.com.unity Forums - Map Forge Preview

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.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)

- Dominions 3: The Awakening (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=138)

- - Map Forge Preview (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43934)

Ballbarian

September 12th, 2009 09:13 PM

Map Forge Preview

I needed a change of pace so I have slapped together a quick preview video of my current project just for fun. Note that Map Forge is a map editor, not an image editor.

More info to come. :)

(For a better view go to YouTube and click on the red "HD" to watch in high definition.)

Part 1
Shows general overview of the editor. Includes changing background image, zoom, center view, some UI elements, unit selection, commander editing and unit palettes.

Part 2
Shows more UI elements, map navigation, terrain editing, forts, labs, temples, color selection, victory points, site selection, nation editing, custom UI options and code editing. This one is a little more chopped up as I was trying to fit a lot of items in a short time frame. There is much more that I did not show, but hopefully this will give a sense of the progress so far.

(Thanks to everyone for the encouraging words!)

Foodstamp

September 12th, 2009 09:50 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Very Cool!!!

chrispedersen

September 12th, 2009 10:26 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Amazing. Absolutely amazing Balbarian. *****!

NTJedi

September 13th, 2009 01:05 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Awesome_NESS

OmikronWarrior

September 13th, 2009 03:22 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

So, is this thing just of hex maps, or can it be used to turn any image into a map?

Executor

September 13th, 2009 04:06 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Thanks for putting the song and artist, I was just about to ask what was that. :)

Ballbarian

September 13th, 2009 08:33 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

OmikronWarrior,
Any image (tga or rgb).

Executor,
You have probably already found it, but here is Manolo Camp's site. :)

djo	September 13th, 2009 08:38 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

What technology are you using to develop this? Is it cross-platform?

Foodstamp

September 13th, 2009 08:53 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by djo (Post 709986)

What technology are you using to develop this? Is it cross-platform?

Looks like he used VB or C#. If that is the case, no linux or mac.

Ballbarian

September 13th, 2009 11:42 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

It is being developed in VB6. I strongly considered Python, but Boa (for GUI development) felt very awkward after about 12 years of experience with VB. Since VB has been around so long, I would assume that most of it's features would be supported by crossover software like Wine.

djo,
Have you had any experience with Wine or something like it and running VB6 apps on mac?

Anyhow, MF would not be anywhere near this close to completion if I were developing it in Python at least until I become more proficient with it. You know what they say about old dogs and new tricks. :p

djo	September 13th, 2009 12:35 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

I've never played with wine or crossover much. I have no idea whether VB apps run or not. (Anyone else know?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballbarian (Post 709999)

It is being developed in VB6. I strongly considered Python, but Boa (for GUI development) felt very awkward after about 12 years of experience with VB.

Python does not, as far as I can tell from a survey a couple years ago, have a really decent visual editor for GUIs for any of the GUIs Python supports. I just do my GUIs by hand.

NTJedi

September 13th, 2009 01:05 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballbarian (Post 709937)

There is much more that I did not show, but hopefully this will give a sense of the progress so far.
(Thanks to everyone for the encouraging words!)

Excellent stuff... what timeframe when the first release will be ready? (1 week? ; 3 weeks? )

Foodstamp

September 13th, 2009 02:00 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

I've not been able to get VB stuff to run in linux with WINE, but I doubt that it is impossible. Sometimes to get things to work in linux you need a PhD in computer science, and this may be one of the things that will work but is beyond my level of experience.

Ballbarian

September 13th, 2009 06:46 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 710012)

Excellent stuff... what timeframe when the first release will be ready? (1 week? ; 3 weeks? )

Not sure at this point. Right now I am in bug squishing mode. Trying to finish up known items on my to-do list and periodically working on the map in the video to flush out as many bugs as possible before the initial release.

:bug::bug::bug:
:bug::eek::bug:
:bug::bug::bug:

Lingchih

September 14th, 2009 01:17 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

You could always run your intel Mac under Windows or Linux, to edit the map, and then run Dom under the Mac OS.

Foodstamp

September 14th, 2009 07:26 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Yeah, I run winders stuff under winders now and then dual boot into linux. But many people probably don't have the money to run winders unless it came with their system. Fortunately, I have access to the MSDN library for a few more months so all Microsoft software is free :).

djo	September 14th, 2009 04:19 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foodstamp (Post 710101)

But many people probably don't have the money to run winders unless it came with their system.

(emphasis mine)

Or, more importantly, the desire.

(Windows, :doh:)

NTJedi

September 14th, 2009 07:26 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballbarian (Post 710058)

Right now I am in bug squishing mode. Trying to finish up known items on my to-do list and periodically working on the map in the video to flush out as many bugs as possible before the initial release.

I thought of a feature which you might be interested in providing for the map forge. What about a copy and paste province contents? If someone wants to copy the contents from one province to another province it can be done with two easy clicks.

This way if someone wanted to create half a map of only hoburg population types and hoburg independents then it could be accomplished much more quickly. This would also save time for someone who wanted to setup 10 identical provinces in the center of a map.

Ballbarian

September 14th, 2009 10:43 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Way ahead of you NT, but ideas and suggestions of that sort are welcome. :cool:

You can also save province templates and unit palettes that can be recalled and applied in other map projects.

NTJedi

September 20th, 2009 05:02 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballbarian (Post 709937)

Note that Map Forge is a map editor,

I've setup several of my lore masters to assist you... how's the progress?

I'll be happy with the current build. :D

Ballbarian

September 20th, 2009 08:43 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

I am near completion of a trial run. The final map will be called Highways & Strongholds. Through this process, I am finding some obvious bugs. Once those are squished, I will release an open beta so that you can break it. :)

The big thing for me is to make every effort to insure that anyone using the editor can rely on not losing hours of work due to a bug. So far the system seems very stable and recovery seems reliable.

Thanks for the supporting lore masters!
Research is progressing... :up:

NTJedi

September 20th, 2009 05:29 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Awesome... thanks for the update.

If one of the concerns is an individual losing hours of work then how about some autosave settings? The best options would be where the player could specify the number of autosaves(max=10?) as well as how often it autosaves. A player could then setup autosave settings of once every 20mins which cycles between 5 autosaves. SpaceEmpires_V provided a similar autosave option. Naturally the autosave file will need to be renamed if the player wishes to restore to a previous date, but it's a nice security blanket.

Ballbarian

September 20th, 2009 07:54 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

MF creates a ".ore" file with the same name as the current map. With each and every change the .ore file is updated. If at any point there is a program crash or a power outage the .ore file will remain. The next time the map is opened MF detects the .ore and asks whether or not to recover. It also uses this file to prompt the user to save or discard changes when opening another map or closing the program.

Executor

September 21st, 2009 09:52 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Completely unrelated but, Balbarian, would you happen to know some other artists like Manolo Camp with alike music to what you used in your program?

Oh, and never did thank you for the link to the website. Thanks.

Ballbarian

September 21st, 2009 01:33 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Another that I really like is Edgen.

Foodstamp

September 26th, 2009 08:05 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Hey Ball,

Hold off on releasing this for a another week please. I've got two important tests coming up and I don't want to fail! ;)

lch	September 30th, 2009 08:11 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Hi. This really looks awesome, Ballbarian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballbarian (Post 709999)

I can only speak for myself, but Wine is awkward. I'm a supporter of Python-based GUIs myself, and I'm somebody who still constructs all those dialogues with a text editor instead of ever learning to use an IDE for that, but I can of course understand that a project as ambitious as this is a bit much for a new start in Python. Here's an idea how you might make it halfway towards the new technologies and learn something new in the process: Try to develop the program in C# or VB.Net with Visual Studio. Those are the new revamped versions of those programming languages and they're really a blast to develop because they have a lot of really cool features - I never ever did Basic but I've been programming a couple of tools in C# and it's really nice. And the Mono Project has been working to get Microsoft's DotNet family cross-platform compatible, too. So in case you have a .NET program, you should be able to get a Mono-compatible version out of it, which other people can use with Mono.

The difference between Wine and Mono, as far as I am understanding it, is this: Wine has to reproduce the Win32 API so that programs can run, and a lot of the internals from Microsoft are undocumented. The .NET platform consists of new programming languages (C#/VB.NET), a .NET runtime and a set of classes, and those are standarized. Programs written in those programming languages contain bytecode which is being interpreted, like Java bytecode is being interpreted through a Java virtual machine. (But since this really is only superficial knowledge, somebody who has more of an insight in the matter may correct me on all that I'm saying here)

In any case, big props to all the work you've done. I hope that you'll find some pointers so that even old dogs can learn new tricks, too. :)

lch	September 30th, 2009 08:18 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foodstamp (Post 710025)

Sometimes to get things to work in linux you need a PhD in computer science

This is true for any operating system, I'd say. Give a smart kid a system with any OS on it, and it will reach an amount of proficiency in using it in the same time as a similar kid with another OS on it. Once you stop "playing" you'll demand that things work like they always did, of course.

Sombre

September 30th, 2009 09:17 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Long time no see lchtyosaur.

Ballbarian

September 30th, 2009 01:38 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foodstamp (Post 712106)

Hey Ball,

Hold off on releasing this for a another week please. I've got two important tests coming up and I don't want to fail! ;)

I'll give you a week and raise you one. ;)

(Hope your tests go well!)

Ballbarian

September 30th, 2009 01:51 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Thanks lch. All this time and you are the first person to peek my curiosity of the .NET tools. I will be giving it another poke when this project is finished.

(intentional pun for old programmers) :D

chrispedersen

September 30th, 2009 10:36 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Damn... reminds me of a one line game I wrote in basic. I used peek and poke to make a self modifying program.

Ages ago.

NTJedi

October 7th, 2009 02:15 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Well I've done my part for an XXXL map being developed in the AoW2 community... at least until it's my turn again. Anyone who enjoyed AoW:Shadow_Magic and is a good map maker can still join, but there's only room for one.

Anyways I have some free time and wondering if we have an ETA for the Map Forge?

Ballbarian

October 7th, 2009 07:42 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Still on schedule, so about a week. I am tempted to say two weeks because of how hectic life has become. Working a lot of overtime.

chrispedersen

October 7th, 2009 09:08 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 713711)

I'm not sure what that means Jedi, but it was funny I just picked up AoWSM and just looked at the mapeditor and made a map with it yesterday.

Synedoche!

NTJedi

October 7th, 2009 12:11 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 713740)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTJedi (Post 713711)

I'm not sure what that means Jedi, but it was funny I just picked up AoWSM and just looked at the mapeditor and made a map with it yesterday.

Synedoche!

The XXXL means extra extra extra large... the default game only offers extra large for map sizes. The mapsizer tool can be used for creating maps larger than what's available in the current game.

Foodstamp

October 9th, 2009 09:26 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

mapsizer tool? Sounds like Shadow Magic modding has come a long way. I may have to reinstall and check it out :).

Foodstamp

October 15th, 2009 06:51 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

It has been about a week and fall break is next week. Seems like a wicked awesome time to release this bad boy!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Ballbarian

October 16th, 2009 08:25 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Working on random name generation now. Using a method very similar to Squid.org and TableSmith. Following are some sample results:

MiddleEarth.nam
Rorncho
Thrór
Gamolan
Elfglas
Lóni
Faraahir
Hereasgil
Bregbeorn
Lotholan
Blangon

Lovecraft.nam
Nyarkhee
Nyahoth
Ghagha
Byalash
Ghathal
Ghataulhu
Klakhee
Kynoth
Nyarlaaten
Tsakhee

Fantasy Names.nam
Heses
Selgath
Dagcir
Dragaula
Crismas
Faary
Carssol
Selvyr
Larbìn
Gromwug

Orc Names.nam
Shurlak
Glubghothga
Gubgar
Shazrake
Dushlak
Snatrack
Muggad
Farbarrack
Gratdarg
Dulbak

Town Names.nam
Highlin
New Norham
Nightburg
Millerant
Mount Woodstock
Firpoint
Low Wellby
Dunbury
Fort Whiteland
West Elkham

Organizations.nam
Coven Of The Shard
Wanderers Of The Rose
Diamond Band
Yellow Mountain Cult
Sisters Of The City
Guild Of The Helm
King Watchers
Lost Order
Chromatic Bats
Keepers Of The Spider

Member Provinces.nam
Holdings Of Burnsaber
North Foodstampville
Trumanatorham
Jimmorrisonbourne
Heath Of Agrajag
South Paxhold
Steppe Of Elmokki
East Adeptant
Honeybadgerey
West Lchland

Foodstamp

October 16th, 2009 12:19 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

HAH! Ironically I really am from a small town called "Holdings of Burnsaber".

Illuminated One

October 16th, 2009 12:33 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Does the program include a tool to distribute sites randomly/deterministically?
Say I wanted all forest province to have the same site? Or a random nature site?
If not you could maybe add a plugin compability (i.e. that you can run a program, dll or script on the map that does such things).

chrispedersen

October 16th, 2009 01:41 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Oooooh ..

May I request the Crisp Marches?

other ideas?
the neverending warrens?
The East/West Balbarians

(A (bad) pun... japanase would say balbalian.. so the east/west is balbarian...).

The lands of the Corograve Muskrats.
The Jaspar Conclave
The Meteoric Qatara

Ballbarian

October 16th, 2009 02:28 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminated One (Post 714924)

Not currently.
It should be simple enough to add plugin support. Would it be enough to pass command line parameters to an external app? Like map name and province count? What would you like to see?

Ballbarian

October 16th, 2009 02:35 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 714932)

You will be able to create your own custom .nam files. Below is the script for "Member Provinces.nam":

Code:

# Member Province Names

#

# Created for use with Map Forge by Ballbarian



:Start

1-2,[Member][Space][Obj]

3-4,[Member][Pos][Obj]

5-6,[Obj][OfThe][Member]

7-8,[Obj][Plural][OfThe][Member]

9-10,[Member][Pos][Obj][Plural]

11-15,[Affix][Space][Member][Suff]

16-20,[Member][Suff]





:Space

1, 



:Pos

1,'s 



:Plural

1,s



:OfThe

1, of the 

2, of 



:Obj

1,land

1,plain

1,field

1,prairie

1,home

1,fort

1,hold

1,horizon

1,Dell

1,Grassland

1,Sod

1,Meadow

1,Holding

1,Pasture

1,Range

1,Terra

1,Parkland

1,Steppe

1,Veldt

1,Flatland

1,Flat

1,Heath

1,Moor

1,Moorland

1,Plateau

1,Overland

1,Passage

1,Vale



:Member

1,Gandalf

1,Endoperez

1,llamabeast

1,Edi

1,Kristoffer

1,Johan

1,Sombre

1,lch

1,Alneyan

1,HoneyBadger

1,vfb

1,PashaDawg

1,chrispedersen

1,quantum_mechani

1,NTJedi

1,Ironhawk

1,Zeldor

1,Xietor

1,Nerfix

1,Aezeal

1,Lingchih

1,JimMorrison

1,archaeolept

1,Graeme Dice

1,Boron

1,Daynarr

1,Saber Cherry

1,MaxWilson

1,WraithLord

1,thejeff

1,Jazzepi

1,Taqwus

1,Arralen

1,DrPraetorious

1,Meglobob

1,Baalz

1,Richard

1,mac5732

1,Shovah32

1,Velusion

1,DonCorazon

1,rdonj

1,Foodstamp

1,Gregstrom

1,Agrajag

1,Strider

1,Tifone

1,Executor

1,Dedas

1,Argitoth

1,Ballbarian

1,Lazy_Perfectionist

1,Mindi

1,ano

1,Reverend Zombie

1,Annette

1,Micah

1,Burnsaber

1,Omnirizon

1,Morkilus

1,KissBlade

1,licker

1,Twan

1,Calahan

1,Folket

1,Hadrian_II

1,CUnknown

1,Amos

1,Tuidjy

1,Jurri

1,Amhazair

1,GrudgeBringer

1,AreaOfEffect

1,Trumanator

1,PhilD

1,calmon

1,Wrana

1,Azselendor

1,cleveland

1,Tim Brooks

1,Edratman

1,Bwaha

1,sum1lost

1,Psycho

1,Tyrant

1,johnarryn

1,Illuminated One

1,Sheap

1,jimkehn

1,djo

1,konming

1,Valerius

1,Squirrelloid

1,JaydedOne

1,Frozen Lama

1,Turin

1,VedalkenBear

1,Humakty

1,Hellboy

1,Jarkko

1,Pax

1,sector24

1,Juzza

1,RamsHead

1,BandarLover

1,paradoxharbinger

1,Psientist

1,Poopsi

1,coobe

1,Beorne

1,Quitti

1,OmikronWarrior

1,Tolkien

1,Jack_Trowell

1,Torin

1,SlipperyJim

1,Fantomen

1,Horst F. JENS

1,zepath

1,elmokki

1,das123

1,Panpiper

1,Adept

1,LDiCesare

1,DakaSha

1,vladikus



:Affix

1,east

1,high

1,lake

1,low

1,mount

1,new

1,north

1,old

1,port

1,south

1,west

1,fort



:Suff

1,abbey

1,ant

1,arbor

1,bank

1,bluff

1,bourne

1,bridge

1,brook

1,burg

1,bury

1,by

1,caster

1,chester

1,cord

1,cot

1,crest

1,dale

1,dell

1,den

1,don

1,down

1,dun

1,end

1,ey

1,fall

1,field

1,ford

1,fort

1,gard

1,garth

1,gate

1,glen

1,green

1,grove

1,ham

1,haven

1,head

1,hill

1,hold

1,hurst

1,ia

1,ing

1,ington

1,keep

1,lan

1,land

1,ley

1,lin

1,march

1,mark

1,marsh

1,mead

1,mere

1,minster

1,mond

1,mont

1,moor

1,more

1,mouth

1,park

1,point

1,port

1,ridge

1,shire

1,stead

1,stock

1,ston

1,ter

1,ton

1,town

1,vale

1,view

1,ville

1,wall

1,way

1,well

1,wich

1,wick

1,worth

Illuminated One

October 16th, 2009 05:15 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballbarian (Post 714936)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminated One (Post 714924)

Not currently.
It should be simple enough to add plugin support. Would it be enough to pass command line parameters to an external app? Like map name and province count? What would you like to see?

