is plausible, in certain circumstances, of course (like a water dragon).

W/ a blue dragon, you could also consider empowering in blood and forging two +1 blood items at const. 4, or one +1 blood and two empowerings (110 blood and 100 blood respectively). That's a pretty heavy blood hit, but doesn't cost any design points, though the robe of the sea seems more attractive (20 water and 20 blood cost).

whether one needs/wants to rush for the ID depends upon who one is playing against, and what nations. As well, it depends on whether one is playing w/ the conceptual balance mod, where there is less reason to rush for them.

side note: I don't think "gosses" is much in vogue as an offensive slang term. you might get a smile though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Netiquette
 

Well, I read this subthread slightly differently - to me it went like this

...which was obviously implied since the beginning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

OK, then we never were on the same wavelength - and I'll agree with you on that - Mictlan definitelty needs Construction 6 before starting to summon Ice Devils without water magic on its pretender. Question closed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I never implied it was offensive. In mainland France, "gosses" just means "kids", and I've been told by friends who went to Québec (and made the mistake I related) it was used for something completely different here. When you say "Let me show you a photo of my kids" and they understand "let me show you a photo of my ..." (well something Tarzan has a pair of, and Jane hasn't), it's still somewhat... embarassing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Netiquette
 

heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

implies an alternate line of action, not dependent upon putting W3 on your pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I prefer an F9 blessing for mictlan. It gives a bit more punch, and the benefits to your SC are definitely greater. However, it does tend to preclude the ID rush, at least if you go for a dragon. The Golden Naga in zen's mod is a nice choice for all things though... (F9 W3 A3 E3 B1 should be possible, or close to it, w/ correspondingly ****ty scales. But mictlan can survive ****ty scales, so..)


i think "sales gosses" is even more evocative ;-)

Re: Netiquette
 

You never give up, do you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif OK, this round is yours. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/ArrowRight.gif[/img]

So do I, actually.

Well, at least mine aren't. I go to the "douche" every morning.

Re: Netiquette
 

heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

back to the actualy topic, in un-modded DomII, I think my overall preference is to the Moloch, and I was wondering how others' experiences w/ him were. True, you have to put a bit of work getting around his love of fleeing, but besides that he fits the bill perfectly for me.

I put air on him, but certainly putting water on him instead seems a plausible alternative, especially if you wait to throw a ring of regen on him.

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Err. tried this in one MP game as a thematic Mictlan pretender, and it turned out quite well in the long run, though it was (in retrospect) a very risky proposition as it relied on being able to expand far away from my capital to have somewhere to put my researchers and on construction to enable a Rain Priest to summon Ice Devils, which, of course, took longer time due to low initial research, which means I would have lost out in an Ice Devil rush (which did not happen in that game). It did give me a very powerful SC throughout the game and a super ritual caster, and the bless effects (though minor) were well thought of by every single Priest-Mage. Having tried it, I am not sure I would dare use such a setup in MP again as the number of things that can go wrong are large. However, when it works...

Lord of the Night
Dominion 7
Air 3
Earth 4
Astral 6
Death 4
Blood 5

Order 3
Production -3
Heat 3
Growth 1
Fortune -2
Magic -3
Mausoleum

On heat: Income takes a hit but devils like it
On magic: Research as far away from your starting point as possible and/or next to somebody with a magic scale. The best you can get is a "0" effect but that is quite enough if you buy enough of Michtlan's priests. It is also nice to get MR bonuses back home where important mages make rituals.

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Whooh, thanks for all your valuable input ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
(though it's sometimes a bit lengthy ... Nagot should be a novelist, what about writing "Dominions War & Peace" ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif )

On my side I was thinking of a stupid Blood Fountain like B6 A4 S4 (Bloodhunt, Storm Demons & WS, Hellbind,high Blood and Astral rituals...),
Scales O3/S3/H2/G2/L2/M3,
Dom6,
WatchTower
but it's surely very poor in early game, and early game is difficult for Mictlan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

"Dominions Wake" would be more my style... although the result probably would be a weird piece of litterature! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Why Heat 2 when you can afford Heat 1?

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

Hmm.. either you're making fun of me, or I'm forgetting the only useful words I've ever learned in the French language http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

It might work well on low independent settings. I guess it also depends on whether you're using Zen's pretender mod. I like the new fountain since it gives free blood slaves each turn, but that's probably more valuable to, say, Diabolic Faith Marignon than Mictlan.

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

I'm not making fun of you, it's just "binouse" seems to be used in parts of France and not in others, and I had never seen or heard it before. Now that I've learned what it means... could I have another binouse please? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Mictlan Pretenders ideas request
 

In 40 years spent in France I've never heard of a "binouse", surely it's a local word/idiom ...
About Heat2 : Nagot, I just follow your advice of taking one more scale point that preferred by the nation, so overall the provinces will more tend to desired Heat-1 [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] Did you forget it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif