Some random thoughts
 

ATGMs, especialy the TA variety, are a ***** to deal with. That is just one of the problems that MBTs face (winSPMBT, I am not talking about real life). Even the MBTs that have some kind of defense system, they more and more feel like a waste of points. Even if you abandon the MBTs and get some lighter solutions that also serve as APCs, their cost is high enough to barely make it much better, plus the risk of losing the vehicle and the troops inside. Going infantry only isn't much better, with even light mortars being able to obliterate them, you just need to have vehicles.
So, is the answer a combination of very cheap APCs and cheap tanks with occasional specialised forces like scout/snipe with good Vision, and ATGMs?

Of course you then get in the 200 units limit if talking about PBEM campaigns, but still...

Re: Some random thoughts
 

The solution is combined arms the vehicles protect the infantry, the infantry spot the ATGMs. The MMG & arty deal with the ATGMs. Vehicles of course generally only move at full speed in areas that have been checked & its safe to do so. You just adapt to the threat but of course things still go bang.

Re: Some random thoughts
 

Modern warfare really requires scouting more than ever before. (To include helos etc). But caution rules the day if the OPFOR is about your level of technology, or better.

Or simply adopt the Soviet model and advance behind a barrage of off-map arty. Worked in the GPW, still works today if you keep the media away. (500 VP for a CNN camera crew? :evil:)


Andy

Re: Some random thoughts
 

:laugh: @ camera crew

but wuts GPW:?:

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I'm a big fan of the Soviet model. There's a reason my signiture is what it is :mean:.

Wdll, in regards to the problem at hand, I can relate. I can't stand those little units that are impossible to see and yet can destroy your shiny stuff with a single shot. I agree with with Imp, that combined arms are the key to keeping ALL of your units alive and functioning by the end of the battle. A while ago, I posted on the SPWW2 forum about unsupported tanks, which produced a lot of good combined arms tips. Here's the tread - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42493. The ultimate thing that I have to remember is patience and self control.

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GPW = Great Patriotic (anti-fascist) War

Andy

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Also known as World War II.

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Have you seen their ratings lately? I'd give them 150 VP at most (except maybe 250 for Robin Meade). ;)

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You have just described, in my opinion, the main detraction from SPMBT. The biggest reason many play this game is to get heavy tank action. Hence the name, Steel Panthers Main Battle Tank. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the hardcore tank action that some look for is almost proscribed in post 20th century battles because of size 0 TI ATGMs. These weapons system platforms (especially top attack) should be, in my opinion, increased in cost by at least 50%,

Yours Truly,
Andrew Nault

Re: Some random thoughts
 

Well the original name was: SP "How_Easy_It_Is_To_Burn_A_Main_Battle_Tank"
but it was too long and had to be shortened! :D:D:D

Personally I find the armor vs AT or ATGM issue one of the more interesting and "educational" aspects of the game (and probably a main real life operational / tactical problem). There is no "Superman" in the game. BTW you can always find combinations of nations and time-frames were the AT/ATGM assets of one side are not "adequate" to deal with the armor of the other side. But even then, an infantry close assault may kill the "Superman" MBT.
As the game is now, you're faced with questions and choices such as where to use my arty (front line "softening" or disruption of the "rear" elements ie counter batterry duty), infantry advancing in front, with, or even behind the tanks, close air support in the begining, middle or end phase of game, etc.
When a game offers you choices, it's a "strategy" game (in the commercial sense), when it offers you targets it's a FPS/arcade one. Peronally I prefer the first variety.

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SPWW2 is named Steel Panthers: World War 2. By your logic people would be buying that game expecting politics and economics but strangely enough both games are subtitled "Combined Arms Tactical Combat" It doesn't say anything about "armoured combat" does it? Now.. if we had subtiled them " Games of armoured combat" you might have a point but we've been telling people since we first started modding the games in 1998 that Combined Arms was going to be our focus

What does the first line of the first paragrah of the Game guide say ""

It doesn't say anything about "armoured combat" does it?

We have told people for years these are no longer " tanky " games and the whole point of a "relatively" cheap man portable ATGM is that it CAN chew through the armour of a "relatively" expensive armoured vehicle and they hand them out like that to the infantry so those bright shiny tanks don't run roughshod over them and if you, as the attacker come charging over a hill without a "Combined Arms " force then they will quite happily kill your bright shiny tanks but had you lead with infantry or armoured infantry you would have found those AT teams and dealt with them the way they are supposed to be dealt with BEFORE your tanks were exposed to the danger.





Don

Re: Some random thoughts
 

I would like to make a minor addition to my post; I still consider SPMBT a enjoyable game to play even with the AFV relegated to support status. I have learned to live with this fact and have adopted a combined arms approach that minimizes losses to AFVs and maximizes losses to infantry (because infantry are cheaper its better to lose them. The combined arms approach works if you have something like a Merkava in modern times. This approach also works if you simply prefer to play in premodern times before TI ATGMS become a threat.

As for fighting size 0 TI ATGMS with aging soviet bloc "shiny toys" (that have been upgraded) I have not figured out a way that works to protect them while still deploying them in battle.

If someone has then I would very much appreciate hearing how to deal with it:)

Sincerely,
Andrew Nault

Re: Some random thoughts
 

My mistake about the name

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I think the cost of these & modeling are fine, late era ones are expensive & compared to armour they have serious problems.
Limited shots
Poor mobility
Very vulnerable to suppression or the loss of a man.

The early ones are not very good more a deterent than a threat lucky to get a 50% hit rate technology moves on & they become very dangerous.
They are the modern equivelant of an ATG & guess what over the years they have improved to be a bigger threat.
But in some ways they are worse than ATGs, low rate of fire & ammo with a small team get a man or lightly suppress them & they can't fire it. Because of this arty on likely areas often means they can't function. Also while the easy way to find them is when one takes a shot its rare unless the firer moves them to safety they will ever get off a second unless of course they can't destroy your vehicle when you might let them. That makes the cost just about right 4 ammo & they still do not get to use them all without putting some thought in to it.
Without them tank tactics would be far easier because just like ATGs before them charging about with vehicles gets em killed & from a game point of view while combined arms seems far easier in MBT than WW2 due to several factors it is also harder in some ways due to others like ATGMs. If anything I think it is the infantry who have a tougher time of it in MBT compared to WW2 rather than the vehicles. Maybe thats because my infantry multi role taking on & worse finding most threats but they do it because they rule the battlefield. Generalising but a normal game poor old foot slogger takes heavy losses gets an area relativly safe big boys help out losses virtualy stop & we move on. Its not RTS charging about without engaging brain only has one result.

Re: Some random thoughts
 

Easy answer. Plenty of artillery, area fire and scouting (including by heavy choppers).

Don't make the mistake of firing arty AFTER you've made contact. Fire en masse at places you don't want them to be while advancing.
When advancing your force and you're fairly certain the enemy knows about them hose potential trouble spots down with area fire from all those mg's your vehicles carry. That's what they're for and believe me, few if any will run out of mg ammo. Main job of mg's in all shapes and sizes is to force the enemy into cover, ie reduce the chance of them getting of a succesful shot or even any shot. Hit chances and ROF drop when a unit gets pinned. You got the ammo so use it. Poor it into that treeline. It gets even better if you can take a round or two to position some HMG and/or MMG squads to cover your advance as their splash zones cause suppression in adjacent hexes too.

Have advance units that can spot the enemy when he does open fire. It's a win/win situation, if he opens up on your vehicles caarying the scouts with those AT units you fear then your recon units have just done their job. Make sure you have arty zeroed in close by to let go at once. If they don't fire at your scouts and wait till your main force approaches your dismounted scouts (and off course you dismounted out of sight so the enemy doesn't know about the 0-size teams) should be in or move into positions to spot the firing units. Then the big brutes can fire on the spotted opposition.

And always be prepared to spend cheaper units to fix and locate more expensive enemy units. Part and parcel of the soviet shiny toys approach.

Narwan

Re: Some random thoughts
 

MG fire is good, but 20-30 units of 100-125mm tank HE is even better for suppression. Add in a battery of 152 firing direct area fire from 3000m behind the front as well and things get interesting for any troops in that "suspicious" treeline...

The 73mm on BMP-1 is also good to add to a z-fire party, as is the 30mm autocannons on later ones.

Some of the units in your advancing phalanx may also be able to target spots 2-3 hexes into the tree line/village or whatever (depending on LOS and smoke) thus getting some deeper fires into the suspect patch.

The X-fire is of course entirely additional to the indirect assets in use to "mow the lawn" out in front of your advance. Apply liberally to anything remotely suspicious. Soviet tanks usually have 20 or so HE - so use 10-12 for the area bash, with a few kept for the fighting later.

Andy

Re: Some random thoughts
 

Very true Andy. Personally I like to make a distinction between area firing at suspicious locations, ie when I haven't made contact yet, and area firing after contact (at enemy units that have fired but are not spotted yet or those that are spotted but where the bulk of my units don't have a LOS for direct fire).

In the first case I prefer just to hose liberally with mg's as these have lots of ammo. I tend to reserve the big HE rounds for the second job. Their splash area means I can hit one of 7 hexes and still get suppression on the unit I know is out there. Usually the ammoload isn't that big for those rounds so I'm a bit more picky as to where I use them for area fire.
For me the point where I start getting a bit more conservative with area fire with the main guns (area firing on known positions and much less on possible positions) is when the HE ammo drops to 20 rounds or so. It's not a rule that's set in stone as it depends ont he total amount of suppression fire I can deliver too. I will use it if and when I need it.

