OT: Politics
 

Since there is some political discussion in another thread that has nothing to do with politics, I thought I would make a place where people could talk politics without going off topic in other threads.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Perhaps that is not such a good idea. Tends to end up with a fight.

Re: OT: Politics
 

What "another thread"?

Re: OT: Politics
 

Cor: Hopefully that will not happen.

Teraswaerto: The Encouragement thread.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Actually, there is a Shrapnel General forum for such things. It would be nice if people moved around abit on the Shrapnel site

Re: OT: Politics
 

Well, I think I remember Dominions 2 having such a thread, so I didn't think it would be that big a problem.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Dominions2 forum had such a thread, but it was locked and deleted. Some highlights included one then-active poster telling me I would be better off six feet under and other hilarities. So we might want to steer away from politics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: the conversation in the other thread, I got the impression it was just some people from the states throwing jokes about themselves and their countrymen, then other people from US misunderstanding the jokes to be slander and taking (sort of) offense. But YMMV.

Re: OT: Politics
 

If people don't want to post in here, they don't have to. This is just a thread for those who happen to want to talk about politics. If people start throwing around personal insults, then Shrapnel has every right to lock/delete this thread.

Re: OT: Politics
 

The Dominions forum (the only place I look) tends to have many more Europeans than the rest of the boards. I remember talking politics in the GD forum, usually about guns and 9/11, but only the Americans were chipping in.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Gun control and the 911 terrorist attacks are an American issue, I am not surprised Americans were the ones chipping in.

Politic arguments spiral downward pretty fast. This is because neither side is totally right or wrong, and both sides value the love of their party, form of government etc. over the truth or statistics.

Rather than prescribe to a political party, or preach the merits of a particular type of government, I find it is best to look inward, know what you feel to be right or wrong and let that be your guide as far as what is good or bad legislation. Sometimes it can be difficult, because it can be hard to identify who is pulling the strings, but anytime a politician opens their mouth, just question to yourself what their true motives probably are. Doing so, you can figure out what is really going on most the time.

There is an art to taking the lies that come out of one side's mouth, and the lies that come out of the other, then using those two lies to identify the truth.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Something I wanted to mention in that other thread, so I'll do it here. I long for the USA to return to something approaching isolationism. Far from being America's problem, I think that ending our non-stop wars across the planet would be a solution to what ails us. And for what ails the rest of the world, for that matter.

Re: OT: Politics
 

More traditional hardcore wargamers tend to be wonderful people but knee-jerk conservatives. I wonder if fantasy hardcore wargamers are a more liberal-leaning bunch. What do you think?

If we are, why? Tolkien, who if I understand it denied that his writings had an overt political leanings, none the less painted a very simple black and white world. Though it had a much warmer heart, in a way LotR presents choices as simply as that 300 movie; war is the the choice of the valiant, talk of peace comes from traitors and fools. This is a very right-wing way to evaluate the world, and is still the message coming from our US President.

So maybe there's some other hidden liberal influence. What are Gary Gygax's politics like?

Or am I off-base, and fantasy wargamers are indeed as conservative as traditional wargamers? Then I'm just spinning my wheels.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I don't know about in general fantasy war gamers, but I'd say the dominions community is more than a little left-leaning from an american perspective. Largely, I would guess, because such a large percntage (even an majority?) are European.

There is also the fact that the Dominions setting tends to weed out the hardcore Christians.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I still can't tell whether I'm a Green or a Socialist, and am from the US. So I'm an independent. Labels are so droll.

But arguing politics in this forum is really just the sign of people waiting on new posts to read or an MP game to finish another turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Kind of heartening, if sad, in a way.

Dominions does indeed give weed to hardcore Christians, quantum_mechanic, after all, there's no other way to get them to play. Lucky bums.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I agree about traditional hardcore wargamers being conservative, in general. Also that fantasy gamers are more middle of the road, at least. I'm not sure where that comes from exactly, but I don't think it's Gary Gygax, although he could be liberal, for all I know. I've never recognized any political message in Gygaxs' works one way or the other. Not that it's not there, just that I haven't seen it.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Historically there are many examples of invading people for their own good, and how well that works. When will we learn the "prime directive"?

In the other thread I was hoping someone would call me to bear for my american comments and "many of our critisizers are americans with a long list of qualifications for being able to critisize". Im a politican magnet. Im a native US citizen, registered, graduate, a home owner, a family man, vietnam vet and retired military.

But as far as politices, Im a member of the "toggle switch" party. I made that up. I dont think either of them are right enough to be in power for too long so I recommend switching them out on a regular basis to minimize damage.

Gandalf Parker

Re: OT: Politics
 

Umber Hulks are clearly thinly-disguised representations of Dick Cheney. Clear as day. Gygax is obviously part of an anti-Bush conspiracy.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Gygax may not have been big on politics, but a sure sign of a Gygax reader is an encyclopedaic knowledge of polearms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

-Max

Re: OT: Politics
 

Yeah, the French never quite forgave us for invading during the '40s. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Politics
 

I think you were trying to bait me in that other thread. The reason I did not respond was pretty simple. I have found over the years that people who criticize or hate this country would criticize or hate this country if it was 72 degrees outside and pineapples and sugar were the major industries.

You either like the United States or you don't. If our country changed to accommodate the desires of the vocal, those people would still find reasons to hate our country, I base this on the fact they always have no matter who has been in office nor which party the president belonged to.

To give you an example. I listened to 8 years of Clinton bashing from my family when he was president. He was the Antichrist to hear them talk about it. When Bush took office, he became the new Antichrist and Clinton became JFK and his term became Camelot.

I am a strong believer in my country. I don't prescribe to a political party because I think doing so is throwing in your lot so to speak, abandoning your own political ideas and supporting the ideas of that party instead.

Liberals will whine from birth until they are on their death beds no matter how good life has been to them. Conservatives will never show tolerance or agree to compromise in any form.

Turn off your television and start thinking for yourself. Or you will end up whiny or narrow minded the rest of your life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: OT: Politics
 

Please don't bring a topic like this here. Take it to a higher level general forum. I come here to socialize and get away from "politics". I definitely have an opinion as does everyone on this board, but I would much rather enjoy everyone's company and keep the arguments to slightly more on topic disagreements. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Politics
 

You neither have to post in this thread nor even read it if you do not want to.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I really do think this thread doesn't belong here.

Jazzepi

Re: OT: Politics
 

Despite everyone's concern, it appears there will not be any major back and forth here. The more that people post in this thread about disliking the thread, the longer it will remain on the first page of threads.

Re: OT: Politics
 

In Middle-earth Sauron is evil and the orcs are evil. When there are wars or killing between the free peoples (such as the civil war in Gondor, elven kinslayings during the First Age) those who want peace are not traitors or fools.

There are no orcs in the real world, and no Dark Lord. Some people may behave in bad ways, but they are still human. The same is true in Tolkien's writings, the men serving the Dark Lord (be it Sauron or Morgoth) have been coerced or deceived, the struggle is in part to free them from the darkness.

Re: OT: Politics
 

The biggest burden is on the shoulders of every man; to throw down the ring of war into one's own fire where it once was created, not to use its power. As it is bound to corrupt and consume even the strongest mind, leading it on a path unintended; the killing of one's brother and ultimately the destruction of oneself.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Well said.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I agree. Nicely put.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I think I contributed to this nice thread saying "US is a weird place" ... I'm not against US, but you have a strange set of values from european eyes. Only strange, that is like contradicting. We in Italy are very contradicting too, but in a different way. So you appear me very strange. Some examples? I dont want to be thrown off 'cause starting a flame war, and my english grasp is not enough good to argue in an abstract way.