Yeah, that would be completely fine. I think maybe along the lines of save as a temp file, start app with command line (temp file name + whatever is helpful, maybe number of provinces or memory offsets), wait and reload it to see the changes immediately.
But having the functions inbuilt would be a lot better. :p

Ballbarian

October 18th, 2009 02:24 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Random commander & province name functionality appears to be working well. :)

Now toying with some rough tool scripting support. Nothing fancy, but here are some sample scripts:

Code:

=====================================

Sample script: "MarkNoStartTool.mfs"



# Mark all provinces nostart

:TOOL

  Mark all NoStart

:SELECT ALL PROVINCES

:THEN

  nostart = TRUE





=====================================

Sample script: "NoIndependentsTool.mfs"



# Make NI map (No Independents)

:TOOL

  Make NI Map

:SELECT ALL PROVINCES

:THEN

  poptype = 99



=====================================

Sample script: "MuddySeasTool.mfs"



# Make seas unattractive

:TOOL

  Muddy Seas

:SELECT PROVINCES WHERE

  tsea = TRUE

:THEN

  #kill is equiv to #land (clears province)

  kill = TRUE

  poptype = 99

  population = 0

The above scripts will likely come with MF. The following sample just gives a broader picture of what should be possible:

Code:

=====================================

Sample script: "SampleTool.mfs"



#sample script...

#comment line is ignored

:TOOL

  Sample Tool

:SELECT PROVINCES WHERE

  tplain = TRUE

  nostart = FALSE

:THEN

  #province data modified

  knownfeature = 268

  temple = TRUE

  lab = TRUE

  nostart = TRUE



:SELECT PROVINCES WHERE

  tforest = TRUE

:THEN

  #commander added to province

  comtype = 521

  comname = "Bob"

  bodyguard = 433

  bodyguardcount = 12

  item = "Thunder Whip"

Still a work in progress, but the idea is for you to be able to write your own simple tools and have them appear in a menu within Map Forge. Additional language elements may appear depending upon time and ease of implementation. I hope to be able to add simple functions for random selections. For example: 10-12 bodyguards, commander type 521,262,333 etc.

Thoughts?

NTJedi

October 18th, 2009 09:32 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballbarian (Post 715102)

Random commander & province name functionality appears to be working well. :)

I hope to be able to add simple functions for random selections. For example: 10-12 bodyguards, commander type 521,262,333 etc.

Thoughts?

The random commander(s) for provinces is a great idea. :up:
Allow the map maker to choose how many random commanders (1 thru 9). Perhaps a future version can include random equipment for the random commanders... yet some items such as the assassin heart and bane venom charm should not be included in the random list. Low_Random means 0 thru 2 random items, Medium_Random means 1 thru 4 random items or less, High_Random means 2 thru 6 random items and Max_Random means 3 thru 8 random items.

In regards to the bodyguards 10-12 seems high unless it's a powerful mage. A normal commander should probably have 1 or 2 bodyguards, a mounted commander 2 or 3 bodyguards, and mages 3 bodyguards for each mage level.
And each commander should have a 2% chance of having magic paths where 75% are level_1, 10% are level_2, 7% are level_3, 4% are level_4, 2% are level_5 and 2% are level_6 or higher.

Hope these ideas are helpful. :)

chrispedersen

October 19th, 2009 09:10 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

+++

Hmm, even better than random would be random from a list of good ideas - ie., like some of the choices you and gandalf have originated.

Foodstamp

October 30th, 2009 11:19 AM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Hey Ball,

I was curious about the map you are using in the video. It looks like a map from Battle for Wesnoth. I was wondering how you extracted the map from the game. Also, did you have to manual insert the white dots for the provinces or is that a feature in the Map Forge, allowing you to specify where the provinces are? If you did do it manual, how did you map out the hexes to place the dots?

Thanks!

NTJedi

October 30th, 2009 02:16 PM

Re: Map Forge Preview

Any chance the map forge tool is ready?

Perhaps we can at least have the beta version, thus if something draws you away from Dominions_3 the community will at least have the current map forge tool.
Things which may unexpectedly drag you away from Dominions_3:
Another game, computer hardware failure, death/illness, career change, etc., etc.,

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