Narwan

Re: Some random thoughts
 

What about multiple rocket systems? Would you say they are sufficient for the job?

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I keep those in the rear (if on-map) to fire deep area fires only, esp onto on-map arty as CB, or in the defence I use as an assault breaker esp if my troops are dug in and he is not. Shoot and scoot - they draw return fires.

Andy

Re: Some random thoughts
 

Thanks.

I don't know, I am tempted to try to play without any artillery just to see how it will go. I mean for me to not buy any.

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Wdll, that idea sounds like your taking your signiture to heart (which is probably why you have it :)). But of course what's the point of living if you don't feel alive, and coming out of that kind of battle makes you feel very alive.

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Thanks for the first rate help tactics, to be honest I almost never use z-fire, maybe once in a blue moon to suppress a unit when I know the exact hex it is in but can't see it. The sad thing is I usually end up bringing home most of my ammo after a battle, except for main rounds of course, and they sure as $hit aren't payin' me to save ammo! :D:D

Andrew

Re: Some random thoughts
 

i personaly now use z-fire alot, id rather use the ammo then bring it home :D:D

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And Z-fire becomes even more prominent as vehicle-mounted AGLs now create blast circles :)

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Over all IMHO MBT shows what happens when techinally (more or less) equal and well trained and commanded nations go at it, much carnage will ensue for both sides. I've fought some battles of late where each side was lucky to have a few guys with sticks and stones left!!:hurt::re: OK but you know what I mean!!;)

Bob out:D

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Yeah, they were fun. :)

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Do you guys consider using z-fire for single player cheating or unsportsmanlike:D behavior because the AI can't reciprocate (except with air)? What about the fire filter and ammo resupply? I don't like the feeling I get when I do something I know the AI isn't allowed to do:cold: What are your thoughts on this, guys? There was once a time when I needed to use every advantage to beat the 'ol AI, but now I just feel sad doing this. Its like the Batman beating up a 12 year old with special needs, but not even doing that fairly instead relying on trickery.
:jaw:
:D:tough::ahh:
Andrew

P.S. Not to sound proud, (you all could beat me PEBM), I rarely use better equipment then the AI because I believe that the burden of skill should rest on the man.

Re: Some random thoughts
 

I have stopped resupplying my artillery when playing against the AI (and considering doing it for the PBEM games too). I am not sure what you mean single player cheating with the z-fire.
If you want to have some fun, play campaign (10 battles) against 3 different opponents, single battles can get a bit boring. Try to get decisive victories all the time.

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The AI cannot deliberately use suppressive fire (z-fire) against unspotted units like us human beings can;), except of course with the use of airplanes, and that isn't, strictly speaking, using z-fire.

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I don't see how using the z-fire is a "cheat" then. Oh well. I would consider a "cheat" one AI severe (IMO) problem. The placement of its SAM sites and in general the usage of its air defences. I am finding myself trying hard not to obliterate its air defences in the first 3-4 turns.

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You don't see how, or you don't agree with me? I can explain further if you don't understand me, but if you simply disagree with me thats fine too, we simply have a difference of opinion:)

I'm not saying its a cheat per se, just something that the AI cannot use back against the human player so in that way it is like a cheat.

Andrew

Re: Some random thoughts
 

Do you mean its too easy to take them out?

Andrew

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I can see it as a problem, but not to the level of "cheat".


Yes, too easy, not because of technology/weapons quality, but of placement by the AI.

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Oh Yes they sure were!!:up::up: BTW if you don't want to use resupply just say the word, E me at i'm about to get off work and setup our next fray!!

Bob out:D

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I completely agree with you in that regard. The AI simply refuses to fight from cover to cover, its as if it doesn't care if it fights from rough (best cover) or clear (worst cover). Seeing this over and over again of the AI trying to make stands on clear when the next hex is rough troubles me. kind of reminds me of the Japanese sending suicide charges across open ground when they could used their manpower more effectively, Letters from Iwo Jima. Or Russian frontal assaults Enemy At The Gates

Andrew

Re: Some random thoughts
 

I've been playing a REALLY long campaign as the Iraelis v. Syria, Egypt, and the PLO. 200 battles from 1948 to 2020. I'm currently in May '77. It's been a very interesting and learning experience. I play each game over until I can get a decisive victory. I've had to adjust tactics as new weapon systems become available to me or the AI. It has helped me to understand better how each kind of unit contributes to the battlefield. Of course, the AI "lemming charge" is still the same. Probably the best games are the assaults on the AI. Maybe I'll be ready for a human opponent soon.

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200 battles campaign? DAMN!!!

If you are looking for an opponent for PBEM campaign I might be available. One of my opponents has disappeared.
I am average to perhaps slightly good player, if you are interested, private message me.