Re: OT: Politics
 

When you are American, everyone is strange, especially your own countrymen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Politics
 

I like that this kind of thread is showing up. Yes, the thought of politics mixing with our fantasy escape can be a bit depressing, but it's also a good sign that we're evolving as a community, not just in relation to the game, but in relation to ourselves.

Yes it does belong here, and I hope it stays. I'll contribute what I can to keep it a civil conversation with aspirations of enlightenment, but truly, this is an example of free speech and free will. Please try to understand that such things are in real danger in the times we live in (as they always have been).

Free speech isn't a right, it's a privelage, it's one of the benefits of 500 years of bloodshed and sacrifice, and the will and strength found in the weakest, poorest, most prosecuted of people to both stand against the entire world, and change the world. Good people, people you would have liked, died for it, in droves. It's really, *really* important, and it should be protected and held sacred as a big part of what makes life worth living.

The public domain of the world will never be exactly the way you or I want it to be, and that's beautiful. If you don't like it, have the willpower to either change the channel or change your mind. Freedom comes with those kinds of choices and the responsibility to make them.

The trade-off is that, here in the U.S. you have as good a chance as anywhere in the world of living your private life exactly the way you want to.

Re: OT: Politics
 

What's the point of starting up something like this? Seems it's just gonna make folks angry for no good reason.

I mean, we've all got cultural differences, but I doubt a political thread in a game forum is the best way to understand them.

Heck, we're all strange, each in our own special way. Arguing about Iraq or global warming here ain't going to accomplish much but cause bad feelings.

I know, I don't need to post here, or read what's posted here. But maybe that should go for everybody. Viva la differance, or whatever it is the French say (those darn dirty Frogs - crap, see what happens when you start a political thread?).

Re: OT: Politics
 

Free Speech ends when you agree to post on this message board. I would not be surprised if this thread is deleted/locked, or the 2 other OT threads that were started in an attempt to get this one thrown out.

Jazzepi has already shown that if this thread is not taken care of, he intends to spam the forum with random threads pushing game related threads down the list. I would not be sorry if all 3 get locked even though I love hearing other people's opinions on politics.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I'm just making an effective point. Though I do enjoy cooking and YouTube vids.

Jazzepi

Re: OT: Politics
 

I know what your doing, and I understand your point. My point is that sometimes even when we are right, we don't always have to prove to someone that we are right. I enjoy youtube and cooking too btw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The difference between this thread and your threads is that this one branched off an OT discussion in an on topic thread. None of your threads did that. I think if you would have left well enough alone, this off topic thread probably would have been allowed to run it's course, but instead you have forced your point on to the other forum users, so I would expect that all three will get locked, instead of you just ignoring this one and everyone going about their business.

Re: OT: Politics
 

An occassional OT thread might slip thru but basically this is a Dominions3 forum, and the OTs should be in the Shrapnel General forum. The overall impression of the forum when new people come in is important.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I find it amusing that the majority of discussion in this thread has been about how horrible this thread will be. Off topic on an off topic thread. I love it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jazzepi, why you have so such hatred for this thread to go and make some point is beyond me. You are merely giving this thread more attention.

As was stated in my first post, I set this thread up so that people would not clutter up other ones with political talk. Setting it up in the general forum would be pointless, would it not? I am willing to bet that quite a few Dominions players rarely visit it.

All that being said, I hope this thread is locked. People are talking about the thread but not talking about politics, which was the purpose of the thread, and those who dislike the thread can not seem to ignore it and hope it goes away.

Oh and this will be my last post in this thread. Carry on.

Re: OT: Politics
 

HAI GUYZ I HERD SUM CRAZY STUFF IS GOIN ON IN HERE

Re: OT: Politics
 

I don't understand, it's an ot thread and then? SEIV forum is full of ot thread, whre there is a community even the ot are normal. I really don't think how someone could be hurted by an ot politics thread.
Oh, I have just seen the ot thread spamming ... bah ... childish.

Re: OT: Politics
 

I do not hate the thread. I do not think it belongs here though.

Jazzepi

Re: OT: Politics
 

Oh, I doubt Tolkien has anything to do with it. Over here he is probably the epitome of Right Wing. Much as he may have denied it, there are several political themes in his work (such as the scouring of the shire in ROTK - written at a time when socialist/soviet rebellion was a very real danger).
As for his black & white viewpoint, I've seen that been put down to Catholicism (he's less subtle than CS Lewis, but the basic moral structure is similar).

I can see why Fantasy gamers would be considered more liberal (at least in the US) than the conservative traditional wargamers though. The whole magic and gods thing is probably a main contributary factor - the church has problems with such things, which means the more conservative Christians (over here most conservative Americans are usually seen as being Christian too, though I don't know if that's a stereotype or accurate) would likely also have an issue with such things.

Mind you, having said that I do know people who simply alter the basis of magic and similar in their games. I know of one Christian group who replaced the D&D magic system with one based on their faith (i.e. spells became 'miracles' or angelic gifts).

Re: OT: Politics
 

Well, okay, what effect does/should politics have on dominions 3?

Disclaimer: I am wasted. Like, european grade wasted, because I didn't have to drive home (I live in NYC.) FREEBIRD! In may parts of this country, you can't get this drunk without being arrested. Why? Because this is a blue state and we love freedom.

So, we ask - what effect did politics have on medieval wars? Especially medieval *religious* wars? How can we work political effects into the game without a major engine rewrite?

Disclaimer: One time in Austin, I got really wasted and puked, not on, but *near* a cop. He got some splatter, that's my point. But he was pretty cool, I was with this girl (can't remember her name was, it was cinco de mayo but she wasn't really mexican, guatamalan or something), anyway, the cop was cool, much cooler than NYDP would have been, he was all like "fine, take him home if that's what you want to do" to the girl. Austin is a pretty blue town, but definitely a red state, so perhaps I'm bigoted.

Anyhoo, politics had *huge* impact on religious wars, especially in europe. The 30 years war wasn't really a religious war, it was a political war that used religion as a proxy.

So, especially in the late era, when religion becomes something more than just a proxy for tribal affiliation, it's reasonable to have a large number of political units - inquisitors and stealth preachers, particularly, but also deacons and even outright komisars. The major european LA powers (Marignon and Ulm) already have such units, but there's more to it than that. Any suggestions about how to handle this game-mechanically?

Re: OT: Politics
 

You are wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Also, less subtle than C.S. "Aslan is Jesus!!!" Lewis?

Re: OT: Politics
 

Meant to say "more subtle". I blame Eurovision http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Politics
 

Aslan was a big lion who talked.

Some people see Jesus' face in potato chips. Now I realize that it was C.S. Lewis's point that Aslan was supposed to be Jesus, but maybe the potato chip company is really religious too.

It's all in how you interpret these things.

Re: OT: Politics
 

Do we have to get in to religion in the politics thread?

Re: OT: Politics
 

I would have said "in most countries, yes".
But lately its been the US also so... yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Politics
 

Just FYI: I am a conservative, Bible-believing Christian who happens to love Dominions 3. No, pretending to be a demigod in a computer game does not bother me, nor do I believe that it offends God. God is easily smart enough to tell the difference between reality and fiction. For similar reasons, I am also a Harry Potter fan....

Now back to your irregularly-scheduled OT thread!

Re: OT: Politics
 

SlipperyJim,

Fair enough--I'm Christian as well--but looking at the history of D&D it's still a valid observation that the, uh, more fundamentalist (evangelical?) Christians are less likely to be a fan of simulating pagan religious warfare. And fundamentalism is a form of conservatism, so IMHO Archonsod's point is valid.

-Max

Re: OT: Politics
 

I think that the MegaGame might show us that game of politics is going to become a major factor in Dominions 3.